Anyone have a ballpark on the cost of a geothermal system installed in MA? I am building a house next summer and trying to figure out if it is a possibilty. If it matters we will probably buy a lot in the range of 1-1.5 acres. Thanks for any information
Geothermal Cost In Massachusetts area
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I have heard of quotes in the 12k range, but I believe that was for existing duct work from the furnace. If you are building on a new lot, it will be easier to install the tubing in trenches instead of in deep wells like is often done on existing lots to minimize the amount of re-landscaping. I have some links to geothermal sites around, I can forward them if you like.
If you plan on having central a/c,-- any kind of heat pump of geo thermal would pay for itself. just guessing.
flyingcow said:
Amen, brother! With the price of fossil fuels going the way they are, a heat pump makes sense in just about any climate. They are only a couple hundred more dollars than an AC unit.
And stop calling it Geothermal! ;-P
Chris
The cost depends on the size of your house, an the insulation...
If you looking for the cost over the cost of another forced air system, i.e., all need the duct work, I'd say the geothermal will run (roughly) $20-$25K more than an oil/NGas/Conventional air-to-air heat pump. Some is of cost is the higher cost of the HP and the additional cost of the geothermal tap. This is a very rough guess, but I'd say if you're over 1,500 sq feet, forget the $12K estimate.
There may be rebates to help from the power company, or your state.
Do a search on geothermal, there have been long threads on this subject in past months.
If you looking for the cost over the cost of another forced air system, i.e., all need the duct work, I'd say the geothermal will run (roughly) $20-$25K more than an oil/NGas/Conventional air-to-air heat pump. Some is of cost is the higher cost of the HP and the additional cost of the geothermal tap. This is a very rough guess, but I'd say if you're over 1,500 sq feet, forget the $12K estimate.
There may be rebates to help from the power company, or your state.
Do a search on geothermal, there have been long threads on this subject in past months.
The cost is going to depend on the heating/cooling load and the type of installation (vertical or horizontal loop). If this is a decent sized home >2000 sq ft. I would expect it to be closer to $25K or more installed if you included the excavation. The compressor cost might be reduced if you spend up front for a super insulated home with 8", staggered 2x4 walls.
biohill, "hold on" don't think the low bidder on this forum will be attainable. This isn't sour-grapes, but don't want you to get your econo-hopes up too high. If you make it for $12K let us know who, it may get them a lot more business.
I am very happy with my geoghermal HP, have owned it for over 15 years, trouble-free. With the NJ electric rates up to 20 cents per KWH, the efficiency pays even greater dividends.
I am very happy with my geoghermal HP, have owned it for over 15 years, trouble-free. With the NJ electric rates up to 20 cents per KWH, the efficiency pays even greater dividends.
biohill said:
Building new is obviously the best (and most cost effective) time to install Geothermal HVAC... From what I've heard, most estimates are approximately 20% higher than a conventional oil or gas fired HVAC system. IMHO, that's pretty good considering that, if combined with a decent PV solar array at some point down the road, or even better, during construction, you effectively have FREE heat and AC. Over the life of a 30 year mortgage, that extra 20% initial outlay will pay for itself a hundred fold or more, AND with solar electricity you won't be at the mercy of rising fossil fuel costs. (at least not for heat). just my 2 cents
I just got a quote today on our 3K square foot house. This would include a new well and all new duct work as we currently have oil fired forced hot water and baseboard can't be used. The well would be approx. 10K as it would need to be at least 680 feet deep and have 6-8 gallons per minute. The inside work would be 32-35K. A lot of money but still a good long term investment if staying in the house for 10 years or more.
bigblue (IBM?)
Your numbers are in the ball-park of what I would have guessed. I have two 500 foot "wells" (vertical ground loops) and that was about $4K 15 years ago. Sounds like your contractor plans on only one loop, but a lot deeper. That may be because of the water table. We hit water here in the 50 feet or so and solid (well for house) at 120 feet. So most of my 500 foot loops are immersed in water.
I've been watching the loop input temperature during these days of heavy air conditioning in the NYC area and that has, in low speed of my two speed system, about 68 degrees. That's a lot better than the air outside, in the 90s. That's were the efficiency of the geo-system comes from.
Your numbers are in the ball-park of what I would have guessed. I have two 500 foot "wells" (vertical ground loops) and that was about $4K 15 years ago. Sounds like your contractor plans on only one loop, but a lot deeper. That may be because of the water table. We hit water here in the 50 feet or so and solid (well for house) at 120 feet. So most of my 500 foot loops are immersed in water.
I've been watching the loop input temperature during these days of heavy air conditioning in the NYC area and that has, in low speed of my two speed system, about 68 degrees. That's a lot better than the air outside, in the 90s. That's were the efficiency of the geo-system comes from.
bigblue said:
6-8 GPM??? I don't think you are supposed to be removing the water from the well. They are supposed to just be dry wells backfilled with bentonite or other "filler".
Chris
Oh, I didn't read carefully, you are saying a open loop system, feed from a 680' deep well? That's a lot of lift if you're not running the water back down to help "suck" the water up. My system is closed loop, so the pumps, there are two, have to push the water around the loop, not lift it 500'.
Redox said:
This is a standing column design. So water is returned to the well unless the temperature in the well changes a certain amount and then it is bled off. Not sure why they quoted this type, I'll have to ask. But they put in over 150 systems last year so they ought to know what they're doing. Still have a big decision to make.
I have a friend that has a system like this and he complains that his drinking water is hot in the summer!
I always thought putting anything back into a well was verboten, but I'm no authority on the subject. Where are you going to bleed the water to?
How much are well drillers charging these days?
Inquiring minds...
Chris
I always thought putting anything back into a well was verboten, but I'm no authority on the subject. Where are you going to bleed the water to?
How much are well drillers charging these days?
Inquiring minds...
Chris
If water needs to be bled off it is piped into either a dry well, foundation drain, or other drain area. This would need to be piped as part of the installation obviously and be something that could handle several gallons a minute if needed. They said many systems rarely bleed off but it needs to be there in case.
Warm drinking water in the summer; something to think about.
The other thing I was told is many places with existing wells have a different well drilled for the geo.
Warm drinking water in the summer; something to think about.
The other thing I was told is many places with existing wells have a different well drilled for the geo.
While my system, running closed loop as required by NJ law, would have slightly higher efficiency if it was run open loop (all other conditions being equal) I wonder if that would be the case if it were pumping water from hundreds of feet below the grown and dumping it in a dry well near the surface. This approach would draw a lot more power ($$$) to move the water but would not have any affect on the temperature of the aquifer located hundreds of feet below the surface. That's why the efficiency is higher, for example, my closed loop goes into the upper 60s, when the A/C is running hard, while the ground water mostly likely is in the low 50s. Given even a closed loop system is dumping heat (in a/c mode) into the aquifer, maybe more so than an open loop dumping water near the surface, I can say if the drinking water temperature of my well is going up, I don't notice it.
I have someone coming out o my house this weekend to measure floor sq ft, window and door sq ft, insulation, etc... they will take all the info gathered, input into a standard program that will determine the most efficient layout of system. They told me that a starting price would be 22k - 25k. I believe I have enough land to do a horizontal loop. I have access to an excavator so I will dig the trenches myself. I have a friend in HVAC that will help with duct materials and installation. Those 2 components of the job are quite pricy so I hope to save a lot. Depending on the make, I have found 3 - 4 ton heat xchange units to be around 5k and up.
I have 2400 sq ft home with an oil fired tankless system and forced hot water base board heat only 7 years old. Anybody want to buy it? I'm convinced that this is the way to go!
Oh Yeah, the first quote I recieved from a local company was between 50K - 80K for a standard 2000sq ft home, I laughed and said thanks but no thanks but they are out there.
Good luck!
Brett
I have 2400 sq ft home with an oil fired tankless system and forced hot water base board heat only 7 years old. Anybody want to buy it? I'm convinced that this is the way to go!
Oh Yeah, the first quote I recieved from a local company was between 50K - 80K for a standard 2000sq ft home, I laughed and said thanks but no thanks but they are out there.
Good luck!
Brett
Check with your local Waterfurnace dealer, I've had very good service from that brand. I have a 15 year old Premier AT Series, two speed, their best model back then as I remember. I have 2,000 sf in central/north NJ, so you'd need something bigger than I have I'd guess. Mine is the smallest offered in this Series back then, they offered two larger models.
Here is the reply from the geothermal company regarding using the open loop, standing column design over a closed loop of either vertical or horizonal style;
Yes, the open loop standing column is more efficient. You have a well that can be possibly drilled deeper, replace the pump and offset for a lot less money than a closed loop system. The manufacturer recommends a hole 175'long x 3'wide x by 6'-8'deep per ton for horizontal loops; or, approx. 1,000' vertical bored hole(s) filled with a special grout.
Hopefully this helps.
staff
Yes, the open loop standing column is more efficient. You have a well that can be possibly drilled deeper, replace the pump and offset for a lot less money than a closed loop system. The manufacturer recommends a hole 175'long x 3'wide x by 6'-8'deep per ton for horizontal loops; or, approx. 1,000' vertical bored hole(s) filled with a special grout.
Hopefully this helps.
staff
Methinks they are confusing "efficient" with "cost effective". I believe you will burn up more pump HP with an open loop, but the installation will be cheaper.
Chris
Chris
I still have the "computer" run on my design, and it shows, as stated, I have two 500' vertical loops, e.g., 1000' and I have a 4 ton unit. The vertical loop is filled with a "special" grout... not sure about the "special" part, but grout in any case.
I will have to check to get the numbers, but I can say the two pumps I have to circulate water in the loop use only a small percentage of the power needed to heat/cool. These pumps use much less power than does my drinking water well pump which is at 125'.
I will have to check to get the numbers, but I can say the two pumps I have to circulate water in the loop use only a small percentage of the power needed to heat/cool. These pumps use much less power than does my drinking water well pump which is at 125'.
Guys, there are only two types of GSHP systems as far as the well goes. They are open loop or "pump & dump" and closed loop.
An open loop design uses water pumped from a regular water well, through a heat exchanger and then "dumped" into a pond or some other disposal method. The water is not put back into the water table. This method is much less expensive to do but has higher ongoing costs due to the hours of run time accumulated on the well pump motor, usually 1/2-1HP.
A closed loop system is just that. You have a "well" which is the equivalent of the shell in a shell and tube type heat exchanger and the closed loop which is the "tube" side of the aforementioned device. The system fluid (usually methanol or glycol based) is contained in the closed loop and is never in direct contact with the ground water. The system fluid picks up or sheds heat through the wall of the tubing which is in continuous contact with the ground water.
Go to the ClimateMaster website for a good visual explanation of the technology I have attempted to describe.
http://www.climatemaster.com/
Now. If you want the ultimate in efficiency AND comfort, connect said heat pump to a water to water HX driving a low temp radiant floor or wall system. Sit back in the easy chair and say Aaahhhhhhhhhhh. Throw in a solar panel system for DHW heating and thumb your nose at the utility company.
An open loop design uses water pumped from a regular water well, through a heat exchanger and then "dumped" into a pond or some other disposal method. The water is not put back into the water table. This method is much less expensive to do but has higher ongoing costs due to the hours of run time accumulated on the well pump motor, usually 1/2-1HP.
A closed loop system is just that. You have a "well" which is the equivalent of the shell in a shell and tube type heat exchanger and the closed loop which is the "tube" side of the aforementioned device. The system fluid (usually methanol or glycol based) is contained in the closed loop and is never in direct contact with the ground water. The system fluid picks up or sheds heat through the wall of the tubing which is in continuous contact with the ground water.
Go to the ClimateMaster website for a good visual explanation of the technology I have attempted to describe.
http://www.climatemaster.com/
Now. If you want the ultimate in efficiency AND comfort, connect said heat pump to a water to water HX driving a low temp radiant floor or wall system. Sit back in the easy chair and say Aaahhhhhhhhhhh. Throw in a solar panel system for DHW heating and thumb your nose at the utility company.
Heaterman: There is a third type that I have never seen reference to anywhere but personal experience and here from bigblue. They are returning the water to the well from which it is pumped. It's not in any textbooks that I can find, but is apparently happening. I'm not sure it's 100% kosher as I always thought reinjecting anything back into a well was frowned on by the code police. The business is still in its infancy and apparently there are people that are thinking outside the box. I have a friend with such a system with over a decade of good results that I really can't argue with.
I have been considering the radiant heat pump idea, but haven't seen anybody building anything like this. I thought about building my own, but the to-do list is long enough already...
Chris
I have been considering the radiant heat pump idea, but haven't seen anybody building anything like this. I thought about building my own, but the to-do list is long enough already...
Chris
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