Hampton HI300 Installed! And questions!

[pulldownclaw]

Hello everyone,

First of all, thanks for all of the great info you have provided, I have stumbled upon a great resource! I will continue to read up on the many aspects of wood burning.

The install went fairly well, although the guys had to break out some brick in the back wall of the fireplace, because the stove wouldn't fit flush. It's a corner chimney, and the back wall of the fireplace was angled, so on the stove was hitting the wall on the top end.

Now, on to the things I am not so sure about. We got a poured high-temp cement liner, which they poured all the way down to the top of the fireplace, meaning they took out the damper, etc. and filled the whole smoke chamber up with this stuff. What was left was a 10" diameter flue, even though Hampton specifies 6". I called him about this and he said he was aware of this, but if in the future we wanted to sell the house the people who bought it would be forced to use a wood stove. I can see this point, but I am a little concerned about my draft (it's a 24' exterior chimney). The second reason I am concerned about my draft is that he did not install a pipe from the top of the stove up in to the liner. He says that code here in Virginia says that's okay as long as the gap is 6 or 7 inches, although when I looked, it looks closer to 9. He says they tested it, and the draft was so strong, it was sucking the insulation up in to it that they were trying to put in. He also said that it would complicate cleaning the stove, having a pipe there. As I stated in a previous thread, our opening on the face of the fireplace is 2" wider than the stove, so we have a 1" gap on both sides, so the face of this is not sealed up in the least. We are waiting for Hampton to come out with their larger surround, which would cover up these gaps.

I am worried I am going to have smoke pouring out into my family room! We haven't tried a fire yet (it just rained a bunch, so the little bit of wood I have is now wet-d'oh!). So, what about this raises your eyebrows? I anxiously await your suggestions/comments!

BTW, the stove looks great and we can't wait to burn, and my eyes are already searching for scrounging opportunities!

 

[BrotherBart]

I will let Elk and others tee off on this installation but will say that the Uniform Statewide Building Code in the State of Virginia defaults to the International Mechanical Code for masonry fireplaces. And the IMC definately states that the appliance has to be sealed to prevent intrusion of air from the living space into the chimney. That gap around that insert ain't getting it done.

And the business about easier cleaning is B.S. You are going to have to pull that insert to clean the chimney every time, the way it is installed. With a liner from the stove to the cap all you have to do is brush the crud down into the stove, scoop it out and you are done. No pulling of the insert.

Also, your manual surely states that the exhaust has to at least be extended up into the flue.

 

[pulldownclaw]

Also, your manual surely states that the exhaust has to at least be extended up into the flue.

I was reading the manual last night, and it definitely showed some sort of positive connection(?) on all of the options of the install.

 

[elkimmeg]

Before I critique your isnstalltion, I do not want to crush your feelings. So I have to ask you do you want the spoon fed version or the needle? And VA subscribes to the International Mechanical codes. Adopted by every state. That being true, Your installers BS the that part of their installation. Then there is the actual installation manual, detailing proper installation to meet code. Again it is quite evident they never opened it. I have the manual here and have inspected the Hampton inserts many times. I know what is required and what is written in the manual.
Before I detail it, I do not want you ticked off at me, for exposing the code violation deliquencies.

 

[pulldownclaw]

Bring it on, I didn't install the thing. It will simply give me more ammo when I go back to the guys who installed it, to get them to come back out and do it right. The guys that installed it are the same ones who did the chimney work, and obviously have not done it alot, but how hard is it to open the manual?

 

[elkimmeg]

The install went fairly well, although the guys had to break out some brick in the back wall of the fireplace, because the stove wouldn’t fit flush.

One cannot remove bricks from the firebox there is a reason these bricks are firebricks. The installer just ruined the integrity of the fire box and the whole system chimney and flue is no longer NFPA 211 compliant nor is it Compliant to the International mechanical codes What the hell was this thinking?

What was left was a 10” diameter flue, even though Hampton specifies 6”. I called him about this and he said he was aware of this, but if in the future we wanted to sell the house the people who bought it would be forced to use a wood stove. I can see this point, but I am a little concerned about my draft (it’s a 24’ exterior chimney)

Again this installer is clueless he has no knowledge to the NFPA 211 Cross-sectional code. Your chimney requires a full liner

He says they tested it, and the draft was so strong, it was sucking the insulation up in to it that they were trying to put in

.
This is another what dah Duck is going on here. He is trying to seal the damper area with fiberglass insulation in lew of a block off plate in an exterior chimney 4 times the cross-sectional area.

As I stated in a previous thread, our opening on the face of the fireplace is 2” wider than the stove, so we have a 1” gap on both sides, so the face of this is not sealed up in the least.

What about the prevention of room air intrusion with out a block off plate? Was this guy getting paid, or was he an apprentice for Moe Larry and Curly?

What about the 18” in front of the loading door? From the picture it looks to be about the width on one and ½ bricks about 6”.

I know why you should be real concerned Me I would now be wondering if I would ever allow this guy back to do any work in my home. When they are completely clueless it is hard to envision they are capable of anything that looks like quality work there last example and BS just about says it all. I wish this happened in my town I could help you get it straightened out and done right. Do people actually pay to have this kind of work preformed? What ever happened to pride in workmanship?



INSTALLATION INTO A
MASONRY FIREPLACE
The insert must be installed as per the requirements of your local in-
spection authority. While a full liner is preferred, three methods of fl ue
connection are acceptable in most areas in the US, however in Canada
a full flue liner is required.
1) Positive flue connection, where a large blocking plate and a short
connector pipe is used.
2) Direct flue connection, where a smaller blocking plate and a connector
pipe to the first flue liner tile is used.
3) Full flue liner, where a stainless steel rigid or flexible liner pipe is
routed from the insert outlet collar to the top of the chimney.
Hampton highly recommends the use of a full liner as the safest installa-
tion and provides the most optimum performance. Your retailer should
be able to help you decide which system would be the best for your1

 

[pulldownclaw]

[One cannot remove bricks from the firebox there is a reason these bricks are firebricks. The installer just ruined the integrity of the fire box and the whole system chimney and flue is no longer NFPA 211 compliant nor is it Compliant to the International mechanical codes What the hell was this thinking?

I should have specified, they removed the bricks, then replaced them vertically, instead of continuing at an angle. Is modifying the firebox like this okay? I obviously have to give him a call back and have my list ready. He seems like a respectable person (going back to my earlier thread), he is actually the guy my insurance company recommended after a bad experience with another shady company.

Thanks for your help, I need as much info as I can get for when I call him back.

 

[Mo Heat]

Before I critique your isnstalltion, I do not want to crush your feelings. So I have to ask you do you want the spoon fed version or the needle?

Elk, I hope this doesn't hijack this thread, but I've just experienced a hearthnet first and had to share it with you.

Now, keep in mind that with the description of the installation, I was already expecting an energetic reply from you, and so I was bracing myself emotionally for the blast, but when I read what you wrote (included above), my body reacted with some sort of spontaneously primitive combination of a laugh, a gasp, and a convulsive mouth explosion that included both sound and fury (uh, sorry, sputum), and I literally spit about half an ounce of something onto my chin!

But I have to say, I like the new, kinder, gentler, elk approach.

 

[pulldownclaw]

Elk is not scaring me, I've done enough reading on here before posting that I've seen his, uh, passion for installation technique.

That being said, I know all of you are thinking "well, then you should have told this install guy EXACTLY how to install this stove". Part of me agrees with you, but in my business, when somebody tries to tell you how to do their job, it ticks you off a little bit. I also admit that I should have asked a few more questions of him, but I tried a few times, and he seemed to have reasonable answers. I guess I should have pressed harder before we got to this point.

So, what do I call back and demand? A pipe from the stove into the flue with a blockoff plate? We are planning on getting the oversized surround when it comes out, when we get that does it need to be insulated around the edges? Anything else?

 

[jjbaer]

Elk is not scaring me, I've done enough reading on here before posting that I've seen his, uh, passion for installation technique.

That being said, I know all of you are thinking "well, then you should have told this install guy EXACTLY how to install this stove". Part of me agrees with you, but in my business, when somebody tries to tell you how to do their job, it ticks you off a little bit. I also admit that I should have asked a few more questions of him, but I tried a few times, and he seemed to have reasonable answers. I guess I should have pressed harder before we got to this point.

So, what do I call back and demand? A pipe from the stove into the flue with a blockoff plate? We are planning on getting the oversized surround when it comes out, when we get that does it need to be insulated around the edges? Anything else?

I'm guessing that your stove takes air from inside the hearth area....if so, if you install a liner and have sealed the chimney cap area and then you install a blockoff plate, the only place the stove can draw combustion air from is your living room. This means it draws room air past the surround and into the stove. This means you can't seal the surround to the wall...if you do you starve your stove.....

If your stove uses outside air, then you can seal the surround but there's no reason to if you have the blockoff plate installed.....

 

[elkimmeg]

Ok i had so fun but now down to business I want you to take the suround off and takea picture of the flue colar connection. Detail the pipe connected and how it enters the masonry flue
Is it round to oval and how far it goes up the flue. I am also willing to cut and past code if you need it when discussing your current installation with your installer.

All Hampton owners that I have inspected, are real satisfied with their stoves, All opted for the recomended full liner installation and I require block off blates

If the full liner is installed witha top p seal plate and a well sealed damper plate no suround insulation is required you have already taken care of room air intrusion and any back draft issues

plus you have improve stove preformance and increased your personal safety

Tonight was my bowling banquet I received a call asking me if I needed a MC / disjocky. The guy onthe other end of the phone is currently unemployed and available I wanted to feel for his situation, but pondered how he could critique us bowlers I thanked Imus but declines his invitation

 

[jtp10181]

I would go for a full SS liner but sometimes they are not cheap.

ELK: You missed something, I don't see 16" of hearth protection in front of that door.

 

[elkimmeg]

ELK: You missed something, I don’t see 16” of hearth protection in front of that door.

What about the 18” in front of the loading door? From the picture it looks to be about the width on one and ½ bricks about 6”.

Hampton requires 18". I did not miss that. I pointed it out near the end of my post

 

[RonB]

Hi PullDown, I don't like the part about them pouring a 10" flue for you. Do they own your house? I think not. You were the one to make the call on the size of the flue poured. I just had a "Golden Flue" poured in my existing chimney (not a fireplace though). I specified to the installer I wanted it real close to 6" in diameter. I told him 6 1/4" to 6 1/2" max. It turned out the later and that is fine. Still smaller than the 7" they recommended. I was able to hold my ground thanks to the information and helped received from many on this forum. Oh well, at least your flue is large enough to get the liner the other guys are recommending. A 10" flue is for a fireplace. A 6" is for the wood stove you bought and paid them to install. It doesn't make sense once you understand the importance of correct flue sizing. Ron

Hey PullDown, I am sorry that I came down hard on you when really I was aiming at the installer. What I meant to convey is since the installers don't own your house they shouldn't have been worrying about future owners and their fireplace. They should have been more concerned about making you satisfied.

 

[jjbaer]

Hi PullDown, I don't like the part about them pouring a 10" flue for you. Do they own your house? I think not. You were the one to make the call on the size of the flue poured. I just had a "Golden Flue" poured in my existing chimney (not a fireplace though). I specified to the installer I wanted it real close to 6" in diameter. I told him 6 1/4" to 6 1/2" max. It turned out the later and that is fine. Still smaller than the 7" they recommended. I was able to hold my ground thanks to the information and helped received from many on this forum. Oh well, at least your flue is large enough to get the liner the other guys are recommending. A 10" flue is for a fireplace. A 6" is for the wood stove you bought and paid them to install. It doesn't make sense once you understand the importance of correct flue sizing. Ron

Hey PullDown, I am sorry that I came down hard on you when really I was aiming at the installer. What I meant to convey is since the installers don't own your house they shouldn't have been worrying about future owners and their fireplace. They should have been more concerned about making you satisfied.

Comment: The installer has an obligation to install the stove properly....the 10" flue he installed is 78 sq inches. If the stove requires a 6" flue (about 28 sq in) then the 28 sq in stove is expanding into a 78 sq in poured flue for a ratio of about 2.8 (78/28 = 2.8) which I believe exceeds code........so.....I'd go back to your installer and say "it's all well and good that you poured a 10" flue and preserved the path for the next homeowner to use a fireplace but in doing so, your installation of my insert now violates code and to make it right you now have to pay the cost of providing a 6" 316 Ti ss liner to slip down into the 10" flue you poured".......

P.S. the good news is that you probably don't need the liner to be insulated. What do you think, Elk?

 

[elkimmeg]

I agree with Cast since it is a recently poured chimney which should have restored the liner back to NFPA 211 compliance. Insulation is not needed to obtain the UL listing of clearances to combustiables in a compliant chimney. Being and exterior chimney, Insulation does serve a function of holding in heat and promoting better draft

 

[pulldownclaw]

Ok i had so fun but now down to business I want you to take the suround off and takea picture of the flue colar connection.  Detail the pipe connected and how it enters the masonry flue
Is it round to oval and how far it goes up the flue.

As I said in my earlier post, there is no pipe going from the stove into the masonry flue, that's what caught my attention first off. I did take off the surround and snapped some pics, but won't be able to post them until tonight.

Sounds like I have gotten myself into a pickle. I came home from work the day they were pouring the liner, and asked the workers what size it was. When they said 10" I got on the phone and called the owner and talked to him about it, and he gave me the answer previously mentioned. I did see the flue size recommendations/requirements on another site, and it seemed like even though 10" is too large, it seemed like it was just within requirements, so I thought the chimney guys were staying within code. Well, I guess I've got some arm wrestling to do now.

I'll post pics of the install later.

 

[elkimmeg]

As I said in my earlier post, there is no pipe going from the stove into the masonry flue, that’s what caught my attention first off.

Did you pay to have the stove installed? Is this what they claim is an installation? If you don't mind how much did you pay for the installation?


Yess post the pictures, this is too bizare to fathom I have to see this

Tell me what are they using the insulation for? Can you get a picture of that?

 

[pulldownclaw]

Yes, we did pay to have them install it. They charged us $550 to alter the firebox and install the stove. What a deal, huh?

The insulation was what comes with the stove, to insulate around (behind) the face of the surround.

 

[jtp10181]

ELK: You missed something, I don’t see 16” of hearth protection in front of that door.

What about the 18” in front of the loading door? From the picture it looks to be about the width on one and ½ bricks about 6”.

Hampton requires 18". I did not miss that. I pointed it out near the end of my post

I guess after reading that long post I spaced out near the end, heh.

 

[webbie]

Sounds like a lot of back and forth - but the end result is that the chimney appears to be in great shape. Also, the Hampton manual, which overrides NFPA, allows for the type of installation done - and I also think NFPA allows up to 3:1 (in interior chimneys) - so #1, we can say that the chimney situation is at least quasi-legal. To go even further, NFPA until a year or so ago allowed up to 4:1, and I have not noticed the physics of the earth changing in that time! If that makes it sound like the number is pulled out of a hat - well, yes, it sort of works that way. We know this chimney is round, as well as insulated and it probably drafts like an SOB. Coupled with the fact that it is in a relatively mild climate, and it should not provide much of a problem - except in terms of cleaning.

A metal plate should be used

The front clearance should meet the manual 18" as mentioned....

Now we get to the masonry modifications - this is an in-the-field situation that none of us can see. From the description, it would be my guess that it may be perfectly safe in terms of use with the insert. Whether or not it is safe as an open fireplace would be subject to an inspection and comparison with the published specs regarding modern fireplace construction.

So, all in all, it certainly does not seem like the 3 stooges were involved. Of course, this is all from afar, so take it for what it is worth.

 

[jjbaer]

I agree with Cast since it is a recently poured chimney which should have restored the liner back to NFPA 211 compliance. Insulation is not needed to obtain the UL listing of clearances to combustiables in a compliant chimney. Being and exterior chimney, Insulation does serve a function of holding in heat and promoting better draft

Elk,

If they insert an unlined 6" ss liner down the 10' flue they poured, doesn't the 10" flue also have insulating properties so insulation on the 6" liner might not be necessary or would you also recommend insulation on the liner?

 

[jjbaer]

Yes, we did pay to have them install it. They charged us $550 to alter the firebox and install the stove. What a deal, huh?

The insulation was what comes with the stove, to insulate around (behind) the face of the surround.

Help me understand this......they put in a 10" poured flue and shoved the insert into the hearth. Then they want to or did seal the surround with insulation? Is this correct? If so, your stoves air intake is behind the surround in the hearth and providing it is NOT drawing outside air from a hole in the hearth that means the stove's trying to suck air from either your room (can't because of the insulation around the surround) or from the flue gases coming out of the stove. Since the path of least resistance is the flue gases, this is where it will take it from. The problem is that there is not much oxygen for combustion in spent flue gases that have already consumed the oxygen so it sounds like you need to make the stove get its air elsewhere...like from your living room. To do this you need to run a short length of liner (a few feet) from the stove connector up a foot or so past the damper area into the 10" flue and then install a block-off plate at the damper. Then remove the insulation from around the surround. Now your exhaust gas has its pathway (from the stove connector up into the 10" flue) and the stoves fresh air intake has its own separate pathway (drawing air from around the surround from your room) and the two pathways never meet...........

 

[elkimmeg]

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NFPA, allows for the type of installation done - and I also think NFPA allows up to 3:1 (in interior chimneys) - so #1, we can say that the chimney situation is at least quasi-legal. To go even further, NFPA until a year or so ago allowed up to 4:1,

Gee craig time to stay out of codes. The last time the NFPA allowed 4 to one was in 1977 reduced to 3 to one in 1981 Plus he has an exterior exposed chimney no vent pipe from the flue collar to the masonry flue. You need coreccting again 2002 the NFPA revised the cross section code for the 2003 edition, so its been 4 years since the cross section code reconized location in relationship to Exterior location. The guy paid $550 to have a slam in installation that the suround has an inch air space on both sides he is 12 " shy of front loading door clearances and has issues with the wood mantel above. Since there is no vent pipe there is nothing to block off around.

This is the worst attempt of an installation on this forum where a " pro and Iam justing here" did the installation

There is no freaking vent pipe conneccted to the flue collar the suround is open on both sides

Craig I know you are trying to make the situation s seem not all that, bad but honestly would you want that guy back in your home to do work again. To make matters worse he make refference to code to justify his installation And spews out a line of BS to the owner

 

[GVA]

This sounded familiar this type of install with the insulation on the insert surround and a direct connect.....
So I went back to check and this was what I found.... https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/6043/
Not trying to scare you but something to be aware of..
IMHO in this day and age there really is no need to shortcut or skip a full liner......