From the SpaceBus to a boat!

[Ashful]

My wife wants to get into sailing. Would you suggest a wooden boat for a beginner? Obviously I'll also be betting into sailing if she wants to.

First things first: Expectations. My wife knew I grew up with boats, and that I had been missing them, when she suggested I go buy one fifteen years ago. But in her mind, a sailboat was a place you sat on the water, while drinking wine and eating exotic cheese. In my mind, a boat is an object to which you hang on for dear life, while skipping across the water at speed, and soaking yourself in the process. The point being, know what you want to get out of this, and be sure you and whoever will be joining you agree on the basics.

Second: I'd start with a roto-molded or glass boat, only adding a woodie to the fleet after you're pretty solid on your boat handling. You're going to crash this thing HARD into the dock, at least a few times in your first year or two. You're going to capsize, rip things, bend things, and all sorts of stupid stuff that will have you spending more time repairing and fretting over a wood boat, than enjoying it. You'd not turn the keys of a classic muscle car over to any 16 year old driver, no matter how responsible they may be, because stuff just happens when you're a beginner.

More later, in the meantime... expectations?

 

[SpaceBus]

I don't think she is looking for a racing boat experience. More along the lines of cheese and wine, which is also my boat speed as well.

 

[Ashful]

Cool. The you're looking for a keelboat. They may weeble and wobble, but they won't fall down.



Other options, if you want to keep it more trailerable for dry sailing (as opposed to mooring), are cat boats (monohull) or some of the slower catamarans (twin hull).

Lake, river, bay or ocean?

 

[SpaceBus]

Cool. The you're looking for a keelboat. They may weeble and wobble, but they won't fall down.

View attachment 296248

Other options, if you want to keep it more trailerable for dry sailing (as opposed to mooring), are cat boats (monohull) or some of the slower catamarans (twin hull).

Lake, river, bay or ocean?

Probably start with lake, move to bay, and some day ocean. I will read about keel boats, cat boats, and catamarans. We will want something trailer-able.

 

[Ashful]

Most keelboats are trailerable, but the trailers are high (due to the keel) and the launching process is tedious. So most owners of them tend to put them in the water for more than just the day, preferring to rent a slip or a mooring for the season. The issue with trailer height is that you need to get the trailer a long ways down the ramp to float the boat off of it. This means trailers with extendible tongues, and ramps with sufficient run-out into the water.



Boats with centerboards or dagger boards can fully withdraw them, meaning they can sit as low on a trailer as a powerboat, and they're easy to trailer launch for just a few hours' use.



There's an in-between, boats with a swing keel. These usually have some small fixed part, with an additional (heavy) swinging part that's lowered after you're in the water. Some of them trailer almost as low as a centerboard boat, with nearly the stability of a keelboat.



Don't read much into the size of the boats shown. Centerboard and daggerboard boats tend to be smaller, but keelboats and swing keels can be had in almost any size (small or big) you'd want to use on a lake or bay.

Then there's also catamarans. Most think of the old high-performance Hobie's, but there are also some pretty tame cats, if that's what you're into. Some of the newer ones are pretty convenient for trailering, even being collapsible to deal with the width issue. See the Hobie 16 (or Wave) for a good example.

 

[begreen]

Unless you love boat maintenance I would stay away from a wooden boat. They are classic and beautiful, but it takes work to keep them looking good and shipshape. If the goal is low maintenance, then the less brightwork the better. A drop keel is a good idea for trailering.

 

[SpaceBus]

Thanks for the suggestions. I Liked the cat boats and swing/drop keel. There's a house a mile or so as the crow flies with a 40-ish foot sail boat, I'm assuming a keel boat because it never leaves the water, and he keep it "parked" (moored?) just out in a deeper part of the river where it meets the bay. We see it pass by the house at least once a week. Before seeing this boat I didn't realize you could just leave them in the water all the time. I would think there is some kind of maintenance that must be done for something staying half submerged in salt water, but I clearly have no idea.

My wife's grandfather has a boat that he talks about selling or gifting to her or her brother. However, it's a 30-ish foot Keel Boat with a tall trailer. Grandad also lives in New Mexico, but took the boat out to Elephant Butte lake before he got too old to run it by himself. I'm not sure we will ever get this boat, but I'm telling this brief story to indicate this is about all of my boat knowledge. My wife remembers going out with her Grampy in power boats, but never got to ride on the sail boat with him. I've ridden in shallow hulled power boats, but have no interest in owning something like that. I have seen one picture of this boat, and it does ride on a really tall trailer. It has a cabin and could be nice weekend boat, I'm assuming.

 

[begreen]

A smaller boat might be better to begin with. The second boat we built was 52'. The owner was a novice and did a fair amount of dock damage learning how to park the boat (steel hull). Something like a 22-28' Catalina is a good starter boat.

1979 Catalina 22 C 22 drop keel — For Sale — Sailboat Guide

Discover your dream boat

sailboat.guide

 

[SpaceBus]

I've been looking at similar length catboats. This probably won't happen for 2-5 years from now, but I know nothing about boats, so it's good to start learning now.

 

[begreen]

Paging @webbie. The originator of Hearth.com had a cat boat. He can tell you a lot about them.

 

[SpaceBus]

Paging @webbie. The originator of Hearth.com had a cat boat. He can tell you a lot about them.

From what I've read about them they seem like a good option for the coasts and bays where we live. The water can be quite shallow and many of the catboats I've seen have a draft of 1.75-2.5', which is amazing to me. I also read many catboats were built in new England, so nice to have a piece of history some day.

 

[Woodcutter Tom]

@SpaceBus Here is some required reading for you. Enjoy.

I had a 16 foot Hobie Cat in my younger days. Was a heck of a lot of fun. Had a 21 foot motorboat too. Both have their advantages.

And remember a "boat is a hole in the water, into which you throw money”.
“The happiest day of a boat owner’s life is the day they buy the boat and the day they sell it.”

 

[begreen]

Cat boats are fast. They are not exactly for the leisurely wine set.

 

[Ashful]

Cat boats are fast. They are not exactly for the leisurely wine set.

I was really surprised to read this, as there are three very active cat boats at my lake (one is owned by a friend of mine), and they're all pretty slow boats. I even out-pace them in the little plastic boat I bought for my kids to learn sailing. But a few minutes on Google taught me, there are some makers out there building "Racing Catboats", whereas I guess the ones I know are the "Cruising Catboats".

My buddy owns a 14 foot Areys Pond glass cat with some wooden rails and lockers, which is really a pretty boat. Not fast at all, but he has fun with it. The other two I see at our lake are both Com-Pac's, and they're built more beamy than barges, they appear to displace several tons of water in their relatively short length. They appear to be great boats for hosting guests, likely the wine and cheese cruise my wife thought she was getting, when she told me to buy a boat.

Hirschoff is/was one of the most well-known builders of cat boats, and I believe they're in your neighborhood, SpaceBus.

 

[PaulOinMA]

Mystic Seaport has sailing classes.

Sailing Programs and Classes in Mystic, CT - Mystic Seaport Museum

No matter your age or your skill level, sailing at Mystic Seaport Museum is an unparalleled experience. Choose from one of our many sailing programs now!

www.mysticseaport.org

Wooden boat show is later this month. We usually go.

(broken link removed to https://www.mysticseaport.org/event-directory/woodenboat-show-2022/)

 

[begreen]

I was really surprised to read this, as there are three very active cat boats at my lake (one is owned by a friend of mine), and they're all pretty slow boats. I even out-pace them in the little plastic boat I bought for my kids to learn sailing. But a few minutes on Google taught me, there are some makers out there building "Racing Catboats", whereas I guess the ones I know are the "Cruising Catboats".

My buddy owns a 14 foot Areys Pond glass cat with some wooden rails and lockers, which is really a pretty boat. Not fast at all, but he has fun with it. The other two I see at our lake are both Com-Pac's, and they're built more beamy than barges, they appear to displace several tons of water in their relatively short length. They appear to be great boats for hosting guests, likely the wine and cheese cruise my wife thought she was getting, when she told me to buy a boat.

Hirschoff is/was one of the most well-known builders of cat boats, and I believe they're in your neighborhood, SpaceBus.

Out here there are a lot of Hobie cats scooting around. They can move.

 

[PaulOinMA]

Good friend from high school races a J/105 out of Annapolis. Santa's Reign Dear. Videos online.

 

[Ashful]

Out here there are a lot of Hobie cats scooting around. They can move.

Yeah, some of the Hobie catamarans are fast, but catboats are slow work boats.

Hobie "cat" = catamaran:

Catboat = monohull:

The main characteristics of a catboat are a single mast way forward (almost on the bow stem), gaff rig, very beamy (like beam = length/2!), and a very short skeg instead of a keel. Like a catamaran with kick-up rudders, it can be sailed right up onto a beach.

But on the topic of catamarans, Hobie actually makes some very beginner-friendly cats now, most notably the Wave. I started seeing them stocked at rental places, and actually rented one for two days in Bermuda. My then 6-year old son had no trouble handling it, they're pretty tame, nothing like the trapeze-rigged variant shown above.

 

[SpaceBus]

Mystic Seaport has sailing classes.

Sailing Programs and Classes in Mystic, CT - Mystic Seaport Museum

No matter your age or your skill level, sailing at Mystic Seaport Museum is an unparalleled experience. Choose from one of our many sailing programs now!

www.mysticseaport.org

Wooden boat show is later this month. We usually go.

(broken link removed to https://www.mysticseaport.org/event-directory/woodenboat-show-2022/)

My wife found some sailing classes just an hour or so south of us down the coast, but Mystic sounds like a nice place.

Cat boats are fast. They are not exactly for the leisurely wine set.

I was really surprised to read this, as there are three very active cat boats at my lake (one is owned by a friend of mine), and they're all pretty slow boats. I even out-pace them in the little plastic boat I bought for my kids to learn sailing. But a few minutes on Google taught me, there are some makers out there building "Racing Catboats", whereas I guess the ones I know are the "Cruising Catboats".

My buddy owns a 14 foot Areys Pond glass cat with some wooden rails and lockers, which is really a pretty boat. Not fast at all, but he has fun with it. The other two I see at our lake are both Com-Pac's, and they're built more beamy than barges, they appear to displace several tons of water in their relatively short length. They appear to be great boats for hosting guests, likely the wine and cheese cruise my wife thought she was getting, when she told me to buy a boat.

Hirschoff is/was one of the most well-known builders of cat boats, and I believe they're in your neighborhood, SpaceBus.

I found this website a few days ago and they do catboat cruises near Cape Cod. We are not looking for fast, just a nice fat stable cruising boat.

@Ashful after looking at some pictures I understand what you mean about the displacement. Those catboats are very wide compared to the sleek keel boats I'm sure you are more interested in. I've also noticed that catboats rarely seem to exceed 30', which surprised me. The shallow draft is a big selling point for me, because a lot of the water here on the Maine coast is shallow and muddy or rocky depending on where you are.

 

[EbS-P]

My wife found some sailing classes just an hour or so south of us down the coast, but Mystic sounds like a nice place.





I found this website a few days ago and they do catboat cruises near Cape Cod. We are not looking for fast, just a nice fat stable cruising boat.

@Ashful after looking at some pictures I understand what you mean about the displacement. Those catboats are very wide compared to the sleek keel boats I'm sure you are more interested in. I've also noticed that catboats rarely seem to exceed 30', which surprised me. The shallow draft is a big selling point for me, because a lot of the water here on the Maine coast is shallow and muddy or rocky depending on where you are.

Wooden boats and milling timber. Probably not the scale you want to start out with but you can dream and/or live vicariously through others dreams.

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[SpaceBus]

I would love to build my own canoe or something like that, but we don't even have a garage yet 😂I'll have to give the video a watch later. We live in a spruce/fir forest, so we could theoretically build a boat. Would have to buy some of the hardwood logs unless birch or tamarack are good alternatives to oak, mahogany, etc.

 

[Ashful]

If you want to talk to a guy who owns a 14' Areys Pond Catboat, and is a big fan of all things catboat-adjacent, I can probably put you in touch with one of my buddies down here. He's retirement age, and used to crew and sail on Thistles, before aging out of them. He's also done a lot of work on wooden boats, worked on river boats, etc.

Here's his little (unusually shallow) catboat, fiberglass hull with some pretty wooden brightwork rails and lockers. Maybe an ideal combination of looks and low maintenance. The only thing I'd say against his boat is that he's still running wooden spars, which makes it impossible to daysail it, that mast is too heavy to step easily on your own. If I were getting something like this, I'd upgrade it to modern aluminum or carbon spars, which they actually paint a faux wood color.

These are some photos I took of him last year, just using an iphone while on the little plastic dinghy with my kids. We often try to sail on the same day, it's more fun when you know others on the water. It's real fun to bring the super soakers in July, and play pirate wars. Avast!

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the correction on the catboat. We don't see too many out here, at least on Puget Sound. The smaller J-boats are more popular craft. Seems to be more of an east coast style. They look like they would be tricky in a strong wind with all that weight up front.

It looks like Craig's boat wasn't a cat, it was a tri-hull Corsair Sprint 750. And yes, it could move.

» Corsair Sprint 750

www.windcraft.net

 

[SpaceBus]

Thanks for the correction on the catboat. We don't see too many at all here. The smaller J-boats are more popular craft. Seems to be more of an east coast style. They look like they would be tricky in a strong wind with all that weight up front.

It looks like Craig's boat wasn't a cat, it was a tri-hull Corsair Sprint 750. And yes, it could move.

» Corsair Sprint 750

www.windcraft.net

Supposedly they are the most stable boats in their size class, short of an actual catamaran, despite the mast placement. I'm pretty sure most catboats have a fair bit of built in ballast from the huge beams and they normally have a large centerboard, which is also very heavy.

If you want to talk to a guy who owns a 14' Areys Pond Catboat, and is a big fan of all things catboat-adjacent, I can probably put you in touch with one of my buddies down here. He's retirement age, and used to crew and sail on Thistles, before aging out of them. He's also done a lot of work on wooden boats, worked on river boats, etc.

Here's his little (unusually shallow) catboat, fiberglass hull with some pretty wooden brightwork rails and lockers. Maybe an ideal combination of looks and low maintenance. The only thing I'd say against his boat is that he's still running wooden spars, which makes it impossible to daysail it, that mast is too heavy to step easily on your own. If I were getting something like this, I'd upgrade it to modern aluminum or carbon spars, which they actually paint a faux wood color.

These are some photos I took of him last year, just using an iphone while on the little plastic dinghy with my kids. We often try to sail on the same day, it's more fun when you know others on the water. It's real fun to bring the super soakers in July, and play pirate wars. Avast!

View attachment 296297 View attachment 296298

That thing looks pretty fast! The width is a big selling point to me on the cat boats. I'm not a "purist" or anything that must have a wood boat, but they are certainly pretty!

 

[Ashful]

Thanks for the correction on the catboat. We don't see too many out here, at least on Puget Sound. The smaller J-boats are more popular craft. Seems to be more of an east coast style. They look like they would be tricky in a strong wind with all that weight up front.

It looks like Craig's boat wasn't a cat, it was a tri-hull Corsair Sprint 750. And yes, it could move.

» Corsair Sprint 750

www.windcraft.net

I'll be honest with you. The first time my buddy shown in those photos above started talking about catboats, I think I did the same thing as you, and gave him a confused look. I knew he wanted something slower and easier, and catamarans aren't exactly known for that, I don't think I really knew what a "catboat" was back then.

Yeah, those F-750 Sprints are seriously fast, but also more stable than my boat. They look like a heck of a lot of fun.

Supposedly they are the most stable boats in their size class, short of an actual catamaran, despite the mast placement. I'm pretty sure most catboats have a fair bit of built in ballast from the huge beams and they normally have a large centerboard, which is also very heavy.


That thing looks pretty fast! The width is a big selling point to me on the cat boats. I'm not a "purist" or anything that must have a wood boat, but they are certainly pretty!

I'll be at the lake this weekend. I'll try to track down at least one of the cat boat sailors to ask them about stability, but I do get the same impression as you, they look very stable.

However, I already have one recent reference point on catboat stabiity. Last Thursday I saw a forecast for 25 - 35 mph winds... serious stuff for inland lake sailors. I packed up the kids and the plastic boat, and headed out to the lake for some fun, where I found I was only one of three sailboats venturing out in those conditions. About 70% of our 650 dock slips were filled, but apparently no one felt like venturing out on such a windy day, despite beautiful partly-cloudy skies and 80F weather.

Anyway, out on the water, one of the only two other boats was an older couple (begreen's age ) in a catboat. It looked more like the Com-Pac 17's than my friend's little Areys Pond 14, but I don't recall any sail logo telling me the brand. The skipper was clearly very inexperienced (and his crew appeared to be an apprehensive first-timer), as they kept getting stuck blowing backwards in irons. In most small boats, especially gaff-rigged, this would lead to a capsize, but they stayed nice and flat in the water the whole time. I sailed a few loops around them, wondering if I could help, but their boat was likely more than 6x the displacement of what we were sailing and it was way to windy for them to even hear me over rattling sail cloth from any safe distance in such a blow, so I had to satisfy myself with just keeping an eye on them as we continued darting around that end of the lake. Eventually they managed to figure out the right combination of sheet and tiller to be on their way, and I lost track of them after awhile, but I was actually impressed with how stable the boat was on such a windy day with an essentially dead helm.