Going to HS Mansfield 8011 from Woodstock Ideal Steel Hybrid - upgrade or not?

[deadtvs]

Hello. Occasional lurker and rare poster here, checking in on a potential stove switch.

So my house, purchased 5 years ago, came with a Woodstock Ideal Steel Hybrid 210 in the live-in basement. I like the stove, but can't say I love it. My main issues are 1) it's fairly hard to start, 2) smokes a lot when door is open, 3) generates a bit more creosote build-up than I'd like, 4) aesthetics - not terrible, but not exactly beautiful. I've burned a variety of woods - mostly soft (I live in CO, hardwood is a premium). I've actually settled on aspen as my favorite for this stove - it starts easy, burns relatively hot, and much cleaner than the firs and pines (and even some hardwood) I'd been using. Yes I go through a lot of wood, but it's easy to come by aspen. The switch to aspen has helped with the creosote somewhat. I have not been able to solve the smoking issue, even with careful use (just cracking the door for 15-30 seconds to get a good draft going, then slowly opening) it just insists on puffing out a good bit of smoke almost every time I open the door. The "pro" I've had up a couple times has verified the chimney should be more than adequate - it's at least 25', and a couple feet below the ridge elevation. On the plus side, the stove puts out a lot of heat and burns a good 8-10 hours on a full load. It also seems well-built and has been low maintenance, other than frequent chimney cleaning.

Recently a used Hearthstone Mansfield 8011 came up for sale at a really good price. It's an older build, from 2001. From what I can tell, it's fairly comparable specs-wise to my WS, though obviously it's full cast+stone vs the steel and token stone side pieces on the Ideal. The Mansfield claims up to 80K BTU/Hr, whereas the Ideal only claims 60K. However the SF heated is only a bit less, 2200 vs 2500. The Mansfield is certainly better looking! On the other hand, it seems Woodstock is better respected for build quality/reliability than Hearthstone - is that the general consensus?

So finally getting to my question - does the brain trust think I would be happier with the Mansfield than my Ideal Steel, or is this a case of "the grass is always greener" and I should leave well enough alone? Any chance someone out there has experience with both stoves?

 

[brenndatomu]

Sounds more like a chimney problem to me. What's your elevation there?
The chimney is the engine that powers the stove...switching stoves makes no sense unless you make sure the engine doesn't have a problem...and your local chimney guy may or may not know what he's talking about...too many don't.
Tell us about the chimney/stove pipe...does the stove pipe go straight up from the stove, or out through the wall and then 90* up. Is this a stainless-steel chimney or masonry? Have any pics of your setup?
Sounds like this is an older IS...very well may be time for a new cat...or at least some maintenance on it.
I think swapping out for the HS would be a step or two down from the IS.
It's more than likely that the HS would not make any more heat than the IS...many companies overate the stove output....but I'd say the IS is underrated if anything.

 

[begreen]

Agreed. This may not be a stove issue, but more like a draft problem. We need a more detailed description of the flue system.

 

[deadtvs]

Sounds more like a chimney problem to me. What's your elevation there?
The chimney is the engine that powers the stove...switching stoves makes no sense unless you make sure the engine doesn't have a problem...and your local chimney guy may or may not know what he's talking about...too many don't.
Tell us about the chimney/stove pipe...does the stove pipe go straight up from the stove, or out through the wall and then 90* up. Is this a stainless-steel chimney or masonry? Have any pics of your setup?
Sounds like this is an older IS...very well may be time for a new cat...or at least some maintenance on it.
I think swapping out for the HS would be a step or two down from the IS.
It's more than likely that the HS would not make any more heat than the IS...many companies overate the stove output....but I'd say the IS is underrated if anything.

Thanks! I agree it seems like a chimney issue, but as I said, two different stove company guys have said it's OK. The second one initially thought the math was wrong, but after he worked through it, said it was ok. I'll attach pics of the setup. It's all 6" double or triple wall. It's straight up 4.5', 90* elbow through the wall about 2.5', then straight up outside to the cap - another 16 or 17'. So maybe 23' vertical, 3.5' horizontal. I'm at 8400' in the San Juan Mountains (Colorado).

I did a deep clean last summer, and although the cat looks ok and seems to still fire ok, I did order one from WS. The stove is 10 years old and I'm pretty sure the cat is original, so it's definitely time. (That said, the house was an STR with not a lot of use for the first 5 years, FWIW.) Unfortunately they're indefinitely back-ordered! From other threads regarding this part, it seems like it can take from a few weeks to a few months to get one.

I agree with the thought the Ideal is underrated. My house is 3800 SF, and of course I don't expect the stove to heat 100%, but I'd say it's over 50%. On many winter days, the heat only comes on a couple times in the AM, then stays off the rest of the day - there' s a lot of passive solar, so that of course helps as well. The first floor (I said basement earlier, that's not correct - for some reason I think of it as a basement though) where stove is is less than 1500SF, but heat goes up the open staircase to the great room (28'x44') above fairly well. I included a pic of the house overall so you can kinda get the layout. And as I said, if I fill it at night, it will last through till morning pretty well - 8-10 hours, even burning aspen.

You're probably right about the HS being a downgrade, but I sure do like the looks! If I could just get the smoke issue resolved, I'd be pretty happy with the Ideal.

 

[begreen]

The two 90º turns in the flue are effectively robbing about 4-5' of chimney height as it pertains to draft. This makes it closer to a 19-20' system. Then add the very high altitude requirement (see chart) plus a cold chimney and I think that explains the draft issue. Adding 3 ft of chimney (with a brace at 5' above the roof) will help. Another improvement can be made by softening the interior 90º by switching to a pair of 45º elbows and an offset.

 

[deadtvs]

The two 90º turns in the flue are effectively robbing about 4-5' of chimney height as it pertains to draft. This makes it closer to a 19-20' system. Then add the very high altitude requirement (see chart) plus a cold chimney and I think that explains the draft issue. Adding 3 ft of chimney (with a brace at 5' above the roof) will help. Another improvement can be made by softening the interior 90º by switching to a pair of 45º elbows and an offset.

View attachment 345694

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Thanks, that's very helpful! I'm a little reluctant to add that 3', as it would put the cap at or above the roof peak, and we get some screaming winds here. I'm also guesstimating that last section at about 7', which would put the overall at 23' - I might be off +/- a foot. I do like the idea of 2x45° angles however. Maybe the combination of that and a 2' add to the upper section? And thanks for the chart. I knew altitude played a roll in chimney height, but had no idea it was so substantial! Probably won't do anything until late spring at the earliest, but in any case, I think you both have talked me out of the Hearthstone!

 

[brenndatomu]

Looking at those pics I'd guess that chimney to be closer to 20-21"...which between those 90's and the elevation, I do think that is your main issue...like Begreen said, adding some height (with proper bracing) and eliminating those 90's should make a nice improvement for you.
Also, use binoculars to keep an eye on that bird screen on the cap...its not too uncommon for those to ice/creosote closed when its really cold...and that makes for some really poor chimney draft! I just had to take the screen off of the chimney cap over at my sisters house last week...about 80-90% plugged, she had been complaining that it wasn't keeping up with this cold snap we've had...well that's why!

 

[begreen]

I do like the idea of 2x45° angles however. Maybe the combination of that and a 2' add to the upper section?

Every little bit helps.

Also, is there 2" clearance from any combustible where the chimney pipe passes through the soffit? It looks tight there, but that could just be the camera angle.