Grand Solar Minimum - Is a mini ice age upon us?

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Are you saying you feel like the global scientific community has fooled you with regard to global warming? I don't feel that way at all.
I see it as a means of control over you, me and various induesties - a means of potential regulation and needless taxation. I believe it's political science and nothing more. I see no problem in letting markets dictate the type and rate of fuel consumption, except in certain localities where smog is a problem.

When coal and fossil fuels become depleted, we'll switch to solar or nuclear for some applications, and the market will drive that change.

As technology progresses, we'll be able to explore the solar system more, discover additional fuel sources, and hopefully develope into a type 1 civilization. Earth will still be here, and we can be responsible with it; but I don't consider climate science to be science in the broader sense, as those envolved with it seek only to prove their hypothesis, even if it means altering data do so.
 
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I see it as a means of control over you, me and various induesties - a means of potential regulation and needless taxation. I believe it's political science and nothing more. I see no problem in letting markets dictate the type and rate of fuel consumption, except in certain localities where smog is a problem.

When coal and fossil fuels become depleted, we'll switch to solar or nuclear for some applications, and the market will drive that change.

As technology progresses, we'll be able to explore the solar system more, discover additional fuel sources, and hopefully develope into a type 1 civilization. Earth will still be here, and we can be responsible with it; but I don't consider climate science to be science in the broader sense, as those envolved with it seek only to prove their hypothesis, even if it means altering data do so.
So we should wait till other recources are gone to develop the alternatives? Why not work on them now so they are ready when we need them? And we can pollute as much as we want every where but where there is smog? How do you propose car companies do that? And how bad does the air have to be to require regulations? What if you live up wind of a smog area?

So your theory is dont worry about anything we will be able to find solutions to all of our problems in space. That sounds like a great plan.
 
Seems to me, we should focus on being as conservative with our resources as we can, and as clean in our collection/usage of them as we can, and learn how to live with a warmer or colder planet.
Changes will come and go, and we can spend time and energy arguing over who's right and who's wrong, or we can be good stewards of our planet and learn how to live on it while causing as little damage as possible.

I'm all for that but the definition of what it means to be a good steward of our planet changes depending upon what the best available science tells us is the result of various human activities. So it's important to understand what the results of our actions are so we can be good stewards. Fortunately, heating with wood is carbon neutral and affects our climate in the same way as if the wood was left to rot where it fell. So, in terms of global warming, wood heat is far superior to gas, oil, propane, etc. At least if you listen to what the best available science has determined.

Surprisingly, there are still people who have been fooled by people with a money agenda but who think it's actually the scientists who are fooling them. Because the science is good and has a very high level of confidence. The uncertainties are to how fast and how much the effect will be.
 
I see it as a means of control over you, me and various induesties - a means of potential regulation and needless taxation. I believe it's political science and nothing more. I see no problem in letting markets dictate the type and rate of fuel consumption, except in certain localities where smog is a problem.

The science of global climate has nothing to do with politics until the results are published and then those with a political agenda jump in with a vengeance. But if a scientific study took into account political leanings, it would be discredited by other scientists. It sounds like you don't have a very extensive scientific background.

Currently, fossil fuels are the most highly subsidized industry in the world. From oil exploration tax credits to some of the lowest capital investment tax rates of any industry, oil is more heavily subsidized by taxpayers than alternative energies. So, I would be in favor of eliminating all oil subsidies and letting the market dictate.

When coal and fossil fuels become depleted, we'll switch to solar or nuclear for some applications, and the market will drive that change.

It's highly likely that market forces will cause the switch to mostly renewables long before coal and oil are even close to being depleted. That's due to the falling cost curve of technologies like solar, wind and rechargeable batteries. Costs are falling like a rock.

As technology progresses, we'll be able to explore the solar system more, discover additional fuel sources, and hopefully develope into a type 1 civilization. Earth will still be here, and we can be responsible with it; but I don't consider climate science to be science in the broader sense, as those envolved with it seek only to prove their hypothesis, even if it means altering data do so.

There is no evidence there has been any significant fudging of data to fake climate science. If there was, those studies would no longer be relied upon by the rest of the scientific community. You appear to have a very dim view of scientists, as if they are the trouble, not the solution.
 
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There is no evidence there has been any significant fudging of data to fake climate science.

"The hockey stick of adjustments since 1970 is due almost entirely to NOAA fabricating missing station data. In 2016, more than 42% of their monthly station data was missing, so they simply made it up. This is easy to identify because they mark fabricated temperatures with an “E” in their database."

[E denotes estimate]


Screen-Shot-2016-12-28-at-5.26.00-AM.gif

https://realclimatescience.com/2016/12/100-of-us-warming-is-due-to-noaa-data-tampering/
 
I see it as a means of control over you, me and various induesties - a means of potential regulation and needless taxation. I believe it's political science and nothing more. I see no problem in letting markets dictate the type and rate of fuel consumption, except in certain localities where smog is a problem.

When coal and fossil fuels become depleted, we'll switch to solar or nuclear for some applications, and the market will drive that change.

As technology progresses, we'll be able to explore the solar system more, discover additional fuel sources, and hopefully develope into a type 1 civilization. Earth will still be here, and we can be responsible with it; but I don't consider climate science to be science in the broader sense, as those envolved with it seek only to prove their hypothesis, even if it means altering data do so.

The market is already in mid-shift. This is why the big oil companies have wet their pants and started PR websites like climatefacts.org to prop up their short-term profits.

It's too bad- If only RJ Reynolds had been able to do that back when they were funding "doubt" about the "debate" whether cigarettes were great for your health or not, all the climate change deniers would currently be smoking themselves out of the gene pool, which would be good news for future generations on several levels.
 
"The hockey stick of adjustments since 1970 is due almost entirely to NOAA fabricating missing station data. In 2016, more than 42% of their monthly station data was missing, so they simply made it up. This is easy to identify because they mark fabricated temperatures with an “E” in their database."

[E denotes estimate]


View attachment 197968

https://realclimatescience.com/2016/12/100-of-us-warming-is-due-to-noaa-data-tampering/

I can't believe you go to realclimatescience.com for your "information".
 
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I'm all for that but the definition of what it means to be a good steward of our planet changes depending upon what the best available science tells us is the result of various human activities. So it's important to understand what the results of our actions are so we can be good stewards. Fortunately, heating with wood is carbon neutral and affects our climate in the same way as if the wood was left to rot where it fell. So, in terms of global warming, wood heat is far superior to gas, oil, propane, etc. At least if you listen to what the best available science has determined.

Surprisingly, there are still people who have been fooled by people with a money agenda but who think it's actually the scientists who are fooling them. Because the science is good and has a very high level of confidence. The uncertainties are to how fast and how much the effect will be.

Good points, but I'm referring more to the idea of global warming fact/fiction, or are we facing an ice age vs a warming planet. It becomes such a hard line in the sand for so many, that they are often willing to forget about the fact we all want/need clean air, clean soil and clean water and would rather spend effort trying to win the global warming argument than to work towards implementing policy that achieves those common goals.

Funny enough, the things it takes to achieve cleaner air, soil and water are often the very same things that will help achieve the goals those who worry about the climate would like to do.

Not to mention, I believe they help to improve our national security, energy security and lower the costs of our healthcare by improving our health.
 
It's too bad- If only RJ Reynolds had been able to do that back when they were funding "doubt" about the "debate" whether cigarettes were great for your health or not, all the climate change deniers would currently be smoking themselves out of the gene pool, which would be good news for future generations on several levels.

Wow... that's taking it a little far, ain't it? I was enjoying the debate from both sides, always enlightening and educational.

I particularly enjoy peakbagger and woodgeek's contributions on such threads, even though some might assume I'm typically on the other side of the proverbial fence.
 
The concept of waiting until running out of readily available fossil fuels to make the transition unfortunately isn't a good option. Even if no new reserves are located, just releasing the carbon from the current reserves will bump the CO2 levels where climate impact is catastrophic.
 
I think there is ample evidence that the climate has changed for as long as life has been on this rock. It would be foolish to believe that it won't happen in the future. So it's reasonable to believe it's changing now. Is it something to be worried about? Maybe, maybe not.

Global warming has been the focus of considerable debate. Let's say it is warming. What is the cause? I think if we establish that with certainty, we can decide if there is anything that we can do about it. Because if it turns out to be something like the sun, it won't matter how much money is thrown at the problem, we won't solve it.
 
I'm not grasping how burning wood is carbon neutral. Sure, burning wood amounts to the same emissions as letting it rot but if I cut down a tree in the forest it leaves an opening in the canopy that quite a few saplings compete to fill and eventually one or two will, choking out the rest.

Now the world has the carbon emissions from the tree that died prematurely (because I cut and burned it) and whatever took its place plus the ones that died trying .
 
Wow... that's taking it a little far, ain't it?

Maybe. Your great-grandchildren could answer that question for certain; nobody here can.

From where I'm standing, it looks like a large pool of people have been (once again) duped into standing for short term profits for huge companies instead of thr welfare of their kids- because the huge companies frame it as a confusing argument between political group A and political group B.

Same as the smoking "debate". Tell group A that group B is out to get them and oh yes by the way group B is against your patriotic lovely industry, and sit back and watch human nature do your work for you. Doesn't matter what groups you pick. :/
 
At one point we had 97% of the media telling us the election was going 98% one way and they turned out to be wrong so yes, can 97% of scientist influenced by Govt money carry the bosses orders. I guess its possible to have fake news scientists as well as reporters if there is an agenda involved.
 
I think the planet is always in a warming trend until an unless some event interrupts it.
Its not perfectly balanced EVER.
 
At one point we had 97% of the media telling us the election was going 98% one way and they turned out to be wrong so yes, can 97% of scientist influenced by Govt money carry the bosses orders. I guess its possible to have fake news scientists as well as reporters if there is an agenda involved.
Yes but all of the "scientific evidence" refuting human influence on climate change is funded by the energy companies. So we know their benefactors are heavily influenced against changing the status quo. So why do you trust that small percentage of scientists funded by heavily biased donors over the others some of which are funded by our govt part of which is biased?
 
I think the planet is always in a warming trend until an unless some event interrupts it.
Its not perfectly balanced EVER.
Yes the climate will always be changing but by no means always warming. But that does not mean we are not affecting it.
 
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At one point we had 97% of the media telling us the election was going 98% one way and they turned out to be wrong so yes, can 97% of scientist influenced by Govt money carry the bosses orders. I guess its possible to have fake news scientists as well as reporters if there is an agenda involved.
Media reporting is not science-based. There is a very big difference. Science doesn't care about opinion. It cares about truth and is self-correcting as it pursues the truth.
 
I'm not grasping how burning wood is carbon neutral. Sure, burning wood amounts to the same emissions as letting it rot but if I cut down a tree in the forest it leaves an opening in the canopy that quite a few saplings compete to fill and eventually one or two will, choking out the rest.

Now the world has the carbon emissions from the tree that died prematurely (because I cut and burned it) and whatever took its place plus the ones that died trying .

Wood burning is carbon neutral because trees absorb just as much carbon in life as they release after they die.

On the other hand, if we burn all the known fossil fuel reserves, the planets climate reverts back to an earlier time period and is uninhabitable. Planet earth is a wonderful place for humans precisely because so much carbon was sequestered (locked up) over billions of years. You don't want to undo that in 200 short years. The science on this is solid and, contrary to disinformation campaigns designed to maintain the dollar value of those reserves, even the uncertainties with the current science are miniscule in terms of the bigger picture. Specifically, these reserves took billions of years to sequester so much carbon, whether the climate takes 20 years, 100 years or even 200 years to completely transform, that is irrelevant. It is an unacceptable change for the human species (which is adapted to live in our current climate).

If it is impossible to consume all known petroleum reserves without creating a planet that is uninhabitable by humans, then what is the true economic worth of those reserves? Currently they are being valued at many billions of dollars and, when you buy stock in an oil major, those reserves (and the future income streams from those reserves) are what you are paying for. But if they can't be burned without eliminating most or all humans, than the bulk of those vast reserves are literally worthless and the oil companies annual statements that value those reserves at many billions of dollars are essentially fraudulent. By using disinformation to discredit that global warming is even an issue, the value of those reserves is supported. And oil has created a major part of the wealth that exists today. So, by believing and supporting those disinformation campaigns, and by electing people who say they aren't convinced GW is due to burning of fossil fuels, people are actually supporting the wealthy families who became wealthy through oil and still have major portions of their wealth in oil. To sell it all would trigger huge capital gains liabilities so they must transfer the wealth slowly and sell it off as fast as they are able to create matching tax credits to balance the capital gains. With wealth this large that can take decades. They are hoping that by the time it is widely realized those reserves can't be consumed (which makes the estimated future worth of those reserves fraudulent) they will have unloaded their vast oil empires onto the people via pension funds and the like. As long as they can plausibly claim their is no problem with burning all their known reserves, it is not fraudulent to value them as if they can be used. So, yes, help them sow their doubt and spread their seeds of disinformation and see how that helps you, the common man. They have you fooled that, by being a GW skeptic, you are sticking it to "the man".

Currently, they only have the most gullible 35% supporting them. But that is enough to help them unwind their oil interests in a more profitable manner and avoid a lot of tax that would be due if they unwound their positions at once. It really is all about money yet some can't see it.
 
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Media reporting is not science-based. There is a very big difference. Science doesn't care about opinion. It cares about truth and is self-correcting as it pursues the truth.
But if its paid for by people who are looking for a certain outcome ,results can be skeewed any way you want. Im just saying a certian amount of skepticism is not always a bad thing. No doubt the planet is warming ,but how much of it is human caused and can we realistically do anything to make a significant difference. I feel the debt bomb and overpopulation will affect out way of life far sooner than global warming and neither seem to get as much attention.
 
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Yes the climate will always be changing but by no means always warming. But that does not mean we are not affecting it.
IF we are in a prolonged period of low solar output that in the past led to a mini ice age, we may be stabilizing the climate and not even know it.
 
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