Harman 52i Install; Let me Get This Right

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rob.mwpropane

Member
Dec 1, 2013
99
Baldwin MD
Hey gang; thanks to all those who have posted informative things here. I feel like I know some of you. At any rate, I was so happy with the outcome of "my hand me down" pellet stove (Old Earth Stove MP35/50) that I decided to spring for the new Accentra 52i. I have this thing ordered and feel I am fully capable of installing it myself. I have climbed up the roof, measured what I need, etc. etc. I know I want to run the liner to the cap, and am pretty sure I'm running 4" OAK to the cap as well (15' max), but I can't seem to find a place online that sells a chimney cap with a solid plate that I could put the holes in myself (13"x13" terracotta flu)? And what is the general consensus on insulating the liner for a pellet stove? Naturally insulation, Roxul or what not at the base above the damper, but what about the full length? I live in Maryland and have been told by the local dealer that intake and exhaust need to be 4' apart to follow code; I'm more keen on NFPA 54/58 in my line of work, so offsets for pellet stoves I'm not up on. Does anyone have pictures of their OAK out the top? I've attached a picture of another install on here that I'm shooting for. Advice, tips, and the cheaper websites that people use most welcome.

(P.S. - chimney is in the middle of the house, hence 4" OAK to top and not 3" out the back)

P.P.S. - These pictures are not mine, and I don't claim them to be
P.P.P.S. - Would of probably been easier and I would have been just as happy with the P68, however the Majolica Brown 52i was a MUCH easier sell to the wife;)

Thanks. advice much appreciated; and if anyone is local to Maryland and in need of owning their own propane tank, gas lines (shameless plug), or have questions regarding such a job, (as I'm happy to give back to a forum that has freely given to me) feel free to contact me. THANKS!!!
 

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Ctcarl

Feeling the Heat
Jan 4, 2014
427
Connecticut
Well good luck and congrats on your stove . If your confident in doing it your self power to you . I had mine installed and was very happy with the outcome.get some pics:)
 

rob.mwpropane

Member
Dec 1, 2013
99
Baldwin MD
Pictures are a definite. Where did you have them run the OAK, or is it pulling from the house? I still haven't figured if what I want to do with the intake and exhaust and if its legal per code. I feel mechanically capable, but I read threads on here and someone says "yes, insulation is a must", then someone says "no". "Oak is great", "no its bad"...it seems everyone has an opinion, and while I may not agree with all the codes, I'd like to try to stay as close to them as possible. I'm calling the county this morning to see what they say...
 

Mt Bob

Minister of Fire
Oct 31, 2013
3,326
park county montana
Pictures are a definite. Where did you have them run the OAK, or is it pulling from the house? I still haven't figured if what I want to do with the intake and exhaust and if its legal per code. I feel mechanically capable, but I read threads on here and someone says "yes, insulation is a must", then someone says "no". "Oak is great", "no its bad"...it seems everyone has an opinion, and while I may not agree with all the codes, I'd like to try to stay as close to them as possible. I'm calling the county this morning to see what they say...
I have seen many service manual install guides and was a little confused,also.The 4' seperation from flue to intake air is for the intake air "of another appliance".Dealer/installer should know better.
 

rob.mwpropane

Member
Dec 1, 2013
99
Baldwin MD
So, would running intake/exhaust to chimney top be ok? Like in the picture I posted? I just got off the phone with my county inspector. He pretty much told me "whatever the manual stipulates", the problem is, the manual shows the intake terminating above the damper plate if using an outside air kit. Not one diagram shows the intake running to the top.

The problem with that is harmans adapter that allows outside air to be drawn into the flu is 20"x20", when I only have 13"x13" to work with....which is why I just wanted to take it to the top and call it a day....
 

rob.mwpropane

Member
Dec 1, 2013
99
Baldwin MD
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CBL

Member
Apr 16, 2013
140
MA
No you don't need insulation around the liner as it's a forced draft appliance. But does it hurt to have it? No not really. (My liner isn't insulated)

I have my OAK setup exactly as the manual says (it is the same for P35i and P52i). The top cap that seals the masonry flue has vents to let air in and the OAK pipe terminates about 12' below the top of the chimney. I think I like this method better than running it full length because if you have an issue or obstruction you can service it from the fire box rather than having to get up on the roof.

I also made my own venting at the top sealing plate. I used a terra cotta top plate and made a spacer out of 3/4" square tubing that I drilled holes into that went between the flue and the plate and sealed everything up with RTV to hold it down. The overhang from the terra cotta top plate provides weather protection for the vent holes and the terra cotta plate is oversized just enough gap to let air in. It's been working great for me this season.
 

rob.mwpropane

Member
Dec 1, 2013
99
Baldwin MD
Why did you opt to run it almost all the way to the top? Just curious, wouldn't it have been just as efficient, maybe a little less costly to terminate a few feet above appliance? (As pictured in the manual) My install is only 15' tops, so 4' of intake vs 10' really isn't going to make a difference...I don't think...
 

Superglyde

Member
Sep 19, 2013
58
our 52i manual shows an option of the OAK termininating in the chimney providing you have a way to get air into the chimney, thus the recommendation for their top. I didn't use their top for the same reason you mention above. My terracotta is 13x13 also. I modified...er...jury rigged...my setup and I think I will work on chaning it out in the spring but haven't been able to find the right top you asked about. I also have wind/downdraft problems as well from the second story roof as my chimeny is on the first floor addition and is only 15 feet.
The only downside so far to having the OAK terminate in the chimney is the damn stinkbugs nest in the chimney and are probably getting fed into the stove....but I bet they are..incinerated! don't smell them cause its a closed system....air to exhaust.
 

Superglyde

Member
Sep 19, 2013
58
i don't like that setup in your first post. saw that before myself. Its too close only because it will suck down flyash. If Harman made a top plate for our size, then we wouldn't have that problem
 

rob.mwpropane

Member
Dec 1, 2013
99
Baldwin MD
Ok, I'm still not sure the benefit of running up to the top with intake? Wouldnt that cause more of a restriction as opposed to terminating directly above the unit? Of course, still have the same vented top plate/cap. On the plus side I have an idea for the top plate/cover based off of your post. Will take plenty of pictures upon install, ....
 

CBL

Member
Apr 16, 2013
140
MA
If Harman made a top plate for our size, then we wouldn't have that problem

You can actually trim it down to size if need be. I just didn't use it because it looks weird and it costs a lot of money.

Why did you opt to run it almost all the way to the top? Just curious, wouldn't it have been just as efficient, maybe a little less costly to terminate a few feet above appliance? (As pictured in the manual) My install is only 15' tops, so 4' of intake vs 10' really isn't going to make a difference...I don't think...

That's what I did. you still have to keep the intake a minimum below the exhaust termination (I think its 4')
 

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rob.mwpropane

Member
Dec 1, 2013
99
Baldwin MD
As far as the 4', I don't think that's code. Still looking into that, I think it depends on the situation, for instance, how can they manufacturer the exhaust where the intake is on the outside of the exhaust pipe? The inspector I spoke with was really heavy on following the manufacturers specs....

Now onto my next small hurtle, what about the electric? Do most people run electric through the wall or cleanoyt to hide the plug? As it stands, my best thinking is running a new line from the basement through the cleanout, or at least the top of the wall above the cleanout....any suggestions? Anyone know what the code is for electric box in fireplace? Naturally surge protector for sure...
 

deercamp

Member
Jan 3, 2013
119
se mass
It's pretty funny how you never see the electrical cord running across the hearth in any stove brochures. They must be using that new invisible cord. A dealer told me that it's not a good
idea ruinning an extension cord down to the basement because you might have to high or low voltage. I am going to be mounting a plug in the back of my fireplace when I go to install
my insert. I am not worried at all about doing this I have talked to many of my electrician friends and they said that it would be fine. On the same note I am going to go overboard on safety
using the proper fire rated materials just in case.
 

rob.mwpropane

Member
Dec 1, 2013
99
Baldwin MD
The only issue I have with "mounting" anything means I'd have holes in a perfectly good fireplace should I ever move. (Because I'm not leaving the stove behind). I would like to have a receptacle, just haven't 100% thought that all the way through... anybody have any ideas that don't involve mounting to the floor/wall? Could it be mounted to the frame?

So I started taking the damper apart and made a block off plate. I attached photos. One thing that scares me a little is how close the appliance will be to the carpet, and how the inspector will interpret the manual. It says --"6 inches from glass", I might have 7" from glass if I'm lucky, but not from the base of the unit... 20140301_124022.jpg 20140301_124050.jpg 20140301_124218.jpg 20140301_124556.jpg 20140301_124622.jpg
 

deercamp

Member
Jan 3, 2013
119
se mass
Do you plan on coming up through the clean out? If so what I plan on doing is just mounting the receptacle box with one or two screws using a shield in a grout joint. Then when you remove it
you just have to patch one or two 1/4" small holes and rub a little black soot and ash on it and you'll never notice it. The pan looks nice did you do that yourself? What did you
attach the pan with?
 

rob.mwpropane

Member
Dec 1, 2013
99
Baldwin MD
Yes, coming through the cleanout with 12 or 14 gauge romex. I was thinking possibly a shut off in the basement, and maybe the outlet attached to the frame? I'm not sure how much room I have as the unit is not here yet.

Thank you for the compliment. I bought a 2'x3' sheet of sheet metal from HD for $9. I used the cardboard method (put a piece in place, trim, repeat until happy with the fit) to get the right shape to trace on the sheet. I then added 2" to the sides and cut it out. I used a razor blade to score it with a straight edge, just bent it back and forth until it breaks. Perfect cut. I used snips for the corners. As of now I just kept the sides bent out more than needed so when I pushed it into place it would stay. I'll take it back down when I get the unit. (I'm really surprised harman doesn't include the measurements in the install manual, I could have the holes cut if I had the exact placement.) I'm really happy with the way it turned out, although I really took my time, so between taking the damper apart and cutting/bending the sheet (and letting the kids feel like they were apart of the project) I spent the better part of 2.5 hours to do it...
 

CBL

Member
Apr 16, 2013
140
MA
ake a minimum below the exhaust termination (I think its 4')
As far as the 4', I don't think that's code. Still looking into that, I think it depends on the situation, for instance, how can they manufacturer the exhaust where the intake is on the outside of the exhaust pipe? The inspector I spoke with was really heavy on following the manufacturers specs....

Have you carefully read the manual yet for the P52i? It explicitly says the minimum is 4' below the exhaust.

If you speak to any city or town building inspector they will always rely on the manufactures instructions when it comes to a solid fuel appliance. And in your example, if the air intake is in the flue chase and you have a chimney cap that's designed with intake slots below the exhaust vent there's really very little chance of it sucking in exhaust. Even in the very unlikely chance it does that combustion air will simply vent out through the exhaust anyway.
 

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fmsm

Minister of Fire
Dec 12, 2011
985
South of Boston MA

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rob.mwpropane

Member
Dec 1, 2013
99
Baldwin MD
Have you carefully read the manual yet for the P52i? It explicitly says the minimum is 4' below the exhaust.

I think I said, "I don't think that's code", and I really don't. I believe the first picture I posted is ok, however I think I would of put a baffle in between the intake/exhaust. That's kind of why I started this thread, to see what other people had done. As of now I plan to do it the way it is in the book as per the second picture I posted in post 6 of this thread. I have a plan for a vent to go under the top plate sort of what harman has,.....just cheaper. And I don't see any point wasting material to go all the way up the chimney with the intake line.

Just a rant, and really not trying to be ignorant (so no offense is intended), but I run into so many problems when people take opinion for code. The 4' rule posted in Harmans 52i install manual is there suggestion, and good in most instances. (See picture) If I had the Selkirk direct vent system, or similar, I would have no problem having the intake/exhaust in close proximity, which is way less than 4'. If the design is right, you can throw that 4' rule out the window because it's NOT code.

I'm only saying all this because I've had multiple people mention this 4 foot rule, (consider the guy at my local dealer, who sells direct vent pipe). Its not code, and it's misinformation to label it as such. There are instances where this can be bypassed, considering the right design.
 

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NHcpa

Minister of Fire
Feb 16, 2014
592
Honyock NH
I think I said, "I don't think that's code", and I really don't. I believe the first picture I posted is ok, however I think I would of put a baffle in between the intake/exhaust. That's kind of why I started this thread, to see what other people had done. As of now I plan to do it the way it is in the book as per the second picture I posted in post 6 of this thread. I have a plan for a vent to go under the top plate sort of what harman has,.....just cheaper. And I don't see any point wasting material to go all the way up the chimney with the intake line.

Just a rant, and really not trying to be ignorant (so no offense is intended), but I run into so many problems when people take opinion for code. The 4' rule posted in Harmans 52i install manual is there suggestion, and good in most instances. (See picture) If I had the Selkirk direct vent system, or similar, I would have no problem having the intake/exhaust in close proximity, which is way less than 4'. If the design is right, you can throw that 4' rule out the window because it's NOT code.

I'm only saying all this because I've had multiple people mention this 4 foot rule, (consider the guy at my local dealer, who sells direct vent pipe). Its not code, and it's misinformation to label it as such. There are instances where this can be bypassed, considering the right design.
I hate to over think this... My middle of the room non exterior chimney is too far for OAK to an outside wall...say, run a pipe from the clean out to the basement and then, outside wall. If the the chimney is sealed from the damper to the crown to provide warmth for exhaust draft, how does opening the crown cap to feed an OAK pipe mounted in the chimney help the draft?
 

rob.mwpropane

Member
Dec 1, 2013
99
Baldwin MD
I hate to over think this... My middle of the room non exterior chimney is too far for OAK to an outside wall...say, run a pipe from the clean out to the basement and then, outside wall. If the the chimney is sealed from the damper to the crown to provide warmth for exhaust draft, how does opening the crown cap to feed an OAK pipe mounted in the chimney help the draft?

I have the same issue you do and
I'll be really honest here; I'm installing my first pellet stove in a chimney, so your terminology is evading me. I know the damper is the metal door I have pictured above, and I would assume the crown is the top? At any rate, I don't think it would help the natural draft. In a wood stove, this would probably be horrible/illegal, but with a pellet stove it's power vented. So natural draft is only relevant in the event of a power outage, in which case I'll have an $80 APC (American Power Conversion) model #BE750G (on Amazon) to run the exhaust while the unit slowly powers down.

I'll admit that there will probably be more creosote build up in the liner because of the cooler temperatures I'll be introducing to the chimney/liner. If it wasn't ridiculously expensive I might wrap it in insulation, but I plan to just have to clean it more often. (What, once a year? Shouldn't I be doing that anyway?)

I hope I answered your question, but please realize that this is based on my opinions from stuff I've read,....so take it with a grain of salt.....or maybe not at all....
 
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