Grandpa Bear and Mama Bear install questions

[Todd_C]

My wife and I recently purchased a small farm in Wisconsin. The house is older and very drafty using Propane to heat. Very expensive. So we decided to go back to wood.

My agent told me that he covers non listed Fisher Stoves if properly installed. So I decided to research Fisher Stoves. Which led me to this site. I've been lurking here for a couple of months getting up to speed and learning that I dont know as much as I thought. Okay I have to admit I got addicted to the Fisher Brand Stoves fairly quickly. So I started searching for them on Craigs list. I ran into 2 that I ended up buying. A Grandpa Bear and a Mama Bear. Both are Back vented
The Grandpa Bear will be used in the house Approx 3,000Sqf with basement. I realize if we don't count the basement it is over kill. But oh well.
The Mama Bear will be used in the Garage. Again over kill. I wanted a Baby Bear but couldn't get one. They sell very fast in our area.
The Mama is a simple install Concrete floor chimney straight up thru roof. I plan on heat shielding both to reduce clearances. The mama is UL listed with heat shielding. The Grandpa is not listed.

Grandpa Bear 76 edition 1. It has round door channels. With the taller trees. This stove is in excellent condition. This is the one I'm most concerned about regarding the install. The rear venting poses a few issues. And the location I want to use poses some challenges. I want to corner mount it near a sliding window with a thru the wall exhaust. I have 2 options on the chimney.

Option 1 ::: 90 Deg elbow out back. 4.5 ft rise another 90 Deg elbow to Stainless chimney pipe thru wall. Another 90 Deg elbow and up thru the eave. I have approx 18ft of pipe that came with the Grandpa. So if all is used we have 22.5 Ft of vertical with 3 elbows Plus 2 feet or so of vertical pipe. Will three 90 deg ells impede exhaust flow? My reasoning behind this option is based on two things aesthetics ( I really like the look of that stove pipe coming up from the stoves) and heat gain by having the stove pipe inside for more of the run as compared to option 2.

Option 2 ::: Out the back with a 45Deg elbow Due to corner mount. Horizontal stove pipe to Stainless pipe thru wall. Then 90 deg vertical thru eve. With approx 18ft of ss pipe.

How much am I gaining by keeping the stove pipe vertical in the room versus the horizontal transition to stainless out the back.?

Then there's the next issue. The window. I plan on heat shielding for clearance issues. So what are the specs on distances to windows trim etc? I was considering using a removable shield that attaches to a permanent one that will be attached to the other corner wall. This way I can remove it in the summer and use the window.

 

[coaly]

Welcome to the Forum, Todd;
I assume by ss pipe you mean insulated chimney sections. The connector pipe inside isn't going to make much difference between two 45 els with slanted pipe, or two 90's with vertical. As long as it's 8 inch. I'd go vertical due to looks, and you can see the damper handle better to be aware of its position.

As you probably know, codes to satisfy will be from NFPA 211. Chapter 12 starts with; Any listed appliance needs to be installed as per listing and manufacturers instructions. Any unlisted appliance must be installed as per installation instructions, AND any unlisted appliances must be installed as described in this standard. So since the standard requires 18" floor protection, and your manual without UL testing shows only 8", you need to go by the more strict NFPA standard.
The listed Mama Bear should have clearances given on tag.

Clearance to Combustible means just that. Sheetrock, wood trim, wood framing...... 36" for unlisted appliance with clearance reduction possible with approved shields.
This may explain how to measure for your window ;
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/stove_wall_clear

A removable shield is going to be up to an inspector or insurance company. Highly doubt if they would allow it. (hinged, non removable may be OK)
As an example, when I installed unvented gas heating appliances in an area that would require more cubic area for oxygen than the room had, it would not be legal to simply remove the door to the room, since they could put the door back on after I left. But you can cut a vent through the door properly to be able to add the cubic area outside the room to area inside the room heater is in.

NFPA 211 does not allow use in a garage. Chapter 12 2.3 and 12.2.4.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/code-says-no-wood-burner-in-garage.111437/

 

[Todd_C]

Ok next question. From what I've read so far 24Ga is the thinnest steel you would want to use for heat shielding. Does using thicker material work as well or better.
Or Is using a thicker sheet of metal detrimental. When it comes to more mass and heat retention. And does the thinner sheet slough off heat better?

 

[Todd_C]

As for the Mama Bear. It has arched doors. Were all these doors nickle plated? or just some of them?

 

[coaly]

24 Ga. is the minimum. Thicker is fine. The heat shield material specified on prints for the rear and bottom shield added to the UL listed stoves is 20 Ga. cold rolled steel.

Doors were available black (unplated) called Classic, Nickle plate called Contemporary, and a Touch of Brass as shown on back of 1980 brochure below.

 

[Todd_C]

Here's a pic of the stove and it's intended location.

 

[Todd_C]

My concern is the windows. How do I protect them. Without making it look foolish.

 

[CamFan]

coaly Has provided the information for what you need to do. Move it out and 36" from the window trim. I know people who move the stoves out in the room in the winter and back close to the wall in the summer. If you ever put one to close and always wonder if today is the day it catches fire it is no fun to wonder that. If you have a family or anyone living with you, please do not jeopardize their lives. I have sold wood stoves since the 70's and I started with fishers. Not hardly a day would go by that someone would try to convince me their idea was better than what was tested and designed for. If you are limited for room you can sell the fisher and buy a approved stove that may allow you to be as close as 10" with double wall pipe. Just a thought.

 

[coaly]

My Grandpa called that "Put'in up the stove".

 

[CamFan]

I have never heard that one. But I like it.

 

[Todd_C]

coaly Has provided the information for what you need to do. Move it out and 36" from the window trim. I know people who move the stoves out in the room in the winter and back close to the wall in the summer. If you ever put one to close and always wonder if today is the day it catches fire it is no fun to wonder that. If you have a family or anyone living with you, please do not jeopardize their lives. I have sold wood stoves since the 70's and I started with fishers. Not hardly a day would go by that someone would try to convince me their idea was better than what was tested and designed for. If you are limited for room you can sell the fisher and buy a approved stove that may allow you to be as close as 10" with double wall pipe. Just a thought.

Or I could keep the Fisher, properly install it with heat shielding, and save money that I don't care to toss at a brand new super expensive stove. Just a thought.
The plan is for an outside boiler in the long run. So buying a expensive one in between is not in the cards. Besides if everyone did that there would be no room for Fishers. And we cant have that. Now tell me where in my post did I ever act like I know more than the others on this site. Where did I say My ideas were better than yours or anyone elses? Where did I mention a inadequate install and where did I make it sound like I was not concerned about SAFETY? Where did I say MY ideas were better than those tested for? The last time I looked I was here asking and NOT telling.

The heat shield table for non UL stoves shows a 66% decrease in distance with proper shielding. That could bring it down to 12 in. from combustibles. Were trying for 18 in. With shielding that allows for 12". For a 50% reduction. Instead of 66%. I can deal with the shielding of the wall and trim but my concern is the glass. The trim is 3/8 so the air gap begins there for a total of 1 3/8. when it comes to air space behind the shield. The need to save space is being confused. The need is to tuck it as safely as possible in the corner so my grandchildren will not run into it when they're blowin off steam. The further it is in the room the bigger the risk of them running into it and getting burned is. Tucked safely in the corner is the safer bet. The room it is going into is 25'x 35' so room is not the issue. Windows are the issue. There are a lot of them. Moving it to an inside wall is not an option. If I could I would do that instead.
My questions were quite simple. Example:: I was wondering what sloughs off heat better thinner or thicker sheet steel? Coaly says the specs called for 20Ga. Thats good enough for me. But is going thicker than that SAFER or a waste? Can the glass handle the heat at the distance I have to work with? And what would the safe distances be? Or do I need to completely heat shield the windows as well? I can put up the shields over the windows in the spring rather than put up the stove. Technically Glass is Non combustible. But that does not stop it from cracking or shattering from the heat. So I need to somehow protect it. Permanent heat shielding is only as permanent as the screw gun needed to remove the screws. In other words there is no such thing as permanent even in the eyes of the suspecter aka inspector. So I see no reason that the shielding cannot be removed in the spring. Instead of the stove. That beast weighs as much as my Harley and I am not in the mood to move a 500 Lb plus stove every spring when I can remove the shields instead. As long as it's SAFE.
My other question:: is there a table showing height on the shielding. The plan is to shield the entire wall. And as much of the windows as necessary. So correct me if I'm wrong. But would shielding 36" above the top plate be adequate as a minimum on the sides Where the windows are or should it be higher.?

 

[coaly]

Shield should be as high as the stove top (or the glass) in your case. You didn't mention floor protection. Is this on a concrete slab with tile? If you're building it up with brick base, raising the stove is going to radiate a lot more sideways to the windows. Up the wall in the back and covering the close window trim is for the pipe. Looks like double wall pipe inside with a 6 inch reduced clearance, otherwise 18" with single wall which it doesn't look like you have. It's going to look lopsided up the corner without covering the window. Making the lower solid part of the shield non-removable and a removable section that covers the window is an option. UL listed stove boards may be the answer ! They are lightweight and can be mounted with spacers and screwed to studs or window framing. Check the Ace Hardware website for stove boards sizes. Our local store stocks them. That's the only answer I can come up with since covered cement board is going to be extremely heavy to move. (The Kitchen Queen in picture below is on the largest one they sell at Ace - in Black )

Thickness of metal isn't important, the air space is. Use whatever thickness you want over 24 Ga. Goldilocks had two sheets on the back and was listed for 12 inch clearance. (I put a spaced stove board on the wall behind mine anyway since the wall was uncomfortably warm to the touch. The stove board kept it cold)

If the windows are double pane, I'd ask a window manufacturer. I'd be concerned about building up pressure between the glass panels.

"Foolish" is a relevant term and I don't get into esthetics. I built my place to be able to heat with an open floor plan and the stoves are in the middle of rooms to allow an inside chimney, laundry drying around them, and had a stove before kids or grandkids, so they grew up with them with no problem. Foolish to me is a central heating system I don't need, TV, cell phone (I don't have or ever used) and buying store bought vegetables if we didn't can enough ahead of time. These things most people can't live without. If it wasn't for the fridge and computer, I'd be happy without electric too.
Here's my clothes dryer, water heater, house heat, lights and phone in the kitchen.
(yes, my phone has a crank on the side)

How about camo boxers for foolish?

 

[CamFan]

I came off wrong and I appologize for sounding like what you are thinking. If we were face to face it probably would not have came accross like my post did.
Again Coaly added some good information. One thing I would add is if you use double wall pipe off the stove it has a 9" to combustables. Single wall is 18" so that is where I would start my plan.
A heat sheild is a good idea only if your insursance will cover it. Most will not since there is nothing in writing from fisher saying an original fisher with a shield had a reduced clearance. Some of the later models had heat shields. If you measure the width of the back and add 8" and the height and add 4" you can bend the metal 4" wider than the stove, 90 degrees. and the top at approx 22 degree angle. notching here will be required for the top bend. lay out 4 holes on the back of the shield and drill. Use 5/16 drill bit. put the shield to the back of the stove and get it even all the way around and mark the holes on the back of the stove. Weld some 2 1/2" 1/4" bolts to the stove. add a nut to each bolt, install a second nut for each and you have a rear heat shield. this can also be done on the sides with straight or flat metal. this will also prevent accidentally running into the stove directly. I raised 3 kids and none of them got hurt or burned because of the stove. I had one burnt worse from a light bulb.
Protection under the stove and the wall guards will be good too. 16" in front of the stove is what most insurance require and I can not remember what was required past the stove on the sides.
Again I appoligize for sounding like a ???????????????
good luck on your project

 

[Todd_C]

No need to apologize. I was havin a bad morning. Can single wall stove pipe be treated like the stove with heat shielding? By this I mean will wall shielding ( sheet steel ) floor to ceiling allow for closer pipe distances? Which brings me to another question. How big of a gap should the top of the shield have if it's floor to ceiling? Base is 1 inch, is there any spec for the top? Haven't decided on what the base will be but if memory serves me 2" thick block due to 7 inch legs with 18" extension beyond sides and front. They decided to bust the chimney down and put propane in years ago. and there are piles of old chimney block out back. I was considering cleaning them up and re-using them for the base.

I didn't mention I have a wife who is bending my ear and squeezin my shoes about appearance. Like the guy with the torch having the final say I have someone far worse and twice a dangerous having the final say on most things hehehe..
I dont mind being called special needs. hehehe

 

[CamFan]

Can single wall stove pipe be treated like the stove with heat shielding? I have no clue on this.

How big of a gap should the top of the shield have if it's floor to ceiling? Base is 1 inch, is there any spec for the top? I think 1" was the same top and bottom.

What I would do is draw it up and get written approval from your insurance before spending much.

 

[Todd_C]

I agree. I'm going to have my agent stop over and give me his ideas. I'm thinking 8" double wall stove pipe to solve the pipe problem .. I have other options regarding location. But this one, believe it or not, has more pro versus con.

 

[Todd_C]

Is this a legit install? When it comes to the stove pipe?

 

[CamFan]

It looks like it to me. the durock has spacers, They used a shield on the single wall and I do not know what this reduces the pipe clearances. Floor protection. I would go ahead and use double wall all the way.
The smoke alarm on the wall may be a bit close

Coaly would know more on this than me.

 

[Todd_C]

That was a pic i found on the net and was curious about the pipe shield. Aparently they can reduce space by 50%.

 

[coaly]

The approved heat shield reduces single wall pipe clearance from 18" to 9". Double wall pipe is reduced down to 6".

As far as the above pic; Looks OK to me, the shield probably should have gone up to the thimble.... It's probably a telescoping pipe that slides into the thimble to take it apart. That's how I do it in a straight up install. But then the shield would have to be removed to pull pipe.

Notice the silver heat shield below my stove in my kitchen pic. It's a galvanized pan to protect floors from spills draining oil. (by Blitz) Cookstoves require greater floor protection. The stove sits on plywood subfloor with 1/2" cement board, tile, and UL approved stove pad. (That protection system comes to just below the specified listed requirement being R of 0.893) The stove pad got way hot to the touch under firebox, so I added the sheet metal shielding raised on bricks at the corners. I had it, and it was just the right size to fit between stove legs. The stove pad stays cool under the firebox, and cold under the oven.