Froling is Believing! (Froling Boiler...Unbelievably Fully Automatic)

[vtquality]

Froling IS BELIEVING!
Ok, by admission I've been a voyeur on the boiler room to this point but, after hoogie's post on wanting to know which boiler was the best...I had to jump in!
I'd like to quickly share a experience in researching a wood boiler in my planning to build a vacation home in Vermont.
I saw four wood boilers w/ tanks in operation but, the there is one that I've not even refered to in this discussion room called Froling
Froling is out of this world in comparison to the the other gasification boilers I've seen and I've spent an inordinate amount of time on my research.
I had to go back several times to see this boiler in operation at a boiler dealer to believe what they were claiming.

Quickly here is what has me all wacked out (see the pictures I took below for reference):
1. Computer controlled Primary and Secondary air intakes (independently)as well as blower (variable speed). They all use input from: Oxygen Sensor, Flu Stack Temp, Sensor, Boiler Temp, & Heat storageTanks). It makes subtle changes throughout the burn for what seems to be a near perfect burn...I even asked to test it with wetter wood (30+%) to see what it would do and it accommodated. There is even a readout on the heat storage tank status (top and bottom...see pict below) that makes adjustments to the burn as the tanks temps get closer to being satisfied and conversely; seemed to go full bore if sensors (tanks & house return water temps) indicated.
2. Air Intake slot (look close at pict) above wood loading door pulls any smoke that would normally escape while loading (really works).
3. Lights with no kindling and very little paper placed in this center door (when you do need to light it...see #4)
4. Unbelievable ease relighting....Somehow this unit keeps a small bed of coals (28 hours later was my experience) so, all we did was throw in some smaller logs on the bottom and fully load the unit and close the door. It drew air at a slow rate then seemed to pick-up as it sensed heat in the flu...i think.
5." Aircraft quality" of materials and workmanship...is what the dealer coined and from what they showed me they were right.
6. Control panel could be adjusted to make this unit a 137btu or 170btu boiler and also had heat storage tank sensor inputs and circulator controls
7. While overall it wasn't the cheapist unit I looked at, It seemed worth extra couple thousand just to load logs and close the door and run.

Sun Wood Systems in Waitsfield, Vermont is the dealer I'm working with and indicated they were just getting to know the unit. I was impressed with their willingness to cater to my 4 month need for excessive research. Although it's going to cost me more, I'm glad I took so long.
These guys at Sunwood have very limited experience on this discussion panel but, I'm encouragin them to paricipate. They have some amazing projects going and are extremely accommodating, and have advised and preformed projects from homebuilt heat storage tanks to a unique automated switchgrass boiler project.

I was sure, it was too good to be true...Feel free to ask any questions....I'll get the dealer in here if need be...they seem very tuned-in to this industry.

 

[deanco66]

A couple of weeks ago, someone started a thread about the perfect gasifier. I believe this is pretty close with the automatic control that is utilized. Which I don't think is too hard to accomplish with the technology we have today. My thoughts are; Where there's a will, there's a way.
Nice score. I will have to research this one myself as well.
Dean

 

[stokes79]

what does a couple thousand more work out to? what does this unit cost? thanks

 

[pybyr]

#1- I am cleaning up the puddle of envious drool

#2- can I ask the exceedingly gauche question of the cost, in rounded numbers?

#3- anyone know the history/ track record of Froling?

I think I recall that it is a German company. I generally reatly_ admire German engineering, such as a Leica IIIF camera that I was given years agodating from 1952, and that still takes marvellously clear pictures as long as you learn how to run it.

that said, some modern German devices are a bit on the overcomplex side. I am thinking of the Mercedes/ Freightliner/ Dodge "Sprinter" vans, one of which I almost bought a few years ago, because the engineering and efficiency are just phenomenal- but now I am glad that I did not, because I have spoken with commercial users who said that they worked wonderfully until they ran into various sorts of trouble, at which point they were laid up for unusually long lengths of time waiting for parts, which then cost (parts + labor to install) mind-blowing amounts, representing significant fractions of the value of the vehicle at that point in its life, before they were on the road again. I can also think of some other multi-thousand-dollar microelectronics-based devices that became throw-aways half a dozen years after manufacture, because even the OEM could no longer source some of the integrated circuits and LCDs that they'd been built around after those parts (or the board that they were on) needed replacement

I am not trying to say that the Frolings will be prone to this- that looks like an _incredible_ unit- just wondering what the company's track record is, and curious about such factors

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

#2- can I ask the exceedingly gauche question of the cost, in rounded numbers?

The boilers, with storage, retail close to $20k. Add pumps, valves, piping, controls, freight, and professional installation, and I'd say that typical installed systems will be high 20's to low 30's, depending upon exactly what's involved in the particular installation.

Hopefully, that won't scare folks off, because it is a marvelous machine, for those who want to bite the bullet and deal with high up-front costs in return for high efficiency and operational convenience (light and go - no adjusting for different species, etc.). For example, my next install is a commercial office building, where the employees need to be able to easily operate the boiler. A more-complex boiler might intimidate employees (and it only saves money if actually operated), or end up being run improperly. I think there's a good residential market for the technology, but I think that the light commercial market is where it will really shine, allowing folks (who would otherwise not be able to consider wood heat) to install a system which is relatively-close to foolproof.

I keep tormenting Chris at BioHeat by threatening to find a commercial client with deep pockets, and install two of these right next to each other (one with all side contols on the left, and the other with all side controls on the right).

#3- anyone know the history/ track record of Froling?

(broken link removed to http://www.froeling.com/en/company/profile/companyhistory.html)

I think I recall that it is a German company.

Austrian.

Joe

 

[pybyr]

Thanks Joe- the part of me with Teutonic heritage (Alsace) is in full, unrestrained, drool.

Their unit that can run on chips, pellets or cordwood looks especially fascinating:

(broken link removed to http://www.froeling.com/en/products/pellet-waste_wood/turbomatic.html)

what are the odds that you and your contacts could get one of those for a pilot test, and if so, when? I have some ideas of who might be able to find a home for one (alas, not me....)

 

[hoth2oguy]

I know many on this forum will balk at the cost of the Froling - and that's OK. For those of you who are willing (and able) to create your own storage and do your own installation the installed cost can be significantly lower than what Joe mentioned. On the other hand, you same folks are probably willing and able to deal with a boiler that requires a bit more hands on involvement from the user and a Solo Plus or Solo Innova (or EKO or Econoburn, etc.) will meet your needs perfectly well.

But, for the customer who is considering spending (or has already spent) $30k+ on a solar PV system that will only take a bite out of their electric bill, or the customer who just wants the most efficient easiest to use wood boiler available, a full-on Froling installation makes a lot of sense. If that crosses the line into too much of a commercial, please allow for my full day of skiing and a couple of glasses of red wine! I only wanted to point out that while for many the cost of this boiler may be difficult to justify, there is a legitimate place in the market for it - think Weil-McClain / Peerless vs. Viessmann / Buderus. Any time any of you are in the area, we would be happy to show you the Froling in operation - even if you already have a wood boiler that you are happy with. We, like you, enjoy and appreciate wood boilers and are more than happy to engage a fellow sufferer in a bit of bench racing.

And Joe, there is a space on my wall just waiting for a picture of your first twinned / mirror image install of two Frolings. I can't wait!

 

[heaterman]

Froeling, Viessmann, Herlt.......the list goes on. As usual, it's frustrating to see the USA once again lagging so far behind the curve on another field of products.

I must say though that there are valid concerns with the electronic controls on not only these boilers but a lot of the high tech modulating/condensing "normal" boilers that are on the market today. Time will tell but from what I have seen, when the control on one of these wonderfully efficient machines fail, you can plan on being without heat for a day or three and then digging DEEP into your checkbook to pay for the repair. The precedent and example has already been set in the high efficiency gas boiler market and it's not very "user friendly" on occasion.

While I am 100% in favor of ultra clean burning and very high efficiency boilers of all types I think that consumers need to be made aware of the downside and manufacturers need to work hard at standardizing controls to bring repair and unit costs down to reasonable levels.

PS: I know for a fact there is currently a US manufacturer with a gasifier running with O2 sensor driven controls running in their lab.

 

[vtquality]

All good concerns but...
As far as the price I was on the line between two units this dealer Sun Wood Systems offers
The smaller unit which adjusts electronically somewhere between 80-100btu ($10k) and the larger one that adjusts between 135-170btu(a little over $12k)
So, I'm on tact for the larger one at this point and plan to increase my storage size.

As far as over kill in electronics and controls, no one is more of a devils advocate on this issue than this dealer.
I was deer in the headlights and could less. Dave there at Sunwood has been on the UK's version of this forum and apparently this specific unit has been maintaince free in most all counts after being sold from about 2003 (that's from memory). But, here's the scoop if there were a major failure:
1. the unit has to have better than average surge protection.
2. If there is a electronic board failure you can override the air intakes and open and close manually.
3. One of the circulator would need to be powered up in another manner since it is controlled by the board.
4. This dealer reassured me that they could get a new board overnight from the importer here in the US if necessary. I thinking he said about $1k on cost

Again, I can't say enough for these guys at Sunwood Systems they took me to four sites and showed me pictures of 30 or more basic and unique systems they have installed and consulted on.
I just called and left a message with one the owner at Sunwood since they should join and throw their hat in the ring.
Ron

 

[webbie]

Can you control it from an iphone?

 

[TCaldwell]

ok heaterman, you have teased us enough!, is this o2 driven boiler cordwood or chips, what could you tell us without getting in trouble

 

[Sting]

Sounds like a wonderful machine -- but how will a mechanic be able to keep it running for the next 5 - 10 - or (life expectancy of others) 20 years -- The Old Kewanee boiler and Iron fireman stoker in my basement was installed in 1955 - still running and parts still available - many off the shelf.

JOE--You just keep tormenting your supplier's - I am sure they all are endeared by it. Question: What will you tell your "deep pockets" customer in x years when you have to sell him a Jillion dollars of upgrade because the new version of control is no longer backwards compatible - (sort of like today -- try to fix a pc based on a 486 processor) Will you tell them how much they are saving burning chunk wood? That will be a great salesman's dance, from my perspective of you - its something your good at!

Anyone here have a 5 or 10 year old Cadillac that you no longer can get parts for -- Just try and find head bolts for certain models - obsolete by the manufacturer - not produced in the aftermarket because of low demand numbers - car is perfect but unrepairable -- It could be this boiler soon.

A new board today - overnight from some import guy for a grand -- what do you think it will be next year - $500 ??? $5000.00 ????

My point: Buy something that you can keep running without having the "GEEK SQUAD" on retainer and be sure its made with parts that have already stood the test of time - if you plan on driving it more that a year or two!

 

[vtquality]

Craig,
Ok....Ok I had that comming....yes, I'm a little wacked about this thing and I've had the red carpet treatment by this outfit.
Ron

 

[heaterman]

ok heaterman, you have teased us enough!, is this o2 driven boiler cordwood or chips, what could you tell us without getting in trouble

I'm not 100% but I believe it to be cordwood.

 

[vtquality]

My understanding is that this is where the future of efficient wood boilers are going, and who would have known that automotive electronic ignition was going to be the norm and not a wave while being affordable. I didn't run a spread sheet on it but I'm guessing I will have save (from efficent burning) all of the money necessary to replace everything while enjoying the ease of operation. The unit seems likel a basic boiler under the cloak of the controls and this company from my profiling them do a serious amount of global business and was founded sometime in the early 60's.

Sounds like a wonderful machine -- but how will a mechanic be able to keep it running for the next 5 - 10 - or (life expectancy of others) 20 years -- The Old Kewanee boiler and Iron fireman stoker in my basement was installed in 1955 - still running and parts still available - many off the shelf.

JOE--You just keep tormenting your supplier's - I am sure they all are endeared by it. Question: What will you tell your "deep pockets" customer in x years when you have to sell him a Jillion dollars of upgrade because the new version of control is no longer backwards compatible - (sort of like today -- try to fix a pc based on a 486 processor) Will you tell them how much they are saving burning chunk wood? That will be a great salesman's dance, from my perspective of you - its something your good at!

Anyone here have a 5 or 10 year old Cadillac that you no longer can get parts for -- Just try and find head bolts for certain models - obsolete by the manufacturer - not produced in the aftermarket because of low demand numbers - car is perfect but unrepairable -- It could be this boiler soon.

A new board today - overnight from some import guy for a grand -- what do you think it will be next year - $500 ??? $5000.00 ????

My point: Buy something that you can keep running without having the "GEEK SQUAD" on retainer and be sure its made with parts that have already stood the test of time - if you plan on driving it more that a year or two!

 

[pybyr]

Sounds like a wonderful machine -- but how will a mechanic be able to keep it running for the next 5 - 10 - or (life expectancy of others) 20 years -- The Old Kewanee boiler and Iron fireman stoker in my basement was installed in 1955 - still running and parts still available - many off the shelf.

JOE--You just keep tormenting your supplier's - I am sure they all are endeared by it. Question: What will you tell your "deep pockets" customer in x years when you have to sell him a Jillion dollars of upgrade because the new version of control is no longer backwards compatible - (sort of like today -- try to fix a pc based on a 486 processor) Will you tell them how much they are saving burning chunk wood? That will be a great salesman's dance, from my perspective of you - its something your good at!

Anyone here have a 5 or 10 year old Cadillac that you no longer can get parts for -- Just try and find head bolts for certain models - obsolete by the manufacturer - not produced in the aftermarket because of low demand numbers - car is perfect but unrepairable -- It could be this boiler soon.

A new board today - overnight from some import guy for a grand -- what do you think it will be next year - $500 ??? $5000.00 ????

My point: Buy something that you can keep running without having the "GEEK SQUAD" on retainer and be sure its made with parts that have already stood the test of time - if you plan on driving it more that a year or two!

Hmm- I respect Joe a lot, so do not want to join in any swipes at him- but hmm- glad that I am not the only one around here who, from experience, has learned to prefer things that are a wee bit sub-optimal but sturdy and self-repairable over things that are uber-ideal under ideal circumstances, and then basically SOL and a total loss unless you can pay some huge bill for parts and labor. I am not saying that the Froeling is the latter- although complexity tends to define such territories

 

[Sting]

The unit seems likel a basic boiler under the cloak of the controls and this company from my profiling them do a serious amount of global business and was founded sometime in the early 60's.

Cadillac cars have been produced since 1902

Technology is a great helper - Its the reason we are chatting her tonight - but its also has changed to life cycle of products that we all share the chagrin of! -- Are you old enough to remember what "Made in Japan" used to mean?

And these are little cheep throw away radios!

 

[heaterman]

Sounds like a wonderful machine -- but how will a mechanic be able to keep it running for the next 5 - 10 - or (life expectancy of others) 20 years -- The Old Kewanee boiler and Iron fireman stoker in my basement was installed in 1955 - still running and parts still available - many off the shelf.

JOE--You just keep tormenting your supplier's - I am sure they all are endeared by it. Question: What will you tell your "deep pockets" customer in x years when you have to sell him a Jillion dollars of upgrade because the new version of control is no longer backwards compatible - (sort of like today -- try to fix a pc based on a 486 processor) Will you tell them how much they are saving burning chunk wood? That will be a great salesman's dance, from my perspective of you - its something your good at!

Anyone here have a 5 or 10 year old Cadillac that you no longer can get parts for -- Just try and find head bolts for certain models - obsolete by the manufacturer - not produced in the aftermarket because of low demand numbers - car is perfect but unrepairable -- It could be this boiler soon.

A new board today - overnight from some import guy for a grand -- what do you think it will be next year - $500 ??? $5000.00 ????

My point: Buy something that you can keep running without having the "GEEK SQUAD" on retainer and be sure its made with parts that have already stood the test of time - if you plan on driving it more that a year or two!

Speaking of caddy's........I was, of all things installing a control board update package on a 6 year old boiler in an auto repair facility a couple weeks ago and the topic of electronic controls came up with the owner of the place. He pointed to a recent vintage Cadillac in one of the bays and related how the entire car ceased to function because the radio quit. Seems that all the electronics are linked up and if one piece of the puzzle "gets lost" the whole thing shuts down. To me, that's not engineering that will bring GM back from the brink. It's also the type of complexity I don't want to see in stuff I sell. I hate this scenario.........." I'm sorry Mr Jones, the PC board that controls your 6 year old boiler has failed and the part has been replaced. There is an update kit available that costs $985.00. What would you like me to do?" I usually don't win friends and influence people in that circumstance.

 

[Sting]

The caddy radio issue was forced upon us by our insurance carriers in cahoots with our government -- When the radio is (removed) stolen the car cannot be driven -- lot of good that does us when the car is already in the chop shop!

Buy any tires lately and have to replace the TMPS in each wheel?

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

JOE--You just keep tormenting your supplier's - I am sure they all are endeared by it.

Chris certainly seems amused.

Question: What will you tell your "deep pockets" customer in x years when you have to sell him a Jillion dollars of upgrade because the new version of control is no longer backwards compatible - (sort of like today -- try to fix a pc based on a 486 processor) Will you tell them how much they are saving burning chunk wood? That will be a great salesman's dance, from my perspective of you - its something your good at!

I'm not a salesman. I give customers the information on a variety of options, and let them make an informed choice. Fact is, I dob't make a penny more on a Fröling than on an Innova, so I'm certainly not giving them any sort of bias in my recommendations.

My point: Buy something that you can keep running without having the "GEEK SQUAD" on retainer and be sure its made with parts that have already stood the test of time - if you plan on driving it more that a year or two!

These are not new boilers. They're just new to the US. Nothing other than the control board is really "custom" (for example, the servo actuators that control the air are standard Belimo units). And Fröling uses the same control board for quite a number of boilers (the installer tells the board what boiler it is connected to), so obsolescence is not exactly a likely problem.

Any more issues?

In any case, if America is going to become independent of oil, it's only going to happen with high-efficiency, user friendly heating systems. Low-efficiency systems that use two or three times as much fuel (or more) simply cannot make that happen, given the number of acres it takes to produce fuel for any given residence on a sustainable basis.

Joe

 

[cguida]

What a terrible thing -- Boiler Envy...

...It's been
the Ruin
of Many a Poor Boy...
And Lord, I know
I'm one.

Clearly, this is a company that does everything right, including just the right name. "Froeling" -- isn't that German for "Spring?" On a cold, dark January night, what could sound better -- more hopeful -- than "Spring."

Really only one question -- is there a Froeling dealer out there who will finance my pruchase, and shoehorn payments into the space where my existing fuel budget used to be?

That, plus shipping to Eastern Maine, zip code 04628. Just show me where to sign!

Last night the temperature here rose to above 35; new lambs in the barn. Ah, Spring -- and an old man's thoughts turn to... reverse engineering.

To those that know the Froeling boiler, can you explain what makes it different from a Tarm (Solo)? For example, from the pictures, it appears not to have a manual by-pass plate -- that big plate on the end of the springloaded arm that sticks out the front of a Tarm. (Apparently the Tarm Innova doesn't have this big plate by-pass thing either).

Does the Froeling have some other kind of motor-activated plate by-pass under computer control? Or does it dispense with a physical plate all together? What does it do instead to get itself started?

Besides draft and the balance between the various air intakes, what else is there for the computer to manipulate? Can it change anything physical besides air?

Lambda Sensor(ing) is a new idea to me. On the off chance that there are other people out there as backward as I am, here is a link that explains it.

(broken link removed to http://www.energysolutionscenter.org/boilerburner/Eff_Improve/Efficiency/Oxygen_Control.asp)

Makes you wonder -- if you had the sensors in place, and controlled the air, couldn't you improve the efficiency of just about any boiler with a standard laptop and some fuzzy logic?
The Froeling Operators manual ( (broken link removed) ) lists Softwood as a "permitted fuel." Has anybody tried burning softwood in this boiler? Any first hand experience as to burn times and heat output?
Would it be practial to load just once or twice a day with softwood? Would the boiler keep a bed of coals more or less like with hardwood?
The Tarm people recommended not burning softwood in their boilers. I wonder just what is it about the Froeling boiler that makes softwood fuel an option.

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

To those that know the Froeling boiler, can you explain what makes it different from a Tarm (Solo)? For example, from the pictures, it appears not to have a manual by-pass plate -- that big plate on the end of the springloaded arm that sticks out the front of a Tarm. (Apparently the Tarm Innova doesn't have this big plate by-pass thing either).

Does the Froeling have some other kind of motor-activated plate by-pass under computer control? Or does it dispense with a physical plate all together? What does it do instead to get itself started?

There's no traditional smoke bypass. When the loading door is open, there's a port opened just above the door that captures any smoke trying to leak out while you have it open (if you open it during a burn). As far as lighting, the fan simply pulls air downward through the nozzle and out. The small door in the middle is for lighting: you load paper, a bit of kindling, and all your wood for the burn, then you close the upper (loading) door and open the small door, through which you light the paper. Activate the fan, give it a few seconds, and close the door. The boiler does the rest.

Besides draft and the balance between the various air intakes, what else is there for the computer to manipulate? Can it change anything physical besides air?

The computer controls the draft fan speed as well as both the primary and secondary air. The only other thing it has control over is the boiler pump. European versions have a few more features, which are disabled to simplicity in the US.

They monitor residual oxygen in the flue gas, as well as flue temp, boiler temp, upper storage temp and lower storage temp, and whether the main door is open or not.

The Froeling Operators manual ( (broken link removed) ) lists Softwood as a "permitted fuel." Has anybody tried burning softwood in this boiler? Any first hand experience as to burn times and heat output?
Would it be practial to load just once or twice a day with softwood? Would the boiler keep a bed of coals more or less like with hardwood?
The Tarm people recommended not burning softwood in their boilers. I wonder just what is it about the Froeling boiler that makes softwood fuel an option.

These boilers require the use of heat storage, so "keeping a bed of coals" isn't something that you want. They are designed for a solid, hot burn. Because of that, they are much less temperamental about fuel.

Joe

 

[Jim K in PA]

These boilers require the use of heat storage, so "keeping a bed of coals" isn't something that you want. They are designed for a solid, hot burn. Because of that, they are much less temperamental about fuel.

Joe

And that , IMHO, is the fundamental difference between a "user friendly" solid fuel heating system and one that is not. Heat storage is key to making a system compatible with the average John or Jane's capabilities, interest and skills, as well as the typical American lifestyle.

Thanks for the explanations & descriptions, Joe. The Froeling is a nicely put together machine. What are the capabilities that are disabled to "dumb" it down for us American luddites?

 

[flyingcow]

Joe, its mentioned that you torment your supplier, Chris. Bring up my user name to him and mention that I believe I was the one tormented in my case, so he deserves a few good pops. :coolsmile: I'll pay you $5 bucks a pop(in monopoly money )But he did always respond to my concerns, thumbs up! A bunch of Tarm swag might help.


From my research, and i could have justified the additional $$$, the Froling would have been the way to go. But long story short(ask Chris) I got the Innova. Starts and runs quick and efficient. Just starting out, learning every time I get near it.

Joe, I believe you mentioned that you called the Innova a cadillac and the Froling a mercedes or rolls royce(something like that). So i've got the cadillac of boilers.......hope nobody steals my radio

 

[Galroc]

Does this Froling and other types of gasification boilers use outside air?