freon recycling?

[pybyr]

OK, at first, that topic does not sound all that closely related to burning wood, but stay with me, it will

my econoburn and all the other new associated big expensive metal are going down in an 1830+/- farmhouse basement that has a concrete floor but unmortared stone walls

most summers, I run a dehumidifier from some time in July to some time in September, and even with it being a recent Energy Star model, it runs like it's going to bust a gut 24/7 and my electric bill doubles during those months- although it beats having everything metallic corrode away, and everything organic rot away

I do have a spring, fed to the cellar by pipe, that pushes free very chilly water 24/7/365

I picked up a defunct dehumidifier carcass with a failed fan motor recently along the roadside. Coils and compressor are in fine shape

next summer, I want to try to feed cold spring water through the condensor coil, so that I pay only for electricity for the fan, not the compressor, of a dehumidifier.

but I do not want to just let the refrigerant out into the atmosphere, out of respect for the Ozone layer, & etc

anyone in the HVAC trades have any tips of how I can responsibly and affordably have someone pull the refrigerant out of this unit for re-use before I start to go BooWahhHAA HAA with my efforts to hack it into my new ground-source-heat-pump debumidifier?

that'll keep the basement drier for my Econoburn, while using a lot less electricity.

Thanks!

Trevor

 

[Redox]

Don't waste your time. The business end of the dehumidifier is nothing more than a coil of tubing (evaporator) that sweats from the refrigerant vaporizing on the inside. Buy a roll of 3/8 copper (already in the right shape) and make a bracket to support it vertically over a drain pan and voil-la, you have a dehumidifier.

The bad news is that most ground water isn't really cold enough for dehumidification. Normally, you need 45F or below to make it work. Unless you have an ice cube underground, I think the results are going to be disappointing. It will be better than nothing, but worth a try.

Regarding refrigerant recovery; there is a $10,000 fine for willingly venting refrigerant to the atmosphere. Recovery machines are expensive and only allowed to be used by a licensed technician. If you want to do this right, befriend someone in the business and see if you can talk them into doing it for you. Your local recycling center should have some names for you to call.

Chris

 

[mtfallsmikey]

So...did you call any HVAC contractors who are licensed to do this?...most residential dehumidifiers have less than 1 lb. of Freon in them, older ones used R-12.

 

[deerefanatic]

R12 stuff is worth money, so normally you can find a tech to suck it out for free as that stuff is big $$$ to buy..... Take this from a guy that has a classic car that uses it!..... About $120 worth of it to be exact!!

 

[Redox]

R12 stuff is worth money, so normally you can find a tech to suck it out for free as that stuff is big $$$ to buy..... Take this from a guy that has a classic car that uses it!..... About $120 worth of it to be exact!!

Most gearheads I know have switched to Freeze 12 or just dumped 134A in with good results.

Chris

 

[Valhalla]

This old dehumidifier may not have service valves to attach the refigerent recovery lines to, rather just crimped and soldered tubing.

 

[deerefanatic]

Yep, and in the case of no service valves, you use a piercing saddle valve to make a service port!

As for the gearheads going to Freeze 12 or 134A, well, maybe some... But all the guys that know, stay with R12... Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, cools like that stuff... Heck, Freeze 12 is 80% R134a...... If I was going to go with some blended refrigerant, I'd got with blended Propane and Isobutane...... Although Uncle Sammy doesn't like that either.... But then, what does he like?

 

[Valhalla]

Thanks for the saddle valve way, as now our pybyr friend has a refrigerate recovery solution before a certified guy can remove the R-12 or R-22 that may be in it.

 

[deerefanatic]

yah I need to get a saddle valve and start sucking freon out of friggies...... (I'm a certified Car Air Conditioning guy) that way I can sell the R12 stash I've got......

 

[Redox]

yah I need to get a saddle valve and start sucking freon out of friggies...... (I'm a certified Car Air Conditioning guy) that way I can sell the R12 stash I've got......

That, also, is against the law...

Chris

 

[deerefanatic]

yah I need to get a saddle valve and start sucking freon out of friggies...... (I'm a certified Car Air Conditioning guy) that way I can sell the R12 stash I've got......

That, also, is against the law...

Chris

Ahh sorry but no............ Educate yourself..

If your are section 608 (HVAC) certified, you can purchase all restricted refrigerants in containers of 20lb capacity or more.
If your are section 609 (MVAC - Mobile Vehicle Air Conditioning) - Which I AM - You may purchase all restricted refrigerants in containers of more than 20lb capacity as well as containers of less than 20lb capacity. Now, the state of Wisconsin does not allow sales of refrigerant of ANY type (unrestricted or not) in containers less than 20lb. But that's just a wisconsin state law.

Therefore, being that I'm Section 609 certified, my stash of R12 IS legal, and it IS legal for me to sell them to another 609 certified tech, other than in the state of Wisconsin..

And there is no law that says I cannot pull R12 out of a refrigerator and place it into a vehicle that was originally designed for R12. Now, it is illegal to put R12 into any system not designed for R12.

Just thought I'd get that straightened out..

 

[Corey]

oops - wrong button.

 

[Redox]

yah I need to get a saddle valve and start sucking freon out of friggies...... (I'm a certified Car Air Conditioning guy) that way I can sell the R12 stash I've got......

That, also, is against the law...

Chris

Ahh sorry but no............ Educate yourself..

If your are section 608 (HVAC) certified, you can purchase all restricted refrigerants in containers of 20lb capacity or more.
If your are section 609 (MVAC - Mobile Vehicle Air Conditioning) - Which I AM - You may purchase all restricted refrigerants in containers of more than 20lb capacity as well as containers of less than 20lb capacity. Now, the state of Wisconsin does not allow sales of refrigerant of ANY type (unrestricted or not) in containers less than 20lb. But that's just a wisconsin state law.

Therefore, being that I'm Section 609 certified, my stash of R12 IS legal, and it IS legal for me to sell them to another 609 certified tech, other than in the state of Wisconsin..

And there is no law that says I cannot pull R12 out of a refrigerator and place it into a vehicle that was originally designed for R12. Now, it is illegal to put R12 into any system not designed for R12.

Just thought I'd get that straightened out..

Yeah, actually there is...

If you want to sell virgin refrigerant to someone, that's one thing. It's an entirely different matter when the refrigerant is used. This gets into the difference between recycling, reclamation and recovery. You DO know the difference, don't you? What you were proposing was recovering the refrigerant from a refrigerator and selling it to someone else. There are several problems with this, legally and otherwise.

First off, section 609 only allows you to work on mobile air conditioners, not refrigerators, even though they may also contain R-12. To work on anything else, you need a 608 certification (I have a 608 universal certification, but still can't work on car A/C legally). Secondly, 609 allows you to reuse refrigerant in another vehicle, but 608 does not. When the refrigerant is recovered from anything but a car A/C, the EPA requires that it be reclaimed to ARI 700-1993 standards or recycled. It can be used in another machine owned by the same person, but not sold. Those are the legal reasons.

The average refrigerator contains less than 1/2 lb of refrigerant and would require you to recover 40-50 appliances to make that 20 lb cylinder. There's a high probability that one or more of those refrigerators will have a motor burnout. When the motor burns, all that motor insulation and refrigerant oil turns into carbon and acid. You definitely do not want to put contaminated refrigerant in anything you care about. If you want to sell your virgin refrigerant and take a chance on contaminating your own equipment, be my guest.

Agreed, though, that there's no better refrigerant than R-12, unless you start talking about hydrocarbons or ammonia - now there's a great refrigerant!

Chris

 

[deerefanatic]

Yah, for sure (On hydrocarbons and ammonia) though one's supposedly explosive (has anyone at the EPA ever had to fight with a #$%^ propane torch???) and the other is rather caustic!

Right, I knew I couldn't sell the stuff to someone else........

Actually, unless I entirely misunderstood, I could swear that the 609 materials I was studying said I could work on non-car air conditioning stuff as long as it wasn't "for compensation"..... Which a peanut butter sandwich can be called compensation..... but hey....

Either way, as we all can agree, pybyr's idea is not likely to work well...

 

[Redox]

609 only covers mobile air conditioners and doesn't address stationary equipment at all. 608 covers stationary equipment only and I suppose you would need dual certification if you are going to do both. Even my universal 608 certification that covers 1000+ ton chillers and very high pressure systems with exotic refrigerants won't allow me to work on my car, but it hasn't stopped me from doing so. I AM keeping within the spirit of the law and not venting anything, but I tend to operate on the fringes anyway!

I have been wanting to try propane in an air conditioner for a while, but the law in the US won't allow it. They are using it in Europe and I don't hear about any major problems with it. It's more efficient than any fluorocarbon available and has the potential to cut energy consumption thus saving CO2 emissions, but I doubt that we will see it here in the States. We used to use even nastier substances like methyl chloride and sodium dioxide as refrigerants, but they were really bad and couldn't be patented. When DuPont invented Freon, it was the answer to all our problems 'cept for ozone depletion and global warming. I have seen a resurgence in interest in ammonia, but only in industrial applications that have suitable safeguards in place. It also can be explosive as well as corrosive.

Now for a rant: How can anyone buy refrigerant over the counter if it's so bad for the environment? How come those computer dusters have the same chemical (134A) that I can be fined for if I were to vent it??? Every summer, I see CASES of the little cans of refrigerant flying out of the auto parts stores in the hands of people who I KNOW don't have a certification and Staples sells a boatload of the computer dusters. Why regulate part of the industry? Hooray for Wisconsin!

I feel better now. Flame on!

Chris

 

[deerefanatic]

I feel your pain and frustration......... Rumor has it that DuPont's behind the whole scheme.... IIRC, it was their scientists that found the "ozone depleting" properties of R12 and convinced the government to outlaw it....... Right around the time that their patents on R12 were expiring (and henceforth, competitors could make the stuff without paying royalties.....) Now it's looking like R134a might suffer the same fate..... Plus the insane logic of "can't use propane in car A/C because it's explosive"...... never mind the fact that the flash point of propane is wwwaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy higher than the gasoline that the EPA wants us all to burn in our cars... (Don't get me started on their anti-Diesel kick.....)

Either way, refrigerant laws are like tax laws.... Uncalled for, a pain in the @$$, and so complicated even they (the government) don't know for sure what they (the laws) say....