First time wood burner - be gentle...

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Creek-Chub

New Member
Nov 13, 2007
215
Niles, MI
Folks,

Not quite a first timer, but the extent of my indoor wood burning experience has been this season's burning in my masonry fireplace. Basically, I've had just enough time to realize that my back is going to give out from cutting and splitting wood before I get anywhere near heating my house with the fireplace. I didn't think it would be efficient, but man. This thing eats wood. Here is my situation.

Approx. 2400sf house. Masonry fireplace (33" wide x 26" deep x 25" tall, 16" hearth and about 15" up off of the floor). The fireplace is located on the wall of a 25x25 family room/addition. The rest of the downstairs contains a fairly open dining room (open to the living room) then a doorway to a kitchen, den, hall and bath. The open stairway is almost right next to the fireplace. Up the stairs and you've got two bedrooms above the living room, then down a hall to two more bedrooms and a bath.

My goal is to heat as much of the house as I can with wood, without completely burning us out of the living room. I've got two furnaces (don't ask why) that run on LP for backup, but at over $3.00 a gallon I don't want to have to run them any more than necessary. Easy, right? Throw in a big bad insert and be done with it. Unfortunately, the wife can't stand them. I got her settled on a Morsoe 5660 insert (I think that's it - the big one) since they look pretty slick, only to find that it will take some serious modifications to the fireplace to get it to fit. No dice. The Jotuls look pretty nice, but seem a bit undersized for my application. So - two questions:

1) Any other thoughts on inserts along the lines of the Morsoe and Jotul stuff? Clean, simple, and as flush as possible would be the look, but my personal criteria are a good sized firebox and at least a shot at heating the better part of 1800-2000 sf.

2) What about sticking a wood stove in there? I've seen some darn good looking stoves that fit all of my criteria, but they're stoves. I've lurked here long enough to be familiar with the idea that inserts came about after folks started sticking stoves in their fireplaces, and wanted to make them better, but them why do I still see photos of folks with new stoves stuck in their fireplaces? The look is OK in the wife's eyes, and with something to seal up the damper space it seems like they ought to be efficient. Can I do this with a flex liner? Is there any reason NOT to stick a stove in my fireplace?

I'm fairly ignorant about this stuff, but eager to learn, so feel free to educate me. All suggestions are welcome. Thanks in advance!

Nick

(oh - I can provide photos of the fireplace if it helps)

Edit:

Budget is roughly $3K at the top end. I am reasonably handy, so may consider installing it if saving the money can get me a little nicer stove. What about used? eBay? Cat versus non-cat? This should be a good thread for some of you guys to tee off on...:)
 
welcome and as, mo heat one of our moderators says, leave no post un answered the first problem you have to deal with is height 25" eliminates many large fire box types.

also by answering your post it bumps it up in the display list. free standing stoves will also be limited by the height of the opening the only mid size I can think of is the resolute Acclaim also all stoves will need to be rear collar stoves that eliminated all fixed to exit stoves.

I recently installed a Lopi Freedom bay good size fire box 2.8 cu ft that I think will fit your opening but plain jane looking steel box stove the two stove you mention are top of the line expensive stoves if you set you bar lower as your budget indicates you can still get some real decent stoves Perhaps a Pacific energy stove a regency other lopi or travis indusrtry stove a napoleon stove.

For some reason Jotul will not disclose their fire box sizes. So I can't tell you the burn times for their models but we have some members that have hands on experience

Really good luck and hopefully the gang will join in

was that gentile enough?
 
For you Elk, that was incredibly gentle... :lol:

Back to the OP....

The height will be a problem to get a large box stove into, but if you can find something, there is no reason not to put a stove in the fireplace rather than an insert if you like that look better. Some even claim that a stove will work better.

You do need to get a medium large firebox unit in there whatever you do. I would say look for something in the 2.5-3 cubic foot range. That should give you enough heat to get most of your house, not cook you out, and is about the minimum needed for good 8-10 hour burns.

Just to throw the idea out for consideration, some folks don't put a stove IN the fireplace, but instead put it in front of the fire place with the pipe running back into the fire place, or up and back into a hole drilled in the face. This is generally good for heating, but does eat up more floor space. It does give more options however.

Can you post a couple pictures of your setup, and possibly a floor plan? Is the fireplace on an interior or exterior wall? If on the exterior, is it "interior" or does it stick out the wall?

What is that 15" up hearth made from? if it's masonry all the way down, you may be able to get away with using a stove with a very short leg kit, and get more height that way.

You may need to put in some sort of extension on the floor in front of the hearth - current codes require 18" clearance in front of loading doors. However with a 15" step, this should be pretty easy, as all you will basically need is a non-combustible surface.

You can use flex, and will probably need to depending on the size of your existing flue (which is???)

Installing it your self will definitely save you money, which will give you a lot more options for picking out the stove - a $3K budget is not going to give you many choices if you want to get it installed, so you will be better off to plan on it being as much of a DIY job as possible. The good news is that installing a liner and stove is generally not to difficult, and we can probably give you plenty of guidance on getting through the process as you go along.

Used is a mixed bag - there are bargains out there, but you need to know what you are looking at, as there are also a lot of real ripoffs. You also have a fairly limited set of options so you are less likely to find something that would work for you. Never hurts to look however.

Cat vs. Non-cat is one of those classic "religious arguement" topics. Each has it's advantages. A cat may offer slightly longer burn times. A non-cat tends to offer more impressive fire displays for the flame watchers. Either will do a decent job of heating.

Hope this is helpful,

Gooserider
 
Welcome Creek Chub. Here was my solution to your situation. We had a heat a lator fireplace with masonry chimney. Raised hearth of 12" and 36"long. Had the red Roman brick and we decided it wasn't the look we wanted in the remodel. There was a huge old insert that warmed the place but it wasn't up to date or efficient. I removed the hearth and lowered the floor of the fireplace so it was flush with the room - mine was surprisingly easy to do. That gave me a huge opening to work with. We put a Hearthstone Homestead just in front of the opening, used the black metal surround to hide the rest of the opening and refaced the brick with tile. My wife is quite pleased with the outcome. The Homestead would not be an option, too small for your need, and soapstone probably wouldn't even be what you want, as I'm heating a lot less area than you. Guess I'm saying that there are/maybe some other options to look at. Good luck
 
A PE Summit will almost fit in that fireplace. It would have to be an inch and half wider. Maybe PE's next size down will fit. Ask WXman. That's what he has. You wil have to raise the hearth though.
 
Creek-Chub said:
Folks,

The fireplace is located on the wall of a 25x25 family room/addition. The rest of the downstairs contains a fairly open dining room (open to the living room) then a doorway to a kitchen, den, hall and bath. The open stairway is almost right next to the fireplace. Up the stairs and you've got two bedrooms above the living room, then down a hall to two more bedrooms and a bath.

My goal is to heat as much of the house as I can with wood, without completely burning us out of the living room. :)
Click to expand...

With the stairway right next to the fireplace you will not be burned up in the family room.... but upstairs will be roasty-toasty.

We have a similar situation but we seal off the stairwell with reinforced plastic and the entrance to the stairs looks like curtains you see in a walk in cooler. No... it is not attractive but easily put up or down so if we are entertaining we can ditch it for a day or two. There are two master bedrooms in the house, one on the main floor, so we live 99.44% on the main level.
 
Thanks for all of the help guys. In answer to the questions:

Gooserider:
My thoughts on the stove "in" the fireplace were to back it in a little, as I've seen, with the rest of it staying on the hearth, sort of half in and half out. Is that a wacky idea, given that the hearth is raised up a bit, and not level with the floor? The chimney itself is interior - located on an outside wall, but the space for it was taken from the house, not from the yard (if that makes sense). The entire chimney and hearth are masonry. Chimney face is fieldstone, and the hearth is a slab of something, possibly concrete - not really sure. It is, however, up off of the ground. I didn't measure the flue, but the smallest side of the damper is 7", if I recall correctly.

bcnu:
I'll look more closely at the hearth to see what exactly I would be getting myself into by removing it down to ground level - that said, I think we would be happier with that look than sticking a stove on top of the hearth. Thanks for the thought...

karl:
Not sure what you meant by "you will have to raise the hearth". Did you mean that the stove would be too tall to fit?

I really appreciate all of the help guys. I tend to overanalyze this stuff too much. My folks just walked into a local dealer and bought a VC Encore on a whim. I said "Cool, what size is the firebox? Catalytic or no? How many square feet is it supposed to heat?" My dad just looked at me with a dumb look on his face and said "I don't know. You put wood in it and it makes the house warm".

Bottom line - assuming I can find a stove we're happy with, given the fact that the hearth is 15 or so inches up off of the ground, is it acceptable to have a wood stove half sticking out of my fireplace and onto the hearth?
 
can it stick out of the fireplace? yup, thats what mine does. just make sure you do your homework. its hard to replace a 500 lb woodstove.
 
Creek-Chub said:
Thanks for all of the help guys. In answer to the questions:

Gooserider:
My thoughts on the stove "in" the fireplace were to back it in a little, as I've seen, with the rest of it staying on the hearth, sort of half in and half out. Is that a wacky idea, given that the hearth is raised up a bit, and not level with the floor? The chimney itself is interior - located on an outside wall, but the space for it was taken from the house, not from the yard (if that makes sense). The entire chimney and hearth are masonry. Chimney face is fieldstone, and the hearth is a slab of something, possibly concrete - not really sure. It is, however, up off of the ground. I didn't measure the flue, but the smallest side of the damper is 7", if I recall correctly.

bcnu:
I'll look more closely at the hearth to see what exactly I would be getting myself into by removing it down to ground level - that said, I think we would be happier with that look than sticking a stove on top of the hearth. Thanks for the thought...

karl:
Not sure what you meant by "you will have to raise the hearth". Did you mean that the stove would be too tall to fit?

I really appreciate all of the help guys. I tend to overanalyze this stuff too much. My folks just walked into a local dealer and bought a VC Encore on a whim. I said "Cool, what size is the firebox? Catalytic or no? How many square feet is it supposed to heat?" My dad just looked at me with a dumb look on his face and said "I don't know. You put wood in it and it makes the house warm".

Bottom line - assuming I can find a stove we're happy with, given the fact that the hearth is 15 or so inches up off of the ground, is it acceptable to have a wood stove half sticking out of my fireplace and onto the hearth?
Click to expand...

As long as it isn't hanging off the front of the hearth, no problem with a partial insert installation. This is an approach that many have used, and can work very well. An elevated hearth is not a particular problem, a lot of folks like a raised hearth because it means less bending over to load the stove, and gives a better view of the fire. It can be a bit more of a challenge to get the stove up there, but that is only a minor issue. The big problem in your case will be to find something that will work in the vertical space that you have, or to figure out a way to increase the space.

It does sound like you will need to look for a stove that can be set up to use a rear exit type vent, which will limit you considerably, as most stoves these days tend to be top exit. I know that most of the Cast Iron VC and CDW stoves can be rear vented, along with many of the Jotul's and some of the soapstones. I'm not sure if there are any rear vent steel stoves on the market right now.

Other things to watch out for -

1. If you have wooden trim around the fireplace, or a wooden mantle above it, you may need to watch the clearance to combustibles measurments. Depending on the details this can possibly limit your stove choice, require additional heat shielding or require that the woodwork be modified.

2. As mentioned, you need 18" worth of protected (non-combustible) floor in front of any loading doors - If you put the stove on the hearth, this means you will need a wider area on the floor in front of it. Again, this isn't a big issue, personally I just put an 18" extension in front of our hearth, flush with the carpeted floor, and it was pretty easy, even though I used a "random" slate covering that made it a bit trickier.

It would be helpful if you can post a couple pictures of your setup, as that will give us a better idea of what we are dealing with. A rough sketch floor plan would also be helpful.

Gooserider
 
Thanks again for all of the input. I had intended to stick with cast iron, and don't think we'll have too much trouble settling on one that is rear vented. The only think I'll have to figure out is how I want to go about meeting the 18" of non-combustible space in front of the stove. I was most concerned with whether or not this whole "stove in the fireplace" idea was silly or not. It sounds like it isn't. No wood trim around the fireplace, but I will have a mantle to contend with. I'll either have to raise it up a bit or figure out some sort of a heat shield.

My first question (okay, not the first) though is how the heck do I go about connecting the stove to the liner/flue? I'm going to have minimal clearance around it by the time I get it slid into the fireplace. Do I connect it first, before it is slid all the way in, and then pull the liner up from the top of the chimney, trim, and mount the chimney cap in place?

Oh - attached are a couple of photos so that you can see what I'm working with. Don't mind the dirty fireplace, kids toys, or un-trimmed door. We went through a very, very extensive remodel before moving in a couple months ago and I'm still working out the kinks...

RE: Floor plan. I can see if I can manage to draw something up and scan it in, but I don't have one handy to post. The fireplace is in a roughly 25x25 room, which is open to the dining room (left of the fireplace as you see it in the photos. Past the dining room is a doorway to the kitchen, a play room/den, and a bath down a hall from there. Up the stairs, around a corner, and you've got two bedrooms (directly above the room with the fireplace). Down another hall, and there are two more bedrooms and a bath. I don't really have any illusions that I can get those two bedrooms heated with the stove.
 

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Ah, pictures really help. Take a look at the Lopi Declaration brochure. This is a 3cu ft insert with a flush face. You can get some very nice trim for it. Give honey a glass of wine first and then show her the stove. It may not be what you first visualized, but I think this might work with a Wilmington face.

http://www.lopistoves.com/product_guide/detail.aspx?id=219#Specs
(look under accessories to see the Wilmington face options)
 
Funny - that's where I started, and then I saw that darned Morsoe and it got me way off track... :) Maybe I need to look at it again.
 
That Ebay stove is the original Encore cat - not a bad stove at all, they are making an only somewhat updated model to this day - it is what I'm burning. From what I can see, it looks like it's in pretty decent shape.

However it can't be used without legs (it has a fancy base unit instead of the usual leg kit) as it has an irregularly shaped bottom due to the design of it's ash drop.

There are some stoves that can be used without legs, but ONLY if they are listed for it, and provide clearances which you meet. There are also some stoves that have optional short leg kits, again subject to clearances.

Hooking up a stove in a situation like yours is one of the tougher challenges - it helps to practice by working on Asian cars and motorcycles to get used to figuring out how to get your hand and a wrench into blind spaces - include a few boxes of knuckle bandages in the budget :mad:
 
That's sort of what I thought (RE: Asian cars and motorcycles). The Jotul short leg kit only buys me 2 1/4 inches, if I recall correctly, which won't leave much room for error. I sure wish that someone hadn't posted up that new Jotul insert, because it looks pretty nice, and seems to fit the bill. At over $3.00 a gallon for propane, and an indefinite time period for delivery on that unit, I may get pushed into the Lopi insert. Decisions, decisions. Thanks a ton for the input guys - I'm sure I'll be back with some equally ignorant install questions in a few weeks... :)
 
JohnnyBravo said:
is that mantel wood? hard for me to tell. some may have clearance issues.
Click to expand...

Yep - its wood. That one will be getting replaced, but I would like to keep it in the same position if I can.
 
Creek-Chub said:
I sure wish that someone hadn't posted up that new Jotul insert, because it looks pretty nice, and seems to fit the bill.
Click to expand...

The debil made me do it :snake:
 
Creek-Chub said:
JohnnyBravo said:
is that mantel wood? hard for me to tell. some may have clearance issues.
Click to expand...

Yep - its wood. That one will be getting replaced, but I would like to keep it in the same position if I can.
Click to expand...

One approach I've seen used, which would likely work with your existing hearth is to replace the wood mantel with a slab of bluestone or other similar rock... Not a lightweight task, and might be expensive, but solves all the clearance problems.

Gooserider
 
Good idea the same one I was going to suggest and it would be perfect match to the existing stone face
Some lopi models can be either leg stand or insert type mountings the freedom bay has a 2.8 cuft firebox and should burn 8 hours plus and produce quite a bit of heat unique they can be either flush mounted or pulled out allwing more radiation heat exposed surfaces plus an optional blower The only mid six ze stove that I kno of that will fit you setup is the Resolute Acclaim
I measured my encore with the 6" flue collar and even that needs almost 28" top of flue collar I don't have the jotul spec here or Harman oakwood the deeper you install you stove the dissadvantages to top loaders or possibly any side loaders you would be confined to front loading like all inserts


you have to do more research and it might end up that only inserts less than 25" tall are your only option
 
Thanks yet again guys. Elk hit it on the head - more research!
 
Here is a low cost option for you. It may not be your best choice , but 90,000 btu/hr rated to heat 2,700 sq ft for $1000.oo & shipping from www.northentool.com

Drolet extra large epa certified, secondary combustion chamber to burn up smoke before it goes up the chimney. Yes, smoke is unburned fuel. So, this stove will use 1/3 the wood of an old fashened stove to give the same heat.

model #ht2000 ---- item #158976-1802

take a look at their website & at the stove. It is 30w x 29 1/4d x34 1/2 h @503 lbs 6"top flue.

I am thinking to save $2000.oo , I would buy a $30.oo sledgehammer and break out the bottom of your fireplace, down to floor level ; it only take 30 minutes to 1 hr to break up &
put new fireproof hearth pad or slate or tile, whatever look you fancy and stick the back of this stove under the fireplace just enough to get the flue pipe in & let the rest of the stove stick out.

www.drolet.ca may have a rear vent model, worth looking into.

Or use a elbow.

Well,this is just an low cost option, I bet the inserts you were looking at were a lot more expensive than 1000.oo

Stove has a large flame viewing glass with gold accent trim.
takes 19 in logs. 17 1/4 w x 15 h door.
 
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