Fishing Wires/Cables through Walls

[daveswoodhauler]

Just wondering if this is something I can tackle myself, and if I should run down and buy the fishing tape.
I have a house built in the late 1990's.
Need to run cable and phone wires up into a spare room, as the cheap bastards that had the house built only had one phone jack and one cable jack put in upstairs and downstairs.
I'll be running this from the basement up through an outside wall (Back of kitchen)...going to put one jack in the first floor for the Mrs's wall mount tv in the kitchen, and second cable will be run into my office upstairs.
I'm going to go down to the basement and see if I can run it with perhaps some existing electrical wires, but I am wondering on tips/tricks....or if I should even tackle myself.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[hkillam]

It isn't a good idea to run data cabling alongside electrical. In fact, completely separated is the best option. If they need to cross at a 90 degree angle, that isn't usually problematic.

If you're going to the trouble to pull it, then pull more then you currently need, if you can afford the extra wire. If you have a phone only location, pull coax cable with it, and vice versa. Gives you the most options in the future, and is a good add'l selling point if you put your home on the market. When I did my wiring, each room got coax cable, phone, and two runs of CAT5 for network. If phone ever fails, you can use CAT5 for that as well. It was easier in my case, no drywall or insulation yet.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Ok, thanks for the advice.
Had a 2nd thought. Would there be any data loss the longer run of cable?
Here is my situation. I have cable/phone/internet all come through the coax.
Instead of fishing through the outside walls...it might be easier if I come up through the basement to an interior closet on first floor...then go into 2nd floor and into attic...then drop lines down from attic into rooms I need it in.

 

[Highbeam]

It is way way easier to fish wires through interior walls. That exterior wall will be packed full of insulation. I ran RG6u coax and Cat5e phone to several locations in my home and used an attic mounted "Structured Media Center" from the HD as a huge junction box.

I refuse to run cable and phone to the kid's bedrooms so if that hurts resale then so be it. Also I hate seeing the wires nailed to the outside of the home and moving them inside the attic/walls was an aesthetic improvement.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Thanks highbeam....still trying to figure the best way to run up to the attic....thats my problem. Going to try to find a long run along the plumbing...ist floor is basically wide open. Easier to jam the fish tape down and pull up the cable...or vice versa?

 

[d.n.f.]

Don't drill through the central vac.

Note to self, need to fix that after fishing cable wire through floor on Sunday.

 

[fossil]

Our home was short on phone jacks, too. I bought a Panasonic cordless setup. The "base station" has a cordless phone & answering machine, and it needs a phone jack. Two additional "satellite" cordless phones need only power for transformers. The system works like a charm, has excellent sound quality (clarity), and it can function as an intercom. Pretty cool deal, actually. We can have a cordless phone in a charger stand anywhere we have power available. Of course, this doesn't address the COAX you want to run. Oh yeah...don't drill through your ABS washing machine drain pipe, either. :red: Rick

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Thanks for the replies.
Here is my dilemma....I have 2 phone lines....one for home and one for work. Ist phone line goes from the back of the modem to any wall jack, and activates the phones in the house. Second phone line (work) must be plugged into the back of the modem, and also need the coax in the office for the computer.
Gonna go fishing thie weekend....will let you all know if I catch antyhing.

 

[Gooserider]

I pulled around 6,000 FEET of wiring into my walls for low voltage - overkill, but I should NEVER need to pull another wire again... There are now jacks for telephone, internet and cable in almost EVERY room of the house, including the bathrooms (ever notice how phone calls tend to coincide w/ nature's calls? I can reach the phone w/o needing to get up!)

1. Avoid outside walls like the plague! At best they are a PITA to get wire through because of the insulation, not to mention that you will probably mess up your insulation... Out of around 20 jack locations, I think I have 4 that are in outside walls.

2. Wire is cheap! Terminations aren't very expensive! Pulling wire is a PAIN, but it is no harder to pull a bunch of wires than it is to pull one - so for most locations I pulled four strands of CAT5E, and two of RG6Quad, in small rooms (bathroom, laundry room, kitchen) I pulled one of each. Probably most runs won't get used, but they are there if I need them

3. There is NO reason to pull separate wire types for phone and ethernet - or use different jacks. I purchased four 1100' rolls of CAT5 in different colors, and arbitrarily decided to use mostly yellow and green for ethernet and blue and white for phone (I swapped around a couple of times to keep the wire consumption even) - this gives me up to 4 lines of telephone per run, though I'd need to custom make my cords to use that many. A standard RJ-11 phone jack will plug into an RJ45 outlet just fine, and it was easier to only have to buy one kind of outlet

4. I don't like those structured wiring centers - very expensive, and very limited capacity... Instead I put a sheet of plywood on the wall in our basement and put a 48-port ethernet patch panel, a 300 pair telephone punchdown block, and a couple of 24-port strips that could take "keystone" type jacks for my cable ends.

5. "Home Run" everything - it is a requirement for ethernet, and it will work better for telephone and cable.

6. Even though you should never need to run another wire, it doesn't hurt to leave "pull strings" for every run you do - I used nylon "mason string" - low cost and strong.

7. I found that cutting a length of coat hanger wire and chucking it in my drill made an excellent "probe drill" - it will slowly go through sheet rock and light wood, but isn't so sharp that you can't feel it hit more expensive items. It also makes a tiny hole if you find that you aren't coming out where you thought you were.

I think if you look way back, you will find some threads here where I discussed my project in more detail. I also had a lengthy thread on it over on DUX Computer Digest

(Craig has seen my setup, he thought I was an ISP.... :lol: )

 

[John_M]

Gooserider, please explain what "home run" each wire means compared to "looping" each wire from one outlet to another.

Grins, John_M

 

[Gooserider]

Gooserider, please explain what "home run" each wire means compared to "looping" each wire from one outlet to another.

Grins, John_M

There are two styles of running wires (and some other things like plumbing) - "daisy-chain" and "home-run".

In a daisy-chain, or series setup, you go from one point to the next in a single string. This gives lots of places for noise to be introduced into the system, and a failure anywhere in the line will take out every outlet downstream.

In a "home-run" setup, you have a central connection point, with a single line going from each outlet to that central point. Each outlet is connected on it's own wire, so damage to a line takes out only the outlet it services.

Cable TV wiring allows daisy chains, but frowns on them, as each point on the chain will get a different signal strength, and the furthest point may well have problems. With a home run setup every jack gets the same signal strength (Differences in wire length are not a significant factor in house-lengths)

Telephone wiring used to allow daisy chains, but they are deprecated these days, modern telephony standards call for a home run setup.

Twisted Pair type Ethernet expressly prohibits daisy chains, each computer must have it's own connection to the router / hub. (Coax Ethernet does allow daisy chains, but is VERY obsolete, and a nightmare to work on, you DON'T want to go there!)

Since Ethernet requires a home run setup, if you are pulling multiple cable types, it's probably not only better from a technical standpoing, but easier to do the same thing with the other wires.

Gooserider

 

[Highbeam]

You push the fish tape and then use the fish tape to pull the wire to you. Within a single cat5e wire is several pairs of wires that each can be a seperate phone line. So unless you need like 5 phone lines then only pull one cat5e.

Rather than fish tape I just drilled a hole in the top plate, opened up a junction box sized hole where I wanted the termination box and then dropped a nut attached to mason string down from the top plate in the attic. From the j-box hole I then grabbed the sting and attached my coax/cat5e combo to the string and reeled it back into the attic. This allowed me to unwind and lay out the cable in the living space so that no kinks or knots would occur as it was being pulled into the attic and otwards the SMC. I have found that some SMCs are very expensive but the one at HD was not. There's no magic though and all it is is a big electrical box with a cable splitter and a phone punch down block so you could make one if you want.

Each of the phone and cable outlet locations run all the way back to the SMC without any breaks, other outlets, or any other jive and in the most direct path possible. This allows each wall outlet to be turned on or off and troubleshot. I believe that this is called a home-run system. Mine was a retrofit installation in a single story home and I did the work when there was only about 5 inches of bat insulation. I needed to get it finished since I was about to blow in an R-38 lift of new insulation.

From the SMC I have a single inlet of coax from the street where I get the feed for my bundled phone/internet/TV.

 

[Gooserider]

There are lots of different techniques to get your pull path set up, doing the nut on a string works (It can also be helpful to have one of those magnetic pickup tools to stick in the hole on the other end) Fish tapes are useful, sticks or pipes can be helpful, I think I also used a fiberglass tent pole a few times. I also had a couple of cases where I used a 6' long flexible wall drill to get through obstacles. A lot of it is a question of pre-planning, figure out the best way to get from point A to point B. Be willing to move a location a little if that will help - moving over one stud space can often make a significant difference. I always put in a pull string twice the length of the run plus a foot or two, tied at each end, which I would LEAVE in place in case I ever have to go back and re-pull something. (to use, pull all the slack to the starting end, tape the bundle to the center, pull from the other end.)

I often found that it was helpful to break my runs up into segments. I pulled everything from the central "home node" as this kept me from having to move my cable dispensing setup very much. I would pull the amount I thought I'd need for the entire run from the home node to an intermediate point (typically a bend) then pull to the next point, and so on. I ended up with a branching setup where I'd follow the same route most of the way to all the jacks in a given area of the house, branching just when I got close.

It really helps to have two or three people when pulling - my normal procedure was to set up one or two runs during a day, then when the GF got home have her feed the wires into the run while I pulled, or vice versa. The next day I'd terminate that set of runs, and set up for the next set.

Another minor point is that cables have "Pull Load" ratings - pulling to hard on them can cause them to get distorted and no longer meet their performance ratings. Most CAT5e is only rated for 25lbs pulling force, very easy to exceed. RG6-Q is rated for about 90lbs which is much higher, if you are needing to pull that hard, something is wrong with your setup - Therefore it is best to fasten your pull string to the RG6, and the CAT5e to the RG6 a bit further back - this makes the coax carry the load while pulling and doesn't put as much strain on the CAT5

It was mentioned earlier, but it is best to avoid running near low voltage wiring near AC lines. Crossing at (or close to) right angles is not a problem, but avoid running directly alongside - it is reccomended that you separate them by at least one foot, or go through adjacent stud spaces. You can run as many low voltage lines together in a bundle as you need to, no problem.

Also note that while a CAT5 cable has 4 pairs in it, and normal ethernet only uses two, it is NOT a good idea to try to put multiple ethernet signals through a single CAT5, or to combine an ethernet signal with a telephone line. It can be done, but you run serious risk of signal degradation. It is entirely acceptable to run multiple telephone lines on a single CAT5 however. Thus, the minimum "full service" outlet will have 3 cables going to it - One CAT5 for ethernet, one CAT5 for phone (up to four lines, may also use lower CAT numbers, but this really won't save any money, and is an extra wire type to track) and one RG6-Quad for TV. If you are a heavy duty user, it may make sense to have extras on each... This would let you send a signal from your video equipment to a TV in a different room, plug in extra computers, etc. One can also find other uses for the extra lines in an unused spare CAT5 (distributed audio, alarm systems, home automation, thermostats, etc...)

I would also reccomend running at least one line each of CAT5e and RG6Q from your home node to your outside Network Interface Connection point (where the Telco / Cable co wires come into your house) This is so that you can offer both sorts of wiring and let the service provider pick which they want to use to get from the NIC to your home node - the telco wants CAT5, the cable co will want RG6-Q... Even if you have just one provider for now, run both so you aren't locked in...

In terms of what to run... There are several levels of CAT wire, for ethernet, anything CAT5 and above will work, mostly what you will find these days is CAT5e or enhanced, which is a slight upgrade, officially rated for 350MHz - this will run up to 100BaseT ethernet officially, and can handle Gigabit ethernet for short runs if properly installed. They also make CAT6 and even a CAT7, which are higher spec cables with greater capabilities, but for the traffic levels and distances involved in a home network, I don't feel the extra cost for CAT6 or better is worth it. Bear in mind that even 10BaseT ethernet is faster than most home broadband connections, so your bottleneck will be at the ISP, no matter how fast your home network is.

Fiber is amazingly fast, and gives huge bandwidths, but it is expensive and difficult to terminate, and requires VERY expensive equipment to verify proper installation. It also needs much higher cost equipment to connect on each end, I don't see enough benefit from it to justify running it at this time. (but this is one reason I left the pull strings there, in case things change)

Gooserider

 

[SlyFerret]

When you pull your cables for each run, pull a string along with them and leave it in place. That way, if you ever need to pull another cable through, you already have the string there to make the job easy. Just remember to pull a replacement string to leave behind again.

-SF

 

[johnn]

I`ve had difficulty at times wth steel tapes, as memory caused them to curl off inside wall catching on anything possible. The masons line with weight on it will hang plumb. Used that method to go from attic to basement on two story past plumbing vent. Usually cut opening in wall first, then plumbed up to ceiling and drilled a small hole into attic and pushed a coat hanger through to locate in attic.( patched hole later) String usually hung down in front of hole. As Highbeam mentioned uncoiling everything onto floor helps,,,but having someone to feed it as you pull is easier and requires less pulling force. Those cheap 2-way radios are really handy. Every once in a while, you will hit a nail in the header board so having an extra bit handy will cut down on frustration,,,running out of battery is a bummer too,,think about electric drill.

Rg-6 carries more db with less drop than RG-59. If all else fails a booster can be purchased. If on cable,,,the Company could replace 59 with 6 supply line from pole. (would help some)

 

[SlyFerret]

Definitely run RG-6 coax. It's usually what is spec'd for digital/HD cable and cable broadband.

-SF

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Thanks for all the replies...much appreciated.
From all the responses, I guess I am looking at purchasing a long drill bit that can bend to drill through the top plate on the interior walls. Any suggestions of what I should be looking for? (I'm guessing that they have these at HD/Lowes)
Also, I'm guessing where I cut out the area in the sheetrock, it should be next to a stud so I can attach the box for the cable/phone box?
Much Thanks.

 

[d.n.f.]

Yeah the box needs to be beside a stud. Buy a studfinder when you are there if you don't have one (they are pretty cheap and you will use it more than you think, plus it impresses the wife).
Not sure about the bendy drill bit. That would be cool.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Thanks, have a stud finder so I am ok there.
Basically looking for some help getting the wires down through the top plate between the first floor and basement.
The house is not under construction and fully finished, so it might be a pain in the arse.

 

[johnn]

Procedure I used from attic to basement on two story: Mason line with mall plumb bob. Located plumbing vent in attic, pulled back insulation and used space available from rough opening in framing that pipe penetrated. My old plaster construction had a fair size gap and your newer construction may be roughed in with a tighter fit that will need opened up some. If the first floor ceiling rough in was a tight fit and my plumb bob would not go past it into the basement, I would have to open up the wall at the first floor baseboard. luck had it so that I could feel the plumb bob hitting and slack would come in the line,,,I just kept working around the opening up in the attic and the bob found a space to fall through and went on down to the basement where once again it fell through. (lucky i guess)
The steel fish tapes have memory and want to curl, perhaps the plastic type will do a better job, with less tendency to curl up.
I never really found a metal box that you could install post construction and fasten to a stud without cutting a larger than desired hole.You will have to fasten it through the box to the stud and may require predrilling holes. There are plastic boxes which have tangs which swing around and lock on the sheetrock, holding them in place. im not real happy with them, but you can install them with a tight fit and they dont require a ground wire to the box when doing electrical wiring.I would not recommend using a spade bit for too many rpm`s will heat them and dull them. Get an auger bit with a self feed screw on the tip and it will pull itself through the wood(however you will need a tool with torque) Look for nail heads before drilling. Cut your hole in wall,,,look up to ceiling and drill small hole in ceiling close to wall,,,stick coat hanger up into attic and it will locate where to drill your hole once in the attic. If by chance you dont have head room to work in the attic on a particular wall you can use those long drill bits to drill through the header from the room. you will have to open a hole in your wall say a foot or two down from the ceiling, and use the long bit to drill through the header. Where you open the wall will depend on how long a bit you buy. They are pricy, and then you got a hole to patch and paint. These are just details that worked for me, for there are electricians on the forum who know the real tricks,,look up other threads in the DIY

 

[Highbeam]

Well the interior wall top plates are typically only a single 2x4 and I just use a 1/2" drill bit in my cordless drill. No funny bendy bits. Your challenge will for sure be getting through the floor into the basement. Sheetrock is easy to fix so I wouldn't be too afraid of opening an access hole in a closet or somewhere to make the drop into the basement.

There is no reason to be by a stud. Use an "old work" box that is made to mount to the sheetrock vs. nailing in to the stud. How did you plan on pounding the nails from the box into the stud? You could possibly run a long screw through inside of the box into the stud but the old work boxes work very well so I use them.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Thanks ML and Highbeam!
I have some more research to do about where to put the drops......ist floor is pretty much wide open with only one closet...wide open room above the closet too.
Any problems with running the cable along my piping for the forced hot water? (Piping get too hot for the cable???I think I have acess, and it puts me where I want to be for the drop)
Again, thanks for your time!

 

[d.n.f.]

Well the interior wall top plates are typically only a single 2x4 and I just use a 1/2" drill bit in my cordless drill. No funny bendy bits. Your challenge will for sure be getting through the floor into the basement. Sheetrock is easy to fix so I wouldn't be too afraid of opening an access hole in a closet or somewhere to make the drop into the basement.

There is no reason to be by a stud. Use an "old work" box that is made to mount to the sheetrock vs. nailing in to the stud. How did you plan on pounding the nails from the box into the stud? You could possibly run a long screw through inside of the box into the stud but the old work boxes work very well so I use them.

I just did that. I pressed the box in (box with spiky bits) into the stud. Then screwed it into the stud. Didn't have to cut any huge drywall opening. Cover plate covers it all up. Just don't buy a box with ears.

 

[Gooserider]

You can get the long wall bits at Home Depot, look in the electrical dept, same area as the other electrician tools. I would agree on the auger bit, IMHO 3/4" is the optimal size, as that will (just) pass a bundle w/ 2 RG6Q's and 4 CAT5e's - better yet they make an extension that you can chuck different bits into for a bit more flexibility. Note that the wall bits also have a hole in the tip that can be used as a way to attach lines for fishing.

However as others have suggested, often there are ways to avoid having to purchase the rather spendy wall bit. - I would suggest that if you need to probe, rather than using a regular drill and sticking a coat hanger through, cut the coat hanger and use THAT for a drill - it will cut / burn its way through sheetrock and wood, but resist plumbing and other things you don't want to drill, plus it makes a tiny hole and can be cut to much longer lengths than standard 'jobber length' drills...

I would suggest looking for the specifically designed low voltage electrical boxes (usually orange plastic) this is slightly more code compliant, and they are easier to wire since they are open in the back (do NOT use a closed back box, as they will force too tight of a bend radius on the wires going into the box, especially the coax. If you can't find the orange plastic boxes, it is OK to use the blue plastic boxes, just cut the backs off them with a saw.

Gooserider

 

[d.n.f.]

Sorry for the hijack, but why low voltage box only? I used a metal box and it has openings top and bottom with tons of room for wire/coax to go through.

I understand the kinking issue but is there a problem I need to know about for using a metal box? I am about to close it up and now would be the time.