Getting electrical into zero clearance fireplace

[kiva822]

Greetings,

We have an old 80's zero clearance that has an old insert in it. We are replacing the insert with a Kozy Heat Chaska 29. Thing is, previous insert installer didn't put electrical into the back of the fireplace. The fireplace and faux chimney are on an exterior wall.

When the installers came to inspect, I asked where to put the electrical and they said back right of the fireplace. This is where the bad starts.

First, the person putting in the electrical hacked the chit out of the ZC fireplace trying to get to it from the outside. Ya, I can get to the outlet he installed now, but it's all mucked up with a giant hole in the side of the layers of the ZC. This can't be right.

So, questions..

(1) with a gas insert, can the integrity of the ZC fireplace be compromised? I assume there isn't a ton of heat back there, but it seems a bad idea.
(2) what about an outlet vs. hard wire of the unit? It seems weird to be told by the installers to just put an outlet back there. It would seem hard wiring / conduit would make more sense.

Anyway, please let me know how hosed I am.

EDIT: I did talk to a neighbor who had the same unit installed and he said his electrical installer did the same thing. However, that doesn't mean it's right as it wasn't an electrician either...

 

[DAKSY]

Can you post pix of what they left you with?

 

[bholler]

Greetings,

We have an old 80's zero clearance that has an old insert in it. We are replacing the insert with a Kozy Heat Chaska 29. Thing is, previous insert installer didn't put electrical into the back of the fireplace. The fireplace and faux chimney are on an exterior wall.

When the installers came to inspect, I asked where to put the electrical and they said back right of the fireplace. This is where the bad starts.

First, the person putting in the electrical hacked the chit out of the ZC fireplace trying to get to it from the outside. Ya, I can get to the outlet he installed now, but it's all mucked up with a giant hole in the side of the layers of the ZC. This can't be right.

So, questions..

(1) with a gas insert, can the integrity of the ZC fireplace be compromised? I assume there isn't a ton of heat back there, but it seems a bad idea.
(2) what about an outlet vs. hard wire of the unit? It seems weird to be told by the installers to just put an outlet back there. It would seem hard wiring / conduit would make more sense.

Anyway, please let me know how hosed I am.

EDIT: I did talk to a neighbor who had the same unit installed and he said his electrical installer did the same thing. However, that doesn't mean it's right as it wasn't an electrician either...

No the integrity of the zc cannot be compromised

 

[Millbilly]

No the integrity of the zc cannot be compromised

Then how do you get electrify into it? I thought there were allowable changes to be made... Just curious I service but don't install these.

 

[bholler]

Then how do you get electrify into it? I thought there were allowable changes to be made... Just curious I service but don't install these.

In most cases you are not allowed to put any insert in a zc fireplace at all. What is allowed is usually spelled out very well in the fireplace manual. Most allow for vented gas logs but nothing else

 

[kiva822]

HI Folks,

That is really interesting. Every stove shop I've visited talked about putting the insert right into the ZC.

Here's what they left me with:

The funny thing is I called my neighbor who had the same unit installed in his ZC (same original home builder from 1979) and asked him how he got electrical in. His wife said, "with a giant hole in the side of the fireplace. I could have used a nail file and my teeth and done better." The hearth company installed their unit no problem. That, of course, doesn't mean it's correct. They used a different installer for their electrical.

I have since read in the Chaska manual that the ZC cannot be modified. I wonder if that policy could exist as a means of liability reduction so that nobody decides later, "hey, let's burn wood in here again" and then sues everybody.

Since the flue holds the 2 feeds for fresh air and exhaust, why not drill in the side of that, send conduit down the flue and mount it in the back? I know that's still a modification thought...

If the heat is contained within the insert...yes, it looks ridiculous, but does it really matter, function-wise?

I did just see a YouTube video where this company drilled out the whole bottom of the ZC! Again, doesn't mean it's right...but, damn!

I'm so done with home improvement stuff....getting fried (long story).

 

[Millbilly]

HI Folks,

That is really interesting. Every stove shop I've visited talked about putting the insert right into the ZC.

Here's what they left me with:

View attachment 273641
The funny thing is I called my neighbor who had the same unit installed in his ZC (same original home builder from 1979) and asked him how he got electrical in. His wife said, "with a giant hole in the side of the fireplace. I could have used a nail file and my teeth and done better." The hearth company installed their unit no problem. That, of course, doesn't mean it's correct. They used a different installer for their electrical.

I have since read in the Chaska manual that the ZC cannot be modified. I wonder if that policy could exist as a means of liability so that nobody decides later, "hey, let's burn wood in here again" and then sues everybody.

Since the flue holds the 2 feeds for fresh air and exhaust, why not drill in the side of that, send conduit down the flue and mount it in the back? I know that's still a modification...however, if the heat is contained within the insert...yes, it looks ridiculous, but does it really matter, function-wise?

I'm so done with home improvement stuff....getting fried (long story).

Ouch

 

[Millbilly]

In most cases you are not allowed to put any insert in a zc fireplace at all. What is allowed is usually spelled out very well in the fireplace manual. Most allow for vented gas logs but nothing else

I see smaller inserts such as regency bvents in zc fireplaces all the time. Inspected and all.

 

[kiva822]

I know, eh? Something else....

Ouch

 

[kiva822]

I see smaller inserts such as regency bvents in zc fireplaces all the time. Inspected and all.

any idea how they got the electrical in there?

 

[Millbilly]

any idea how they got the electrical in there?

Yes. Much smaller hole. Wire is pulled into the fireplace. And outlet is in the back inside the fireplace. Any electrician that's ever wired a gas fireplace insert would know that.

 

[bholler]

I see smaller inserts such as regency bvents in zc fireplaces all the time. Inspected and all.

That doesn't mean it is allowed by the fireplace manufacturer. And if they don't allow it it can't meet code. The only ones that I know of that allow inserts are newer hht zero clearance fireplaces. Mainly heatilator

 

[bholler]

HI Folks,

That is really interesting. Every stove shop I've visited talked about putting the insert right into the ZC.

Here's what they left me with:

View attachment 273641
The funny thing is I called my neighbor who had the same unit installed in his ZC (same original home builder from 1979) and asked him how he got electrical in. His wife said, "with a giant hole in the side of the fireplace. I could have used a nail file and my teeth and done better." The hearth company installed their unit no problem. That, of course, doesn't mean it's correct. They used a different installer for their electrical.

I have since read in the Chaska manual that the ZC cannot be modified. I wonder if that policy could exist as a means of liability reduction so that nobody decides later, "hey, let's burn wood in here again" and then sues everybody.

Since the flue holds the 2 feeds for fresh air and exhaust, why not drill in the side of that, send conduit down the flue and mount it in the back? I know that's still a modification thought...

If the heat is contained within the insert...yes, it looks ridiculous, but does it really matter, function-wise?

I did just see a YouTube video where this company drilled out the whole bottom of the ZC! Again, doesn't mean it's right...but, damn!

I'm so done with home improvement stuff....getting fried (long story).

That unit is now trash who ever cut it up like that owes you a new fireplace. Do you happen to know the make and model of the fireplace? It should be on a tag somewhere inside the front edge

 

[Millbilly]

That doesn't mean it is allowed by the fireplace manufacturer. And if they don't allow it it can't meet code. The only ones that I know of that allow inserts are newer hht zero clearance fireplaces. Mainly heatilator

I disagree with your interpretation of product listings. Here is the documentation from the insert manufacturer stating the insert is tested and listed for the manufactured fireplace, not visa versa. And they spell out how to bring your gas in. Agreed the electrician botched that badly.

 

[kiva822]

ya, clearly should have just drilled a hole, ran conduit/wire even an escutcheon and make it look nice. Ugh.

 

[bholler]

I disagree with your interpretation of product listings. Here is the documentation from the insert manufacturer stating the insert is tested and listed for the manufactured fireplace, not visa versa. And they spell out how to bring your gas in. Agreed the electrician botched that badly.

But one ul listed appliance cannot over ride the instructions of another. That simply is not allowed. Code states all listed appliances must be installed according to their listing requirements. Not just the ones you feel like following. This is backed up by every applicable professional training or certification organization.

 

[bholler]

I disagree with your interpretation of product listings. Here is the documentation from the insert manufacturer stating the insert is tested and listed for the manufactured fireplace, not visa versa. And they spell out how to bring your gas in. Agreed the electrician botched that badly.

It also says the insert can be installed in any approved factory built fireplace. Does the manual list the fireplaces that are approved?

 

[Millbilly]

It also says the insert can be installed in any approved factory built fireplace. Does the manual list the fireplaces that are approved?

This is a very common installation. Paging Daksy.

 

[bholler]

This is a very common installation. Paging Daksy.

And one that if done in a fireplace which says no inserts are allowed is completely against code. Again one manufacturer cannot give you permission to modify and ignore another manufacturers instructions.

Installers ignore lots of requirements all the time that doesn't make it right. And it doesn't mean that insurance will ignore a code violation just because everyone does it. Or the inspector missed it.

 

[bholler]

None of this debate matters anyway the fireplace in question has been butchered and is no longer useable for anything.

 

[kiva822]

dumb question: assuming for a second that it is allowed to have an insert into it...couldn't one patch it up with sheet metal, etc. and carry on?

I mean, how much heat is actually outside the insert unit? Isn't the heat contained within that new unit?

 

[bholler]

dumb question: assuming for a second that it is allowed to have an insert into it...couldn't one patch it up with sheet metal, etc. and carry on?

I mean, how much heat is actually outside the insert unit? Isn't the heat contained within that new unit?

Nope not by code. In actuality it would probably be safe but if anything ever happens with it that would be a big red flag for insurance.