Flue Pipe

[retiredff]

Hello, I haven't been here in a while.

I had someone new clean my flue and he told me my install was not to code. I have a regency 2400 that has the flue pipe going thru the wall into an old chimney that was relined/insulated. That is not the issue. Where the double wall goes thru the wall (plaster/lath) is the issue. My receipt says there was a 8" THIMBLE used to pass thru to the chimney because of the lath, in reality what was used was a 8" black pipe with a 6" pipe inside and insulation stuffed in-between the 2 pipes. The guy that installed the stove I don't use anymore for reasons left unsaid. But After being informed the install was not code, I called him to verify the install was code and I wanted a letter on his letterhead verifying this. He is on vacation now until after labor day and I'll try again so we can straighten this out.

Also the original install was with double wall pipe to and thru the wall. I found that single wall will work that has a SHIELD on the riser pipe and I won't have to move the stove to comply with clearances to the wall or ceiling. My main complaint about this stove is it seems most of the heat is going up the flue and not in my home. If the single wall pipe will put more heat into my home I will do that, but I don't know if the extra heat is worth the expense unless I can work out a deal with the installer of this stove.

My home is a old 2 story farm house that as new double pane windows, fully insulated including the band joists in the basement. Because of windy conditions in my area I had a rooster tail cap installed years ago that has helped the draw on windy days where the wind is from the south. Winds that come from any other direction don't effect the heat output at all.

Any info appreciated

Tony

 

[begreen]

Good for the new sweep to catch this. There should be class A pipe going through a proper class A thimble. Stove pipe is not allowed to pass thru a wall.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/chimney-passing-a-chimney-through-the-wall.147754/#post-1987049

Is there a probe thermometer in the stove pipe? That will indicate the flue gas temp. You want it to stay above the condensation point in the chimney to avoid creosote build up. How do you run the stove as far as the air control goes? Is the air until the flames start getting lazy once the fire is burning well? Is there strong secondary combustion at this stage?

 

[retiredff]

Good for the new sweep to catch this. There should be class A pipe going through a proper class A thimble. Stove pipe is not allowed to pass thru a wall.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/chimney-passing-a-chimney-through-the-wall.147754/#post-1987049

Is there a probe thermometer in the stove pipe? That will indicate the flue gas temp. You want it to stay above the condensation point in the chimney to avoid creosote build up. How do you run the stove as far as the air control goes? Is the air until the flames start getting lazy once the fire is burning well? Is there strong secondary combustion at this stage?

Thanks for the reply.
my install now look sorts of like a rigged insulated stove pipe. 8" with 6" inside and filled with insulation.
I do have a flue temp gauge and on days where the outside temp is around 32 I run the stove around 600-800 degrees flue temp, on really cold days (sub zero) I run it hotter but never over 1000. I have a Regency stove with secondary burn and it run it like you described. When I have the flue cleaned there if very little ash in the pipe of the fine soft soot type.

I have the installer coming out after labor day I will tell him I want a letter (on his company letter head) that this will pass inspection as being within code, so in the event a fire starts in the stove area I have something in writing to show my insurance company. My bill from him has listed 8" thimble, instead he rigged one I think to save money. If he refuses I don't know what my next move should be. Advise here would be great. This guy also installed a rooster tail flue cap because of wind issues. The first strong wind it blew OFF. He sent a kid out to put it back up and I told him to put a few screws in it so this won't happen again. His office sent me a bill for $79! I called and asked what was the bill for because the cap was not installed correctly. His answer was the flue was installed correctly so instead of arguing I paid the bill and found another sweep. I will bring this up when I comes he to check his work.

Tony

 

[begreen]

Flue temps or stove top temps at 600-800? If flue temp that is high.

Based on what has been described, I would have every inch of that installation gone over to see where else short cuts were taken.

 

[retiredff]

Flue temps or stove top temps at 600-800? If flue temp that is high.

Based on what has been described, I would have every inch of that installation gone over to see where else short cuts were taken.

I have a temp gauge that is about 18" above my stove that is inserted into the flue pipe. The gauge shows 'optimum operation' between 400-900 degrees.

I hope the guy that installed this will make good on his work or give me a letter saying his install meets code so I can hopefully cover my ass incase something happens. The sweep that brought this up said the rest of the install looked good.

 

[retiredff]

Can anyone answer my question about the single wall pipe vs double wall pipe? I found out I can use single wall pipe with a shield and not have to increase my clearances from combustibles. But if I don't see a decent amount of heat output it's not worth it to me.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Can anyone answer my question about the single wall pipe vs double wall pipe? I found out I can use single wall pipe with a shield and not have to increase my clearances from combustibles. But if I don't see a decent amount of heat output it's not worth it to me.

You have a Regency F2400? Do you have the blower kit? Your stove is rated at approximately 77% efficiency so you shouldn't have an inordinate amount of heat going up the chimney once the fire is established and the door is shut. The chimney needs a certain amount of heat to maintain a good draft when the stove is burning on low. Make sure your door seal is good, the firebricks are properly placed, the baffles and tubes are in good condition and there isn't ash buildup in the pipe or upper stove area. Problems here can really reduce efficiency.

If you don't have a blower, get one, that's the best way to reduce heat losses up the chimney when burning on med/high.

 

[kennyp2339]

You heat with your stove and not chimney, perhaps the stove is undersized for your place?
This may sound dumb, but I'll say it, some people think by running the stove wide open all the time will get them more heat, the air controller was made to add more air when starting a fire or reloading, once you have an established coal bed and good flame show you should be turning the air down in quarter increments until the flames get semi lazy, this allows the fire box to achieve full designed temps and secondary combustion takes over from there re-burning the unburnt smoke and providing a good amount of stove top heat while keeping the efficiency design rating in check.
It sounds to me that either you are not adjusting the air control or you have a wild draft problem literally sucking the heat out of your stove (I had that issue with mine, and was able to manage it by installing a damper in the black pipe)

 

[Hogwildz]

You're not running the stove with air wide open are you? You should be adjusting the air intake down as far as it can without smouldering. Too much air will send the heat up the stack, causing higher flue temps, and less heat in the home.

 

[retiredff]

You have a Regency F2400? Do you have the blower kit? Your stove is rated at approximately 77% efficiency so you shouldn't have an inordinate amount of heat going up the chimney once the fire is established and the door is shut. The chimney needs a certain amount of heat to maintain a good draft when the stove is burning on low. Make sure your door seal is good, the firebricks are properly placed, the baffles and tubes are in good condition and there isn't ash buildup in the pipe or upper stove area. Problems here can really reduce efficiency.

If you don't have a blower, get one, that's the best way to reduce heat losses up the chimney when burning on med/high.

I have the blower kit. I found out the first winter I needed it and yes I have the 2400. When I have the flue cleaned there is very little ash in the pipe so I must be burning good wood and the correct way. I have double wall going to the wall. If I install a single wall with heat shield will that give me more heat output?

 

[retiredff]

You're not running the stove with air wide open are you? You should be adjusting the air intake down as far as it can without smouldering. Too much air will send the heat up the stack, causing higher flue temps, and less heat in the home.

not wide open. However when it's sub-zero I may have to run it wide open. Is that the right way?

 

[retiredff]

You heat with your stove and not chimney, perhaps the stove is undersized for your place?
This may sound dumb, but I'll say it, some people think by running the stove wide open all the time will get them more heat, the air controller was made to add more air when starting a fire or reloading, once you have an established coal bed and good flame show you should be turning the air down in quarter increments until the flames get semi lazy, this allows the fire box to achieve full designed temps and secondary combustion takes over from there re-burning the unburnt smoke and providing a good amount of stove top heat while keeping the efficiency design rating in check.
It sounds to me that either you are not adjusting the air control or you have a wild draft problem literally sucking the heat out of your stove (I had that issue with mine, and was able to manage it by installing a damper in the black pipe)

I'll have that looked at, that may be my problem or I haven't figured out the air control yet.

 

[retiredff]

So basically you guys are telling me flue temp does not relate to heat output?

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I would think you get maximum heat output with the least amount of air going through the stove. Its actually the same with an oil burner, too much air blows your heat up the flue. If your stove is too small for the job, you wont get your most efficient burn on high all the time ,and may shorten the life of the stove.

 

[retiredff]

I would think you get maximum heat output with the least amount of air going through the stove. Its actually the same with an oil burner, too much air blows you heat up the flue. If your stove is too small for the job, you wont get your most efficient burn on high all the time ,and may shorten the life of the stove.

OK. I'll have to play with the air when I start to burn.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I'll have that looked at, that may be my problem or I haven't figured out the air control yet.

Yeah, that's pretty important considering it's the primary control you have over the operation of your stove.

Have you done the dollar bill test on the door seal?

 

[Ashful]

I hope the guy that installed this will make good on his work or give me a letter saying his install meets code so I can hopefully cover my ass incase something happens. The sweep that brought this up said the rest of the install looked good.

I have no advice on the specifics of code compliance, and will leave that to others. However, I do hire a LOT of people to work on my house (eg. I have a crew of three here today, which is just another Tuesday), and can give some advice on that: cut your losses. Get your letter from this guy, to cover liability, but do NOT expect him to make good on this job. Hire someone else for that. In the grand scheme of things, the cost is not worth the headache you may be creating for yourself, by having him back on the job.

 

[Hogwildz]

not wide open. However when it's sub-zero I may have to run it wide open. Is that the right way?

The only time the air should be wide open, is upon a cold start, or reload on coals. After the load is established in burning, the air should be turned as low as possible without choking the fire. In my case, that is the air set all the way low.
Think of it this way, the more air going in, the more air & heat going up and out, rather than in the home.
If the stove can't keep up, then it is too small for the situation. In other situations, running wide open may overfire the stove.

 

[Manly]

Can anyone answer my question about the single wall pipe vs double wall pipe? I found out I can use single wall pipe with a shield and not have to increase my clearances from combustibles. But if I don't see a decent amount of heat output it's not worth it to me.

Many years ago I installed my Jotul 3CB with double wall pipe. This stove replaced an All Nighter which had single wall stove pipe installed by the previous owner. Never had an issue with the single wall pipe but it didn't meet code from my best interpretation. So i decided to go with double on the new stove. First thing I noticed was how cool the new stove pipe remained. With the Jotul output being much less than the All Nighter I thought about going back to single wall. My stove pipe runs straight up through the high ceiling and it is a lot of surface area. I found pipe shields that were UL listed and rated for 6 inch clearance. Installed with heaven guage single wall pipe and have been very pleased with the result. Front of the pipe radiates good heat and the back stays cool enough to touch. Your mileage may vary. Jim

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Single wall pipe does radiate a lot of heat. That can be good or bad. Flue temps can drop a few hundred degrees from exit of stove to where pipe enters the chimney. Cool flue gas temps can cause excess creosote build up and a weaker draft. I get a substantial amount of creosote out of my single wall pipe. If your getting a lot of creosote out when the flue is cleaned stick with double wall to get those flue temps up.