Fireplace questions for a new user

[john5612]

New to the world of wood burning. Bought my 1970s ranch home 5 years ago. I have a large masonary chimney combining my oil heat and fireplace. Both are obviously separated the oil chimney side is lined with a cap and the the fireplace is just capped to keep the animals and water out. I've burned a few fires since we bought the house but with projected heating oil costs I'm hoping to use the fireplace more to help with heat. My fireplace has a metal liner with a opening of 40" wide by 28 1/2" hieght. My questions are : when I build a fire sometimes I get smoke in the house (yes damper is open). I can't find any information online about this steel lined firebox and was wondering if its good idea to get glass doors for the fireplace to not only make it safer but to help keep the heat. Obviously the doors would be open when the fire is burning hot but when the fire gets low and I go bed I'd like to close the doors and keep the warmth and not worry or have the heat in the house rolling up the chimney.

So I guess what I'm asking here is it safe to buy a glass and screen cover for my large steel lined firebox fireplace?

 

[stoveliker]

A glass screen will not be very effective in keeping the heat in and cold out. It's just not air tight enough.
(And if it is tight enough to smother the fire, but not really air tight, you may get carbon monoxide in your room.)

Also, fireplaces generally are a net heat loss. When you have a fire, the room may feel warmer, but the amount of air going up through the chimney is laaaarge, and all that has to be made up by leaking in through cracks, doors, windows etc. That means the same amount of cold air is coming in. Farther laying rooms that do not get the heat from the fireplace will thus get colder. (Unless the thermostat for the oil heat is in one of those farther rooms, which will result in the oil heat coming on MORE when you are having a fire.)

When you don't have a fire, (oil)heated air disappears up the chimney in decent amounts too. Even if the damper is closed. There are gaps around the damper. Think of a gap like that into your attic, and think how much air can escape (or cold air enter) through such gaps.

So, a fireplace is the best for ambiance: fire, sound, radiant heat if you are close enough. It is not at all good for heat.

If you want to decrease the oil bill, I suggest to get an insert or freestanding stove. These are a net gain rather than a net loss.
If you want the ambiance, keep the fireplace.

My $0.02

 

[EbS-P]

When did you last have it cleaned and inspected? We burned out fireplace for one season. It had glass doors and they did a better job at keeping smoke out of the house but you have to open them at some point. And then came the smoke. We switch to a stove and are much happier and almost zero smoke. I’m pretty sensitive.

 

[Marconis]

As someone who utilizes the fireplace for ambiance/pleasure and not for heat, I can tell you that your fireplace is only going to make the room that it’s in warmer by a couple of degrees. While that’s happening, heat is being drawn from the rest of the house and up and out of the chimney. Our thermostat goes up several degrees when the fireplace is in use and our gas heat therefore never clicks on. And, you have to leave the damper open until the coals stop smoldering, which makes the room freezing.

 

[begreen]

Can you post a picture of the full fireplace so that we can possibly see options?

 

[GrumpyDad]

New to the world of wood burning. Bought my 1970s ranch home 5 years ago. I have a large masonary chimney combining my oil heat and fireplace. Both are obviously separated the oil chimney side is lined with a cap and the the fireplace is just capped to keep the animals and water out. I've burned a few fires since we bought the house but with projected heating oil costs I'm hoping to use the fireplace more to help with heat. My fireplace has a metal liner with a opening of 40" wide by 28 1/2" hieght. My questions are : when I build a fire sometimes I get smoke in the house (yes damper is open). I can't find any information online about this steel lined firebox and was wondering if its good idea to get glass doors for the fireplace to not only make it safer but to help keep the heat. Obviously the doors would be open when the fire is burning hot but when the fire gets low and I go bed I'd like to close the doors and keep the warmth and not worry or have the heat in the house rolling up the chimney.

So I guess what I'm asking here is it safe to buy a glass and screen cover for my large steel lined firebox fireplace?

You basically just described my fireplace.
My fireplace is in the center of the room, and was built with local rock (granites, sandstone, limestone, etc).
There are two metal tubes that must run against the metal insert that then vent hot air out to each side of the fireplace.
I notice using a flashlight that I get alot of smoke pouring in - whenever I put a piece of wood even anything over an inch over the fireplace grate. As long as it doesnt go beyond that, we are good. Also make sure you tighten up the burn toward the CENTER of the grate. If you have pieces of wood sitting off to the side just sitting there smoking, pull them back onto the grate and closer to the center of the fire. You can have larger pieces side to side smoking, it just seems to be when you have a smaller say 6" chunk that fell off sitting against the side wall, smoking, that will create alot of smoking coming into the house.
As far as a fireplace being a net loss, I dont know that I would agree 100% with what someone said about that. We've been without power during the winter during really cold snow storms. It takes a ton of wood, and smaller pieces that create flames heat much better.
What I do is actually stack the wood vertical, 3-4 pieces placed in the center of the fireplace grate, leaning on the back wall of the fireplace. This causes a good bit of flames and radiates some nice heat into the room. Of course I already have a nice coal bed at that point and maybe once piece in front of four pieces laying down on the grate just before the edge. The other thing I will do is use smaller pieces, and arrange them with a good bit of gaps to create more flames. I cant continue a good log cabin style burn, but I will put two pieces north to south but more like SW/NW in order for the 16" pieces to fit without going over the edge of the grate too much, then I stack pieces E-W on top of those ones. That helps create flames/embers/heat.

We were going to go with an insert, but my wife hated the fact that we wouldnt see the fire as well. With newer stoves, it seems to be normal to not see any flames at all. SO that was a no go. The fireplace stays as is. Maybe one day I will get the guts to cut out that old metal interior, try to retro fit it to be a better design, but I dont think that is going to happen honestly.

 

[begreen]

With newer stoves, it seems to be normal to not see any flames at all. SO that was a no go.

With most modern stoves one sees lots of flames unless it is a cat stove. Our stove provides a light show for hours.

 

[stoveliker]

With most modern stoves one sees lots of flames unless it is a cat stove.

With most modern cat stoves one sees lots of flames unless one runs it below the heat output range accessible to other stoves.

 

[GrumpyDad]

With most modern stoves one sees lots of flames unless it is a cat stove.

I have a cat capable stove, without the cat. Little to no flames, which are barely visible due to black glass.

 

[begreen]

I have a cat capable stove, without the cat. Little to no flames, which are barely visible due to black glass.

It sounds like that is not running or being run correctly. The glass should not be getting black. However, in this stove the secondary combustion occurs in the back of the stove in the refractory chamber, which provide much less light show.

 

[begreen]

With most modern cat stoves one sees lots of flames unless one runs it below the heat output range accessible to other stoves.

True, many are hybrids that offer some secondary combustion light show. When the cat stove is providing a good light show, it is burning similarly to a non-cat. Most pure cat stoves have a dark firebox in the shoulder seasons or at low heat output.

 

[bholler]

You basically just described my fireplace.
My fireplace is in the center of the room, and was built with local rock (granites, sandstone, limestone, etc).
There are two metal tubes that must run against the metal insert that then vent hot air out to each side of the fireplace.
I notice using a flashlight that I get alot of smoke pouring in - whenever I put a piece of wood even anything over an inch over the fireplace grate. As long as it doesnt go beyond that, we are good. Also make sure you tighten up the burn toward the CENTER of the grate. If you have pieces of wood sitting off to the side just sitting there smoking, pull them back onto the grate and closer to the center of the fire. You can have larger pieces side to side smoking, it just seems to be when you have a smaller say 6" chunk that fell off sitting against the side wall, smoking, that will create alot of smoking coming into the house.
As far as a fireplace being a net loss, I dont know that I would agree 100% with what someone said about that. We've been without power during the winter during really cold snow storms. It takes a ton of wood, and smaller pieces that create flames heat much better.
What I do is actually stack the wood vertical, 3-4 pieces placed in the center of the fireplace grate, leaning on the back wall of the fireplace. This causes a good bit of flames and radiates some nice heat into the room. Of course I already have a nice coal bed at that point and maybe once piece in front of four pieces laying down on the grate just before the edge. The other thing I will do is use smaller pieces, and arrange them with a good bit of gaps to create more flames. I cant continue a good log cabin style burn, but I will put two pieces north to south but more like SW/NW in order for the 16" pieces to fit without going over the edge of the grate too much, then I stack pieces E-W on top of those ones. That helps create flames/embers/heat.

We were going to go with an insert, but my wife hated the fact that we wouldnt see the fire as well. With newer stoves, it seems to be normal to not see any flames at all. SO that was a no go. The fireplace stays as is. Maybe one day I will get the guts to cut out that old metal interior, try to retro fit it to be a better design, but I dont think that is going to happen honestly.

Yes when the power is out and you have no other heat it will be a net gain. But if you are sucking air out of the house for the fireplace that has already been heated by some other means almost all fireplaces are net losses

 

[GrumpyDad]

It sounds like that is not running or being run correctly. The glass should not be getting black. However, in this stove the secondary combustion occurs in the back of the stove in the refractory chamber, which provide much less light show.

Im still so new to burning so I'll pass judgement for another month. When I do see flames it's when I first start my log cabin 1" split fire or for some reason they are always on the right side of the logs during a fire after kindling. When I dont see flames it is usually as you mentioned because I can see the flames feeding through the secondary combustion at the bottom/back of the brick. I can also report the 'blow torch' sound that others reported with this and other stove models. It really wasnt loud at all, it was quite low and only lasted for a bit after I opened the primary damper, and stirred/loaded a couple more smallish splits.

I seem to have glass turning blacker and blacker and it happens during two periods I believe. One is between starting a fire and getting it up to secondary temps, and that seems to be around 200-300 degrees, but the most smoke happens when I pack the stove about 1/2-3/4 full and only the bottom log is light a bit but the rest are turning to charcoal via roasting, but produce a ton of smoke that just swirls around in there. My draft is pretty good, I dont know how I could measure it without an instrument though. And the wood is nice and dry. If I carefully place (while my place fills up with smoke) logs in a manner that might product more gaps and product more flames, it seems to clear up or maybe I can just see the flames better, but then the stove gets too hot (im still trying to slowly break in and dont want to 550 for too long so I aim for 500). SO then I have to turn down the secondary to get it cooler, then the flames just disappear.

I dont think this is a good flaming stove honestly. I dont think it's anything im doing. If there is some trickery required and careful arranging vs just chucking in pieces of medium dry wood, I doubt anyone is going to go through the trouble of filling their place with smoke while carefully fiddling with the placement of wood. I could be wrong and like I said Ill wait to pass total judgement, but I dont have high hope for this. My neighbors insert is the same way, it's not a VC I cant recall what it is but the viewing window is ultra small and you only occasionally see a wick of flame here and there. But at least his glass isnt turning black.

 

[begreen]

I think when temperatures drop below say 45º outside you will notice a performance change. Draft will be stronger when there is a greater differential between the indoor and outdoor temps. It's bound to be pretty weak with 55-60º outdoor temps.

 

[begreen]

Light show in our Jotul F400

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And in the Alderlea T6

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[GrumpyDad]

Light show in our Jotul F400

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And in the Alderlea T6

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Makes me wish I went with the Jotul honestly. That's beautiful! I love how that north/south loader looks and that burn on those secondary tubes. I wonder why VC went the route they did. Seems it forces all the heat through the secondary too fast and you lose it all up the pipe. Maybe they thought it would heat a single wall pipe better and give off more heat via the pipe?
I really dont see how outside temps will help this. If anything I think the draft is too strong just based on what Im seeing with flames entering the secondary. It literally looks like a blowtorch going up there and out through the flue.

 

[begreen]

The F400 was an E/W loader. One of the reasons I went to the larger T6 was for the deeper firebox and N/S loading. That said, the F400 was a very good-looking stove.

I suggest getting a probe thermometer for the stove pipe, placed about 18" above the stove. This instrumentation will help guide operation.

PS: I have not run the Dauntless, so my information is strictly from what other owners have posted about this stove, but black glass is not a common complaint. This can occur when the stove is run too cool, or draft is weak, or the wood is not fully seasoned. Normally, it should not be an issue.

 

[bholler]

Makes me wish I went with the Jotul honestly. That's beautiful! I love how that north/south loader looks and that burn on those secondary tubes. I wonder why VC went the route they did. Seems it forces all the heat through the secondary too fast and you lose it all up the pipe. Maybe they thought it would heat a single wall pipe better and give off more heat via the pipe?
I really dont see how outside temps will help this. If anything I think the draft is too strong just based on what Im seeing with flames entering the secondary. It literally looks like a blowtorch going up there and out through the flue.

Many of us have been asking why vc makes the decisions they do for decades now

 

[stoveliker]

Indeed, I thought about wet wood after reading about black glass. @GrumpyDad says the wood is pretty dry. But how do you know?
Did you measure (on the fresh surface of a re-split piece so you see the moisture content in the middle of the split) with a moisture meter?

 

[GrumpyDad]

I have the left overs of a face cord sitting on my back deck in a rack, grabbed a few of my larger pieces and chopped them in half then let them sit inside until the next day, then I did a moisture reading and they read 18-20%. I checked my moisture meter calibration which is at 18% and it hit 18%. The reason I let them sit inside for a day was when I split them, it was raining/wet outside so I didnt want to skew the readings from my moisture meter. This wood has been seasoned for 2 years. Im running low on this wood though, I have about 3/4 of a cord left, and I have about a half of cord of rounds on my property that I need to split that have been seasoning as rounds for 2-4 years. Not optimal but where they are at , they are a PITA to drag out so I let them there. I also have about 14 cords of pine in rounds laying around, that will likely just be firewood as they have all started to rot from the outside in a good 1/8 to 1/3 into the centers. Yikes. I know pine isnt optimal but makes for good camp fire wood.

 

[bholler]

I have the left overs of a face cord sitting on my back deck in a rack, grabbed a few of my larger pieces and chopped them in half then let them sit inside until the next day, then I did a moisture reading and they read 18-20%. I checked my moisture meter calibration which is at 18% and it hit 18%. The reason I let them sit inside for a day was when I split them, it was raining/wet outside so I didnt want to skew the readings from my moisture meter. This wood has been seasoned for 2 years. Im running low on this wood though, I have about 3/4 of a cord left, and I have about a half of cord of rounds on my property that I need to split that have been seasoning as rounds for 2-4 years. Not optimal but where they are at , they are a PITA to drag out so I let them there. I also have about 14 cords of pine in rounds laying around, that will likely just be firewood as they have all started to rot from the outside in a good 1/8 to 1/3 into the centers. Yikes. I know pine isnt optimal but makes for good camp fire wood.

There is nothing wrong with burning pine in your stove

 

[stoveliker]

The moisture content is good.
Rounds often don't dry much when not split or the bark scored.

But the 18 pct wood is 18 pct now. If you burned that last year too, it may have been too wet then?

 

[GrumpyDad]

There is nothing wrong with burning pine in your stove

I agree and tell people this all the time. Where I visit in Montana that's all they generally have available. As I have an angle to my setup, I'm not sure how effective my top down sweeping will be sooooo Im trying to avoid creosote as much as possible.

 

[bholler]

I agree and tell people this all the time. Where I visit in Montana that's all they generally have available. As I have an angle to my setup, I'm not sure how effective my top down sweeping will be sooooo Im trying to avoid creosote as much as possible.

The point is pine doesn't make any more creosote than any other wood. And actually the fact that it dries faster means in many cases it will make less

 

[GrumpyDad]

The moisture content is good.
Rounds often don't dry much when not split or the bark scored.

But the 18 pct wood is 18 pct now. If you burned that last year too, it may have been too wet then?

Yes it probably was, and it was seasoned here 6+ months when I bought 'seasoned' wood.
It all sits outside uncovered in piles, and Im certain that they split it early split/summer, then sell most of it starting in the summer > late winter. And that's what people burn.

The only TRUE seasoned wood option for me is 1 hour away, and they want 900 delivered for a cord of mixed hardwood dry/covered seasoned 2 years. It's their 'wood burning stove' option. Some nice pieces of kindling, then everything is nice and square and ranges in sizes. They stack them according to size neatly. Ive seen their stuff/work, it's really nice....not 900, 600, or even 400 nice.