I have a fisher 2 door stove in the house I Just bought. (upstairs). There was a fisher single door downstairs (open basement) which I replaced with a baker double eagle with blower. So I am burning my baker hot all day when it's cold to keep the house warm for the kids, not burning the fisher upstarts. First, which stove is more efficient overall? Are there any tweaks I can make to either one to improve it? Also would it be better for me to burn 2 stoves cooler, or the one stove downstairs hot? Should I move the fisher downstairs? Thanks guys
Fisher and Baker discussion
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mopar440_6
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Having grown up with a Baker Double Eagle and running a Baker Heat King now, I can at least throw my 2 cents in but some of the more experienced members will probably be able to give better advice. That said, neither stove is going to be nearly as efficient as the newer EPA stoves. I would think that because of the baffle setup in the Baker it would likely be better at extracting the heat from the fire but I can't speak for the Fisher without seeing it. I don't know of any tweaks but making sure you have a properly sized chimney liner for each stove would help with the draft. Burning either stove cool is likely going to create a lot of creosote buildup so I would burn one stove hot so that it is as clean a burn as possible with the older stove which will minimize the creosote buildup in the chimney. Heating from the basement is going to be inefficient (especially if it is uninsulated) no matter which way you cut it. Are the liners properly sized, insulated SS for each stove? Does the basement need to be heated or could you just heat the living area upstairs?
(On a side note I assume you attended Penn State based on the username, I graduated from PSU in 09).
(On a side note I assume you attended Penn State based on the username, I graduated from PSU in 09).
Had family that did, and I'm a big PSU college athletics fan.
I never tried burning just the upstairs stove. I havn't really burned it at all. It's a rancher, and the basement is wide open, if it matters. I'm worried about the floor being cold. I guess I won't know unless I try it. Also a lot more inconvenient to carry the wood in the house.
I never tried burning just the upstairs stove. I havn't really burned it at all. It's a rancher, and the basement is wide open, if it matters. I'm worried about the floor being cold. I guess I won't know unless I try it. Also a lot more inconvenient to carry the wood in the house.
The Fisher you removed is more efficient. If it was a Papa Bear, I'd say removing it was a big mistake. They are deep and narrow (take up to 30 inch log) with firebox more suited to the shape of wood, and burn better than loading wood across a double door stove. It's all about how much heat you need to leave up the chimney to keep the larger flue area hot compared to a smaller 6 inch flue allowing the heat to stay in the stove radiating into the home.
Single door stoves use a 6 inch flue outlet and should be connected to a 6 inch chimney flue all the way up. (Insulated liner in larger chimney) They were built for efficient heating compared to being able to burn with open doors with a screen in place called "Fireplace Mode". Double door stoves use 8 inch outlet to prevent smoke roll in when open, requiring much more heat left up to keep the larger flue hot.
You didn't mention which double door model Fisher you have upstairs. There are a few 6 inch Fishers with double doors.
Of course you're not comparing apples to apples since the Fisher is a radiant stove only, and the Baker model uses convection (heating of air with blower). When the power is down it would be a fair comparison. Otherwise it should be compared to a Fisher Insert with blower.
I assume the Fisher is a 4 legged freestanding stove with 8 inch outlet being a Grandma or Grandpa? (Insert would also be a 8 inch outlet appliance) Are the stoves you're comparing both top or rear vent? Any rear vented stove is going to be more efficient, but they are made in different configurations for installation reasons.
If the upstairs double door Fisher is a newer model (III) with arched top doors, or glass doors, it may also have a baffle plate making it comparable. If not, there is a baffle thread in the Fisher Forum giving details for a simple fix.
If the basement is not insulated it will require about 1/3 more heat to heat that area than upstairs. That relates to a lot of wood. So efficiency as far as wood usage is going to be much less upstairs.
It's never good to burn any stove cool. The object is keeping the flue temperature above 250* all the way to the top. Water vapor from combustion will condense below that temperature allowing smoke particles to stick forming creosote. Hence the reason for a proper sized flue preferably insulated to keep hotter inside with less loss. A magnetic thermometer should be placed on the pipe close to where it enters chimney and judge what the loss will be to the top. Checking creosote formation will confirm if you're running hot enough. A cooler flue will create rapid creosote formation. Once you know what temp to run mid burn, you can check the stove top temp against the flue temp to know which is more efficient. A baffled Fisher normally runs about half the flue temp of the top temp on the step. This is fine with a proper sized chimney, but you may need more if a flue is an outside chimney compared to inside. Notice the efficiency is more about the chimney than the stove.
There should also be a damper in the first section of connector pipe on the Fisher upstairs. That is specified in manual. I'm not familiar with the manual for the Baker.
Moving the Fisher downstairs depends on the model of Fisher.
Single door stoves use a 6 inch flue outlet and should be connected to a 6 inch chimney flue all the way up. (Insulated liner in larger chimney) They were built for efficient heating compared to being able to burn with open doors with a screen in place called "Fireplace Mode". Double door stoves use 8 inch outlet to prevent smoke roll in when open, requiring much more heat left up to keep the larger flue hot.
You didn't mention which double door model Fisher you have upstairs. There are a few 6 inch Fishers with double doors.
Of course you're not comparing apples to apples since the Fisher is a radiant stove only, and the Baker model uses convection (heating of air with blower). When the power is down it would be a fair comparison. Otherwise it should be compared to a Fisher Insert with blower.
I assume the Fisher is a 4 legged freestanding stove with 8 inch outlet being a Grandma or Grandpa? (Insert would also be a 8 inch outlet appliance) Are the stoves you're comparing both top or rear vent? Any rear vented stove is going to be more efficient, but they are made in different configurations for installation reasons.
If the upstairs double door Fisher is a newer model (III) with arched top doors, or glass doors, it may also have a baffle plate making it comparable. If not, there is a baffle thread in the Fisher Forum giving details for a simple fix.
If the basement is not insulated it will require about 1/3 more heat to heat that area than upstairs. That relates to a lot of wood. So efficiency as far as wood usage is going to be much less upstairs.
It's never good to burn any stove cool. The object is keeping the flue temperature above 250* all the way to the top. Water vapor from combustion will condense below that temperature allowing smoke particles to stick forming creosote. Hence the reason for a proper sized flue preferably insulated to keep hotter inside with less loss. A magnetic thermometer should be placed on the pipe close to where it enters chimney and judge what the loss will be to the top. Checking creosote formation will confirm if you're running hot enough. A cooler flue will create rapid creosote formation. Once you know what temp to run mid burn, you can check the stove top temp against the flue temp to know which is more efficient. A baffled Fisher normally runs about half the flue temp of the top temp on the step. This is fine with a proper sized chimney, but you may need more if a flue is an outside chimney compared to inside. Notice the efficiency is more about the chimney than the stove.
There should also be a damper in the first section of connector pipe on the Fisher upstairs. That is specified in manual. I'm not familiar with the manual for the Baker.
Moving the Fisher downstairs depends on the model of Fisher.
Goon info. the baker is a rear vented, and the fisher is a top vented. (8") Not sure which fisher but it does have arched doors.
It does not have a damper in it though.
I actually have my baker reduced to a 6" vent pipe. I guess I never really knew better. It doesn't smoke hardly at all.
The basement is not insulated, but it's not apples for apples with the upstairs because it's all below grade, so it's not exposed to as much fluctuating temperature and wind. I am going to let it go out tomorrow and just burn the upstairs fisher for a few days. I burned a little more than cord and a half of oak in 4 weeks of moderate weather with just the downstairs stove, however during the evening extended burns the heat pump has to assist to keep the kids rooms warm.
It does not have a damper in it though.
I actually have my baker reduced to a 6" vent pipe. I guess I never really knew better. It doesn't smoke hardly at all.
The basement is not insulated, but it's not apples for apples with the upstairs because it's all below grade, so it's not exposed to as much fluctuating temperature and wind. I am going to let it go out tomorrow and just burn the upstairs fisher for a few days. I burned a little more than cord and a half of oak in 4 weeks of moderate weather with just the downstairs stove, however during the evening extended burns the heat pump has to assist to keep the kids rooms warm.
Do these stoves not require a door gasket? I didn't notice anywhere in the manual where it said anything about installing one, also neither one of the fishers in the house I bought had one installed.
5 bricks across the back will be Grandma, 6 bricks wide is a Grandpa. With a top vented 8 inch pipe and chimney you need at least a damper in the pipe, or better yet a smoke shelf baffle in the stove. The top vent allows much closer installation to a wall than the rear vent (single wall pipe clearance 18 inch). Rear vent is more suited for installation in front of a hearth to be vented into the existing fireplace flue with a block off plate. (or through the wall chimney) To prove the heat output difference, the clearance to combustible for the top vent (model III) is 36" compared to requiring 42" for the rear vented same model stove.
You're comparing chimneys and venting, not comparing stoves. If this were cars, you would have one with a restrictor plate and one running wide open. The Fisher is going to get much hotter and burn much more wood. The flue is going to stay much cleaner because you're not applying the heat inside the house, it's up the chimney. Baffle and damper controls the draft equalizing your venting and chimney set up. (IF both flues are the same size and height)
Most people don't understand this simple fact; The chimney is the engine that runs the stove. Just like with cars, you're comparing the rest of the vehicle to each other by comparing stoves. For power and efficiency compare engines. Efficiency of the stove relates to the chimney.
Below grade with no insulation (foam panels under floor and outside walls) = masonry wall in contact with earth. This acts like a heat sink extracting more heat than the loss through insulated walls upstairs. The heat required is 30% more due to this loss.
You're comparing chimneys and venting, not comparing stoves. If this were cars, you would have one with a restrictor plate and one running wide open. The Fisher is going to get much hotter and burn much more wood. The flue is going to stay much cleaner because you're not applying the heat inside the house, it's up the chimney. Baffle and damper controls the draft equalizing your venting and chimney set up. (IF both flues are the same size and height)
Most people don't understand this simple fact; The chimney is the engine that runs the stove. Just like with cars, you're comparing the rest of the vehicle to each other by comparing stoves. For power and efficiency compare engines. Efficiency of the stove relates to the chimney.
Below grade with no insulation (foam panels under floor and outside walls) = masonry wall in contact with earth. This acts like a heat sink extracting more heat than the loss through insulated walls upstairs. The heat required is 30% more due to this loss.
One of the benefits of a Fisher is not requiring replacement of door gasket material. The door seal is the iron 1 inch channel iron that makes a 3 point contact on door. This is considered air tight as built. NOW you're comparing stoves.
I should add as long as you have SOLID Cast Iron doors no gasket is used. The glass door models DO use gasket material. The III model on the stove front (in channel iron groove) and the IV model on the doors.
![[Hearth.com] Fisher and Baker discussion](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/149/149209-93acd0f0fe9ee2b58ed74faec0cc6576.jpg?hash=NPzs42syYD "[Hearth.com] Fisher and Baker discussion")
Grandma Model III
![[Hearth.com] Fisher and Baker discussion](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/149/149210-e545537f281c7339b1a4306d3e36c0cc.jpg?hash=D-ebkP_OZQ "[Hearth.com] Fisher and Baker discussion")
Grandma Model IV
Grandma Model III Grandma Model IVGood info. I can install an 8" damper in my vent, how do I go about getting the right adjustment? Been burning wood my whole life (not too long, I'm in my mid 20s) and never had a vent damper.
You don't always need a damper in the pipe on all installations. So your other chimneys may not have been too strong and needed a way to slow them down.
The Fisher double door stove is made to burn with doors open with screen in place. This is "Fireplace Mode" and the only control you then have is the pipe damper. During open door burning, you close it until smoke starts to roll in at top, open slightly. This prevents all the heat from going up and slightly slows the fire. They are not considered a radiant heater in Fireplace Mode.
No one can tell you where to set the damper. That changes with chimney size, interior or exterior chimney, with or without insulated liner, height, outside temperature, elevation, and the need for heat. The easier it is to keep the flue hot inside, the less you need to leave up. So a very inefficient chimney may need all the heat it can get if oversized for the stove, so it would be left wide open. In extreme cases the stove can't even heat the building trying to keep the flue hot enough. So it's a good thing when you have too much draft that needs to be regulated. As I said above, 250* is the temp you need to stay above all the way up. Checking creosote formation frequently will show if you run too cool.
You'll find when you light kindling it may burn so fast it will roar up the flue. When you hear that, close the damper partially until the sound stops. This will slow the air coming in and keep the heat in the stove longer to ignite the larger pieces as you add them. You don't want all that heat roaring up the stack. You could control it with the air intakes, but that slows the fire by depriving it of oxygen. You don't want to do that until up to temperature and setting for heat output. Slowing the draft with the damper with air intakes open allows it to get as much oxygen as it needs starting faster with less smoke.
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So really the damper is almost really optional if I'm not using the stove in fireplace mode right? I have no problem heating the house, with either stove. I think I may be sending a ton of heat up the chimney though.
I only know yours has cathedral doors, making it a model III (1979 or later). Later stoves will also have a baffle. Since the UL approved installation manual for that stove requires it, legally it's not optional. It is required.
The single door stove manual does not require damper, but it's always good to have one in case of a chimney fire, or if a piece of wood gets stuck and you can't shut the door tightly...... then you have a way to slow it down by reducing draft.
Once the fire is down to the coal stage there is no smoke to form creosote and the damper can be closed to extend burn times. Yes, you're wasting a lot of heat up the chimney. Put a magnetic thermometer on the pipe where it enters the chimney and you have an idea when your wasting heat. The more temp differential from inside the flue to out, the stronger the draft and the more it can be closed. (the colder outside, the stronger the draft and the more closed) Low pressure area from storms requires it to be more open. The thread at bottom explains how the chimney makes the oxygen rush into the stove. Older dampers will have a larger hole in the center when closed as an idle or overnight burn mainly for older coal stoves. So that's another factor that determines how far you run them open or closed. To be precise, you would use an IR thermometer to check stove top, pipe and chimney internal temp at the top. Then you have an idea with the stick on thermometers what flue temps your running. Before the days of infrared surface thermometers frequent checking of creosote gave you an idea when you ran too cool.
Below are dampers with various openings when closed. The high tech of today must have made them obsolete. But they sure did work...........
![[Hearth.com] Fisher and Baker discussion](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/149/149281-79203ff8ecc0233b5fea9a4f7c9151ea.jpg?hash=aeQROQwTQn "[Hearth.com] Fisher and Baker discussion")
This thread will explain how the low pressure created in chimney by hot rising gasses (and regulating it with damper) allows atmospheric air pressure to push into the stove; That is the basis of what makes the stove work.
Post #4
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/new-fisher-owner.137880/
The single door stove manual does not require damper, but it's always good to have one in case of a chimney fire, or if a piece of wood gets stuck and you can't shut the door tightly...... then you have a way to slow it down by reducing draft.
Once the fire is down to the coal stage there is no smoke to form creosote and the damper can be closed to extend burn times. Yes, you're wasting a lot of heat up the chimney. Put a magnetic thermometer on the pipe where it enters the chimney and you have an idea when your wasting heat. The more temp differential from inside the flue to out, the stronger the draft and the more it can be closed. (the colder outside, the stronger the draft and the more closed) Low pressure area from storms requires it to be more open. The thread at bottom explains how the chimney makes the oxygen rush into the stove. Older dampers will have a larger hole in the center when closed as an idle or overnight burn mainly for older coal stoves. So that's another factor that determines how far you run them open or closed. To be precise, you would use an IR thermometer to check stove top, pipe and chimney internal temp at the top. Then you have an idea with the stick on thermometers what flue temps your running. Before the days of infrared surface thermometers frequent checking of creosote gave you an idea when you ran too cool.
Below are dampers with various openings when closed. The high tech of today must have made them obsolete. But they sure did work...........
This thread will explain how the low pressure created in chimney by hot rising gasses (and regulating it with damper) allows atmospheric air pressure to push into the stove; That is the basis of what makes the stove work.
Post #4
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/new-fisher-owner.137880/
I just looked at my double door fisher a little closer. it has arched doors, no baffle, and the legs are angle iron that is extended down and part of the firebox. Can someone direct me to a thread about installing a baffle?
This is the baffle thread I started to be able to fabricate a baffle like they were designed in the later double doors. Post #4 shows the "Smoke Shelf Baffle" in a Goldilocks. That is a double door stove similar to Grandma with pedestal instead of legs. You can't go by any measurements other than measuring your own. I don't know what model you have, GM III or GP III, but you can use the search feature at the top right with keywords like Grandma Baffle or Grandpa Baffle when you know what model you have. There are lots including one with video.
Smoke Shelf type baffle should be 5/16 thick in GM, GP and XL, not 1/4" plate.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...d-fisher-more-heat-less-smoke-under-25.74710/
You're going to need to know what square inch opening your flue is to make the plate the correct size for the smoke space to match pipe or flue. Make a template with cardboard first as described in the baffle thread. When you get the correct angle with it on bricks on the sides, aim it towards the lower bend. That gives you the rough size for the plate. It can be adjusted up and down at the front for the exact smoke space square inches. Damper operation will be different with the baffle, running farther open. A smaller smoke space than the square inch stove outlet or flue can cause smoke roll in problems opening doors. Larger is fine which looses efficiency but is far better than none at all.
Smoke Shelf type baffle should be 5/16 thick in GM, GP and XL, not 1/4" plate.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...d-fisher-more-heat-less-smoke-under-25.74710/
You're going to need to know what square inch opening your flue is to make the plate the correct size for the smoke space to match pipe or flue. Make a template with cardboard first as described in the baffle thread. When you get the correct angle with it on bricks on the sides, aim it towards the lower bend. That gives you the rough size for the plate. It can be adjusted up and down at the front for the exact smoke space square inches. Damper operation will be different with the baffle, running farther open. A smaller smoke space than the square inch stove outlet or flue can cause smoke roll in problems opening doors. Larger is fine which looses efficiency but is far better than none at all.
Just an update, we changed over to the fisher upstairs and I have to say we are using half the amount of wood, it's much colder out (single digits vs the high 20s) and the house is 3 times as warm and we are using half the wood. I wish I would have done it a month ago. And all of this is without the baffle install. Also overnight burns, our heat kicked on every night and barely and coals after 8 hours. With the fisher the heat never kicked on and I don't have to do the stove before work. My wife can do it when she gets up.
I assume you installed a damper?
You will notice an immediate reduction in smoke with a baffle. Burning more smoke in the stove increases BTU and the baffle directs it to the stove top instead of the exiting pipe.
We built an 1880 square foot ranch with full basement as well. No contractors, my wife and I built it. Open floor plan, only two chimneys, one up ,one down, no other heat source. We heated the entire exposed living level with a Mama Bear with 6 inch chimney in the center of house. Could have used a Papa only for the coldest nights. R-22 walls, R-44 ceiling. NEPA. Never tried to heat the basement yet, but I know the cement walls and ground will require lots more heat for the same square footage. Nice to have heat down there, but we don't heat it all the time. I have a neighbor who is a mason contractor by trade that built his home just like I did, only a few feet shorter. I found him a Papa Bear for downstairs and he goes through more than twice the wood we do. But the Papa heats both levels. He has a gas furnace that hasn't ran in years. He doesn't want to bring the mess upstairs...........
You will notice an immediate reduction in smoke with a baffle. Burning more smoke in the stove increases BTU and the baffle directs it to the stove top instead of the exiting pipe.
We built an 1880 square foot ranch with full basement as well. No contractors, my wife and I built it. Open floor plan, only two chimneys, one up ,one down, no other heat source. We heated the entire exposed living level with a Mama Bear with 6 inch chimney in the center of house. Could have used a Papa only for the coldest nights. R-22 walls, R-44 ceiling. NEPA. Never tried to heat the basement yet, but I know the cement walls and ground will require lots more heat for the same square footage. Nice to have heat down there, but we don't heat it all the time. I have a neighbor who is a mason contractor by trade that built his home just like I did, only a few feet shorter. I found him a Papa Bear for downstairs and he goes through more than twice the wood we do. But the Papa heats both levels. He has a gas furnace that hasn't ran in years. He doesn't want to bring the mess upstairs...........
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