Gooseriders Defiant-Encore rebuild

[Gooserider]

As many folks might know, I got the old 1988 Defiant-Encore that Elk pulled out of one of the donor stove recipients homes. I'm in the process of rebuilding it, and when done will replace my main smoke dragon that I've been using, and hopefully will then see all the benefits of having a cleaner burning stove.

The main smoke dragon will get moved into the basement, where it will live in semi-retirement - we very seldom use the basement stove, as we mostly just have stuff stored down there, and unless we plan to be doing a significant amount of work that has us down there for a while it isn't worth firing up.

The stove that was in the basement will move outside, where it may get turned into a smoker, or some other form of "yard sculpture"

Elk brought the stove up during the Hearth Party, and we did some serious dismantling on it there, and I've been continuing to pull it apart since. This stove has had a rough life, and I had a lot of problems with stuck bolts, etc. It has been seriously over fired, as the previous owner had allowed the cat to get clogged up, and then ran it in "bypass" mode all the time. In addition the Primary air thermostatic control was broken, and the primary air flap was jammed open with an old pipe clamp.

I've found lots of internal damaged parts, which Elk knows about, and it appears the refractory package may be in worse shape than we thought initially.

Today I think I've finally gotten everything apart that needs to come apart, and am ready to start wire-wheeling and painting the parts, except for ONE big problem...

I had a bunch of stuck bolts, but I was able to get most of them out without excessive damage except for one... :coolsmile:

The bolt that holds the top to the front door frame (one of three that holds the top on) was severely stuck. Even after days of soaking with PB Blaster it still wouldn't move. :coolhmm:

I finally drilled the head off the bolt to get the top off, after having stripped out the phillips recess with an impact driver. :coolmad:

Today I tackled the bolt stub - Broke the drillout tool that I'd been using on the other bolts successfully. Drilled it out to 3/16" and attempted to retap the hole. My cheap HF tap didn't want to cut, so I went in and got one of my better taps, which BROKE in the hole - below flush! :snake:

I got the Oxy-Acetyline torch and was able to melt / burn through the tap and open the hole up a little bit. There wasn't enough thickness there to do a 1/4" thread, and the HF tap wouldn't start, so I wanted to go to the next oversize, but I can't get the COBALT drill to cut! I'm not sure if VC is using really tough cast iron, or if maybe there is still a bit of the tap left in the hole. Not sure I want to put the torch in the hole again though.

Any ideas? Right now I'm starting to wonder about taking the thing to a machine shop and having them put in a helicoil - anyone have a better idea?

Ball park on what a new painted front for that stove would cost? I don't want to spend more money on fixing this one than a new top would cost...

Gooserider

 

[BrotherBart]

Don't know about VC but I bought a new painted cast front for a Jotul F3 CB and it cost me $165 plus freight.

Resurrecting that old stove may be a feel good thing but it sure looks like it is going to cost more, even excluding your labor, than a nice new stove would cost. You know how those "Just one more part." and "Well, as long as I am here." projects go.

 

[karl]

You can helicoils yourself. Of course to do one you pretty much tap it anyway. Then screw the helicoil in and break the little tip of of it.

 

[Gooserider]

You can helicoils yourself. Of course to do one you pretty much tap it anyway. Then screw the helicoil in and break the little tip of of it.

Agreed, you can, but the trouble is it can cost more for the kit to do the helicoil than it does to have one done. If you are doing a lot of them the kit pays for itself, but it's a bit harder to justify if you only have one or two holes that need it, especially since you have to buy another complete kit for each size of bolt.

Gooserider

 

[karl]

I didn't think of that Goose. Since, I've been working on my own stuff for years I have the kit. I bought it right after I got my impact wrench. ) I know it's hindsite now, but PB blaster is great stuff. A torch is even better. Heat up the nut or if it's a bolt heat up what ever the bolt is in. This will cause some expansion and you get about anything out.

 

[BrotherBart]

Take a look at the auto parts stores Goose. It has been four our five years but they had started carrying the one-shot kits that you could use for engine blocks.

 

[KeithO]

Goosrider: The iron has beeen subjected to multiple heating cycles and particularly when combined with soot (carbon), one has perfect conditions for case hardening. Normally the rate of cooling on a stove is pretty high (its not like anealing at least) so cast iron has the tendency to get pretty hard from service.

Theoretically, one could aneal the area by heating the whole thing in a furnace to a cherry red and then turning off the oven and letting it cool down passively (as slow as you can get it). Whether you have the facilities and whether it is feasible depends greatly on the cost of the alternatives. I had 2 siezed studs (with the external thread rusted away) in the exhaust manifold of my Toyota RV and I messed with it for 2 days before throwing in the towel and buying a new replacement for $60....

 

[GVA]

But cast iron is more ferrous than that harder than he(( tap..... I think the OA may bave blown away some of the cast but leaving a chunk of the tap in there.....IE: the cast will oxidize with the OA far far far faster than the tap.

Best advice....... Use the right size drill before tapping.... 1/4-20 is a #7 or in a pinch a 13/64" will work but not a 3/16" (without stressing that tap)
As far as Cobalt..... It really means nothing...... now if you tried Carbide that would be a different story that may break through the tap...

Last advice since you have OA blow the bolt hole open a bit more and then drill it out for a 5/16-18 (F drill) or worst case 3/8-16 (5/16 drill).

If you need a helicoil let me know I could lend you a kit....

 

[Gooserider]

But cast iron is more ferrous than that harder than he(( tap..... I think the OA may bave blown away some of the cast but leaving a chunk of the tap in there.....IE: the cast will oxidize with the OA far far far faster than the tap.

Best advice....... Use the right size drill before tapping.... 1/4-20 is a #7 or in a pinch a 13/64" will work but not a 3/16" (without stressing that tap)
As far as Cobalt..... It really means nothing...... now if you tried Carbide that would be a different story that may break through the tap...

Last advice since you have OA blow the bolt hole open a bit more and then drill it out for a 5/16-18 (F drill) or worst case 3/8-16 (5/16 drill).

If you need a helicoil let me know I could lend you a kit....

That sounds great - looks like I'm not going to be able to do much with it until Monday, but I will give it another shot with the torch and try a different drill on it then. (along with trying to deal with the Bee Tree I just found...)

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

Goose Before you o nits allow me to confirm with Vc they will send the original parts list I gave them. If not then you are wasting your time Many here don't want to hear my brutal honesty, but ...... I have not heard from the boss man from VC and I do not want to get your hopes up too high.VC has tken a shoft in manufacturingh that all stoves are gasketed seams
If they do comr up with the parts, then they did so upon our request. What I' elling you is not to get your hopes up too high. When were were there, I wish I took the cat encore and the everburn one. One of the two would be sitting on your hearth. In the next few days I will talk to the powers that be and discuss options. We may have to make another trip up there


Goose I realize you did nit notice, but there were casting molds at the factry that did not match current Vc productions. I questioned these molds and confirmed that they are casting all casting parts for Harman. I also notice a familiarity with Englander, they are also casting all cadt iron parts for engl ander. Corie has admitted that their castings are supperior to the imported ones they received in the past. DaLe has comfirmed my other supissions;. And there are other manufactures that they supply cast iron parts for.

when we were there they were working on the molds and models for the new line of inserts comming out this fall.. Thats what we viewed on the computers using Auto cad

 

[Gooserider]

After further discussions with Elk, it looks like we are going to be abandoning efforts to rebuild the old Defiant-Encore - it seems to be in worse shape internally than we originally thought, and it appears that we are going to have a harder time getting parts for it than originally anticipated. Among other things the refractory package looked OK at first, but when we started to take things apart for the rebuild, the package broke apart in several places - that part alone is enough to make rebuilding the stove not feasible from an economic standpoint.

Elk has located a different stove that will work and is in much better condition, but has to be purchased - after talking it over with the girlfriend, we are going to purchase that stove and sell off the old stove as parts (we hope) to partly defray the costs of the new stove.

Anyone interested, please PM me for a list of what's available.

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

Asseng a little blame here the ortiginal owner admitted he fired it hard the last two years because he knew it was going to be replaced.

VC really does not have interest suppling parts for 20 year old stoves. When I statred taking it apart things went well then goose accidently bumped the refractory package and that really was the death of the stove money wise. It had looked good but as we removed parts that supported it it became fragile and got bumped that was e really the end of the game

The parts we need are not available off the shelf VC would have to Cast them and this is the problem They can't find the time now to set up a liminted castings for us

So I looking at the Want advertiser and there is an Encore in My town for sale $500 and it is the latest model run 12 years newer than gooses's rebuild project.
It looked so good I bought it on the spot I figured This was the best ecomomic solution for goose Or if goose proceeded I offered it to Cath I felt it would be the best solution for her

a lot better tha yard sale scandia crap or crap Tiawan junk. If neither wanted it I could do a couple gaskets and sell it in a month for $1000 or use it in the donnor program

Goose agreed this was the best way for him cutting his wood size to it an Encore

 

[Corie]

Exactly how bad is the stove? Is in completely unrebuildable? Or just not economically feasible for you?

 

[elkimmeg]

The paln was VC was donating the parts for the rebuild That was a month back, The parts are no lomger on the shelves and would have to be recast

Something VC is moving forward from suppling 20 year old parts the new non cat stoves are different castings and gasket seams is the directions they are moving forward to.

Few and fewer stoves will be refractory cement seams so the need to make those parts are not a high priority.

Gooses's stove needed both the upper and lower fire backs and the bottom grate plus the right side air dam plate which I had the replacement.
About the only interior part ok was the left side air dam plate. All gaskets needed replacing including the ones on the air dam plates the damper or upper fire babk frame was warped and did not seal the promary air control cabling is broken. In the process the dog house/ refractory package got damaged, and the cat is the original intact but 20 years old ,Both andirons melted off and I broke a leg moving it. My fault it slipped unloading it from my truck there are 4 to 6 bolts that broke off and will need drilling out and re tapping in cast iron.

The exterior parts and the doors are in good shape but moisture got at it in my truck the day before delivery to Goose and surface rust occured, so it needs re painting.

Once the dog house got damaged The project was over if VC does not come up with the original parts list the project is dead From a money stand point if purchasing the parts now with a new CCat combustor one is looking at $750 possibly more At this point the project is not worth doing. Initially it looked like a prime canidate for rebuilding but once I got the ash removed I started noticing more damage that first thought. Still do able if VC donated the parts.

Thursday night I viewed tha Want Aadvertiser and noticed An Encore listed for $500 in my town .The pluses is this Encore is within the latest 2550 model run All interior plates are in tact
little signs of overfiring and the Cat is a year or 2 old Not a mark on the stove and all it needs is some gasketing I doubt the refractory seams need any attention. Included is the griddle gasket kit and even the door daskets look ok I haven not looked at the lower ask door gasket which may or may not need replacing if I adjust the latch I can't say now it the door glass
inserts need gasketing but that would be the extent of it. Before I bring it up to goose's I would blow it out with the compressor and blow gun and shop vac it .

If I did not offer it to goose and did the gasketing I could have flipped the stove and doubled my money. But I felt partly responsible for Goose's position and offered it to him knowing it made sense and the best possible solution.. The other offer was to Cath should goose not want it, or use it as a donor program stove, which in reality to Goose it is...
Goose will be eliminating most all headaches and be burning soon enough and much cleaner and more effecient ,EPA certified and will be reporting how it worked out. The exterior is so good it does not even need any paint. It should run as good as a new stove.

Corie if you find another one that needs some parts let us know like broken glass front doors or cracked top or back needs a leg

 

[Gooserider]

Exactly how bad is the stove? Is in completely unrebuildable? Or just not economically feasible for you?

Essentially it's a question of economic feasibility, coupled with parts availability - I have gotten everything dismantled at this point except for the rear exterior panel with the refractory package inside it. I haven't really touched that because of the delicate nature of the package, but there are several visible cracks and breaks in the package before even trying to take that apart, and AFAIK there is no kind of repair material that can be used to glue the package back together.

I'm in the process of uploading a bunch of photos that I've taken to Photobucket - This album They will show what I've got taken apart, or most of it.

I have gotten all the screws out except for the one in the top center of the front door frame casting that I mentioned earlier so that shouldn't be a problem otherwise.

In a way I'm quite dissapointed not to finish the rebuild, as there is something extra satisfying in burning a stove that you personally built up, but realistically there comes a time to admit that it's time to give it up.

BTW, I probably did finish doing in the refractory package by bumping it at the party - we were trying to get a bolt out and I was attempting to guide the wrench onto it by reaching in through the vent outlet. The refractory package was sitting under the opening protected only by a sheet metal heatshield that flexed and cracked the top of the package when I bumped it - I hadn't realized how little protection it gave the package. While this was probably the final straw for the package, I suspect that it was not the only damage to it as I don't think I caused some of the other damage to it that I saw.

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

Goose I spoke to Vc they told me they had most of the parts ready I told them to hold off and that the only part we need is the 6" flue collar
which they are sending me.

They told me they will be holding off their new insert line to the Hapa show in march, where they will unvail it. They also told me early sales look encouraging
and glad they did not re-enter the pellet stove market.

I know rebuilding was a self satisfing task, but I think a better decision was made. Plus having it ready when the season begins

Well the rain stopped back to work got to mix some concrete and pour some fottings.

 

[Gooserider]

Goose I spoke to Vc they told me they had most of the parts ready I told them to hold off and that the only part we need is the 6" flue collar
which they are sending me.

They told me they will be holding off their new insert line to the Hapa show in march, where they will unvail it. They also told me early sales look encouraging
and glad they did not re-enter the pellet stove market.

I know rebuilding was a self satisfing task, but I think a better decision was made. Plus having it ready when the season begins

Well the rain stopped back to work got to mix some concrete and pour some fottings.

Well, if VC now has the parts and we can add a refractory package to the list, then this stove would still be rebuildable - I could put it together either for use as a donor stove, or to sell in order to make the money needed to pay for other expenses related to the donor program - i.e. pipes, firewall material, etc... Might even make enough off of it to get a couple of the Englanders when the big boxes do the closeouts next spring, and get it out of our immediate circle so it doesn't need to be something we'd need to support in the future.

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

Goose another posibility we have a member her out in the western part of out state the needs help If you can rebuild if I get the refractory package then I might offer the newer encore to her
I am also trying to work out an account with the Northeast distributor to get dealer pricing. The donor program still can function by help making installations, reducing cost to the end user.

Hey Jotul Brett Watson I would welcome any donations from your world class company. Tired of hearing about VC generosity, then time for you to step up to the plate.

 

[BrotherBart]

Hey Jotul Brett Watson I would welcome any donations from your world class company. Tired of hearing about VC generosity, then time for you to step up to the plate.

Not to mention some pipe and liner companies. Those donor stoves gotta breathe. Not many people that can't afford heat can afford pipe or liners.

 

[Gooserider]

Goose another posibility we have a member her out in the western part of out state the needs help If you can rebuild if I get the refractory package then I might offer the newer encore to her
I am also trying to work out an account with the Northeast distributor to get dealer pricing. The donor program still can function by help making installations, reducing cost to the end user.

Hey Jotul Brett Watson I would welcome any donations from your world class company. Tired of hearing about VC generosity, then time for you to step up to the plate.

Hmmm.... Maybe I'm lacking the proper spirit of generosity, but I have to admit I'd rather do it the other way around A newer stove is kind of preferable, even if I don't get to rebuild the new one, and I certainly wasn't looking forward to trying to service the cat where it would be on the 0028 given my setup - it is bad enough just getting into the pipe to clean it. With the "T" sitting in front of the cat plate, plus just reaching back behind the stove, it would be a bear to get at...

I'm willing to put in the labor to use the 0028 as a donor, but I suspect that Mary-Anne would be happier if we put the newer stove on the hearth...

Gooserider