Hearthstone Equinox, Could you guys look at my floor plan.

[heavy hammer]

Still didn't get real cold temps around 30 but there was a pretty good northern breeze. Any ways the sequoia didn't even have to work I put in three larger chunks of mulberry around 830 temps in the basement around 75 to 80 depending on where you were at. At 745 this morning still getting cat temps around 700 with basement temps where they were at last night I put in one large split of beech, that is all the room I had the mulberry lasted longer than I thought. The summit upstairs kept the first floor between 75 to 80 with just a couple pieces of cherry keeping it fed. A little to warm but after working outside all day I'm cold so I kinda of over did it but getting the house warmed up. The wife did a great job getting both going I just may have gone a little overboard my first couple of hours of being home. Anyways neither stove was even worked in my opinion once up to temp both were turned down as far as possible and did a great job of cruising. I know both will have no problem once I see some real cold temps. If I ran the sequoia a little harder I still believe it would heat the whole house even with these current temps. It just might not be as warm as I want it, I like 75 plus! If we do ever get real extreme cold well below zero and the stoves can't heat as well as wanted I still have a oil furnace, full tank ready to go. I believe the sequoia is a great stove many people in Idaho, Montana etc use it to get them through those rough winters. The blaze King and other larger stoves out there are probably just as good maybe even better. I know that this stove wil heat what you need heated, good luck hope this was helpful. Any other questions I can answer I'll try my best.

 

[heavy hammer]

The sequoia didn't even have to work. Been keeping the house especially the basement between 75 to 80. Three big chunks of mulberry around 830 last night, at 745 his morning with cat temps still 700 I put in one larger piece of beech that is all the room I had the mulberry lasted longer than I thought. We did have the summit going last night just to help but it was too much we had temps upstairs at 80. I turned down both stoves as much as possible and they both easily cruised. Granted 30 outside temps with wind is not that cold. But the sequoia could easily do the job I just like a very warm house 75 plus. I think even with zero outside temps the stove could do it, it would just have to work a little. I have the air just about shut all the way off and still getting 700 to 800 cat temps, and stove room is 82. There are many great stoves out there, as I said earlier I was going to get a blaze King, I just like certain aspects of the kuma a little more. I think which ever one you get you will be happy, they are both great products. You just need to see what requirements mean more to you. Hope this was helpful any other questions you have don't hesitate to ask, I'll try my best.

 

[Matt93eg]

Thank you hammer for the help, its is truly very much appreciated, looks like the Kuma would for sure be up to the task in my area. I have still been looking around and I keep coming back to the Kuma Sequoia and Blaze King Ultra.

 

[Matt93eg]

Should I also be considering the Woodstock Ideal Steel? They say it has a 3.2 cubic foot firebox but only estimated to heat up to 2,200 sq/ft, based on that I don't guess I should consider it but it seems a 3.2 cubic foot box and a 620 pound stove is pretty big.

 

[electrathon]

I think I am going to for sure. I have gotten use to how the steel reacts. Was 31 degrees out last night. Woke up this morning and was down to coals from my last load last night. Threw in some wood, in no time I had our steel stove cranking out the heat with a load of white oak in it. Scared the soap stones will just take to long and frustrate me.

I have a Hearthstone, it is very pretty but puts out far less heat than it should. When someone tells you it makes soft heat, that means the heat goes up the chimney instead of the room, making it less likely to burn you. The soapstone is effectively an insulation barrier keeping the heat out of the room. If it wasn't for the glass front it would put out very little heat at all. If both house and stove are cold and I build a hot fire it takes a couple hours till it really is up to temperature. My last stove was a older blaze King, put out way more heat, faster, with less wood and started fires easier. The big plus to the hearthstone is that it does not emit smoke out the chimney when it is burning.

 

[begreen]

electrathon, I don't use the term soft heat that way. For me it more aptly applies to stoves that have a lot of thermal mass. They heat up more slowly but the mass of the stove continues to radiate heat after the fire has died down. This reduces temp swing between loadings. This behavior could be with a masonry heater, soapstone or a castiron jacketed steel stove.

It's odd with Hearthstone stoves. Some see fairly high flue temps like yours and others don't. Not sure why. Our stove is a soft heater as compared to the highly radiant Castine it replaced, but both stoves have reasonable flue temps that tracked about 100F below stove top temp usually.

 

[Woody Stover]

Should I also be considering the Woodstock Ideal Steel? They say it has a 3.2 cubic foot firebox but only estimated to heat up to 2,200 sq/ft, based on that I don't guess I should consider it but it seems a 3.2 cubic foot box and a 620 pound stove is pretty big.

Woodstock sq.ft. ratings are conservative. That, plus the fact that you will have good insulation/air-sealing and live in NC, it's quite possible the IS could handle it. With those 10' ceilings, the Sequoia natural convection should heat a lot of air, with no fan noise.There's no blower with the IS but I would think it would convect to some degree with the side fenders/legs. Another plus is that the IS runs on a 6" flue, which will save you money up front, and also allow you to switch to any 6" flue stove down the road. Being a hybrid, the IS will certainly give you the quick heat you mentioned, with its ability to run in secondary mode. Grated ash-handling is high on the list of features I must have....soooo easy.
If the most-used rooms will be in core of the layout, I would guess either stove would work well.

It's odd with Hearthstone stoves. Some see fairly high flue temps like yours and others don't. Not sure why. Our stove is a soft heater as compared to the highly radiant Castine it replaced, but both stoves have reasonable flue temps that tracked about 100F below stove top temp usually.

My Keystone (soapstone) doesn't run a hot flue, but the exhaust routing is probably a bit different with a cat stove than it would be in a Hearthstone.

 

[Matt93eg]

Woodstock sq.ft. ratings are conservative. That, plus the fact that you will have good insulation/air-sealing and live in NC, it's quite possible the IS could handle it. With those 10' ceilings, the Sequoia natural convection should heat a lot of air, with no fan noise.There's no blower with the IS but I would think it would convect to some degree with the side fenders/legs. Another plus is that the IS runs on a 6" flue, which will save you money up front, and also allow you to switch to any 6" flue stove down the road. Being a hybrid, the IS will certainly give you the quick heat you mentioned, with its ability to run in secondary mode. Grated ash-handling is high on the list of features I must have....soooo easy.
If the most-used rooms will be in core of the layout, I would guess either stove would work well.
My Keystone (soapstone) doesn't run a hot flue, but the exhaust routing is probably a bit different with a cat stove than it would be in a Hearthstone.

Thanks for the insight Woody, I will keep studying. I do keep coming back to the Sequoia due to way it seems to naturally convect as you mentioned.

 

[JA600L]

Do you really want a strong convection stove? Convection stoves heat the air. Radiant stoves heat people and objects.

 

[electrathon]

Do you really want a strong convection stove? Convection stoves heat the air. Radiant stoves heat people and objects.

I know a lot of people like to say this, but it simple is not true. It is physically not possible to heat a wall, floor, table in a room from a woodstove by any means other than the stove gets hot, the air gets hot, the wall gets hot (unless you are heating water in a coil, different story there). A soapstone stove does not transfer heat as rapidly as a steel stove does, the soapstone acts as a thermal barrier. It slowly absorbs the heat, the stove gets warm, the stove warms the air, the air warms the wall. In this manor the steel and stone stove work the same, just the steel grabs the heat and releases it faster, loosing less heat up the chimney. The faster the heat gets to the room, the faster the room will heat up. The more you insulate the heat from the room, the "softer" the heat feels coming from the stove. Imagine holding your coat up between you and a camp fire, your face does not get as hot, the btu's go different directions, but the same amount of heat is released. All heat moves hot to cold. It is absorbed by the cold. The heat does not know if the cold item is air, the wall or a tub of water.

 

[heavy hammer]

The sequoia offers both, it's just with the design of the stove it has a natural built in blower without the motor. I certainly am not an expert, but the few months I have been running the stove I can definitely say it is a heater. As I have said before there are plenty of great stoves out there, my summit on the first floor is a awesome insert. Heats the whole first floor easily. Best advise I can give is to go and look at them an go from there. There are a lot of different stoves being used by a lot of different people here, and most people seem happy with their decision. They all do the job some just better than others.

 

[Woody Stover]

Convection stoves heat the air. Radiant stoves heat people and objects

The sequoia offers both

Yeah, they all heat using a blend of both convection and radiation to some degree.

It is physically not possible to heat a wall, floor, table in a room from a woodstove by any means other than the stove gets hot, the air gets hot, the wall gets hot....Imagine holding your coat up between you and a camp fire, your face does not get as hot

When you block the heat with your coat, that's radiant heat; If it were hot air, you couldn't block it instantly. The same thing happens when I step around a corner 15' away from my soapstone stove, which is radiating. The air outside is at the same temp weather I'm in the shade or the sun, but I can feel the radiant heat on my face from the sun when I step out of the shade.

 

[electrathon]

Yeah, they all heat using a blend of both convection and radiation to some degree.
When you block the heat with your coat, that's radiant heat; If it were hot air, you couldn't block it instantly. The same thing happens when I step around a corner 15' away from my soapstone stove, which is radiating. The air outside is at the same temp weather I'm in the shade or the sun, but I can feel the radiant heat on my face from the sun when I step out of the shade.

So if you stepped around the corner from a soapstone stove the next room will be cold, but around the corner from a steel stove the room will be warm? Soapstone or steel, both are heating the air, just one slower than the other. Once hot, if both have 500 degree surface temp, both will emit the same amount of heat to the room.

The direct flame off the fire would create radiant heat (bad example i used above, we have a stove, not an open fire). The stove walls (soapstone, steel or any other surface) create a barrier from the flame, so the heat escaping is conductive A glass of water sitting six foot from the stove absorbing energy will never get hotter than the air between it and the stove does.

 

[jetsam]

Once hot, if both have 500 degree surface temp, both will emit the same amount of heat to the room.

If you take a steel stove with soapstone panels on the outside, and then smash the panels off with the hammer, you'll get a sudden jump in heat output. The size of the jump depends on how much surface area the panels covered and how thick they were.

Steel has a thermal conductivity of 15-75ish W/m K, depending on its carbon content, with 0.5% carbon steel being 50 W/m K.

Tulikivi claims a thermal conductivity of 6.4 W/m K for their soapstone; I've seen claims of up to 12 W/m K.

If you somehow made a stove of thin-as-steel soapstone, I'd expect maybe 10% of the heat output of the same stove in steel, with the rest going up the flue.

In the real world, the stove is made of steel or cast iron, the soapstone is much thicker (worse for heat output), but the stove has some steel exposed to the air (much better for heat output), possibly even a convection deck with a fan (much much better for heat output).

There's several reasons to buy soapstone, but heat output ain't one of them. That's not to say that a soapstone stove can't be a good heater.... But the same stove would be better with the soapstone removed.

It was probably viewed as a really great material in the days before EPA stoves, since they had very short burn times, and soapstone has a high thermal capacity (it can store a lot of heat, so when your short burn goes out, its high thermal capacity and low thermal conductivity means that it stays warm for a long time).

 

[Matt93eg]

I have a Hearthstone, it is very pretty but puts out far less heat than it should. When someone tells you it makes soft heat, that means the heat goes up the chimney instead of the room, making it less likely to burn you. The soapstone is effectively an insulation barrier keeping the heat out of the room. If it wasn't for the glass front it would put out very little heat at all. If both house and stove are cold and I build a hot fire it takes a couple hours till it really is up to temperature. My last stove was a older blaze King, put out way more heat, faster, with less wood and started fires easier. The big plus to the hearthstone is that it does not emit smoke out the chimney when it is burning.

Thank you for your honest opinion of the Hearthstone. This further steers me away from Soapstone. I was already set on not getting a soap but this helped take any doubt out of my mind. I haven't used but two stoves in my life time. One was an old Black Bart smoke dragon that was steel. Heated up quick, same with the Drolet we have now, heats up super fast but is much more easy on wood compared to the old smoke dragon.

The next stove will for sure be a cat stove, most likely either the BK Ultra or Kuma Sequoia. I can see the advantages of the CAT stove. I have to get the stove real hot to light off the secondary air tubes, this is fine when its cold out like it is this morning(20 degrees F) but when the temps are 40-50 and just need a little heat its hard to find a happy medium in the non-cat. Get a blazing fire then shut down to light secondaries and you run yourself out of the house, turn down to soon and you send all the smoke up the chimney and waste all that fuel. CAT stove should take that out of the equation based on what I am reading of how it works, unless of course I totally misunderstand it.

 

[JA600L]

One bad review of soapstone doesn't cancel out the many good reviews. I personally wouldn't get a Hearthstone though.

You asked previously about the Ideal Steel. I have one. This stove is the perfect combination of a slow burner and an all out heat monster. It will run with a black box and make heat for many hours (cat burn) or give you a solid overnight medium high burn on those cold nights (cat and secondary).

It is a steel stove with an optional soapstone liner and side panel. So it has that perfect combination of a steel stove with soapstone thermal mass.

Keep in mind that Woodstock Soapstone builds stoves for winters in the New England states. They are figuring that 2200 sqft is a good number for a stove living in a harsh winter.

If you look at BTU output, the Blaze King stoves are way under the Ideal Steel and Sequoia. That really has more to do with it than square footage. Blaze King gives the most steady burn times but it only makes so much heat. The sequoia numbers are up there close to a furnace. Then you also need an 8" chimney.

The Ideal Steel in my mind is the most balanced stove and that's why I got it. A hybrid stove has other advantages also. If the cat were to fail it will still run with the secondaries. A pure cat stove is worthless without a cat.

In the shoulder season I use top down fires to start the Ideal Steel. It lights the secondaries up and gets the stove up to temperature very quickly. Others have reported that this does not work with a Blaze King. The Ideal Steel has a large firebox but uses a 6" flue .

I'm not against any of these stoves. They all sound like they are a good option for you. I just wanted to give you the perspective on the Ideal Steel you asked for previously.

 

[BKVP]

There are often references to how one model or manufacturer's product has such and such Btu's and another's are much lower. I have always hesitated to point out this one most important fact. The numbers are somewhat, but not entirely meaningless. Also, do woodstoves made in Alaska provide higher levels of consumer satisfaction because they are made in Alaska? The fact it, consumer reviews mean more than the numbers!

Btu's provided by manufacturers and also on EPA's website are based upon crib fuel, not cordwood! In the labs you would find out why the Btu's have only so much value when reviewing that specification. As you can see, there are different fuel loads for specific ranges of cu. ft. firebox size. If one firebox is larger than another or just beyond the range specified in Method 28R, you could wind up with an entirely different fuel load and correspondingly, vastly different results.

One firebox, because of its small size, could have an entire load of 2 x 4's, step it up a bit, a mix of 2 x 4's & 4 x 4's and larger yet all 4 x 4's. Amount of fuel, surface area, burn rates within each prescribed category (these are significant) beginning coal bed weight and temperatures, moisture content, all influence the results. The only thing that is constant is the dilution tunnel and specific loading protocols.

As we all know, there is only a limited amount of energy in a pound of biomass. If one stove burns the entire load in "x" hours, then is produces a specified amount of Btu's within that period. Of course, a stove that produces 40,000 Btu's and is 80% HHV efficient may in fact put more Btu's into a home than a stove that is 45,000 Btu's but is 65% HHV efficient. Not being privileged to each and every of the multiple influences that can result in final numbers (again on test fuel) is why consumer satisfaction should carry the most weight when evaluating the potential of a particular wood stove.

 

[JA600L]

My question is how much flow of volatile gasses can a cat only stove handle before it begins to slip?

 

[Rearscreen]

I had a Phoenix, then a Mansfield. Never a problem with either of these and I especially loved the Mansfield. After a move, I immediately had to dump the Jotul and planned on another Hearthstone. None would fit. Had to get the Progress as it fit with the stubby leg option and rear exhaust. Bought it reluctantly because of this newfangled catalyst thingamajig. 3 rd season now and this thing beats out the Mansfield in so many ways.

 

[BKVP]

My question is how much flow of volatile gasses can a cat only stove handle before it begins to slip?

Slip? The highest efficiency and cleanest burns occur when residence time is increased. This is in the low burn rate. Often, as a result of increased residence time the combustor generates high temps.

 

[BKVP]

I had a Phoenix, then a Mansfield. Never a problem with either of these and I especially loved the Mansfield. After a move, I immediately had to dump the Jotul and planned on another Hearthstone. None would fit. Had to get the Progress as it fit with the stubby leg option and rear exhaust. Bought it reluctantly because of this newfangled catalyst thingamajig. 3 rd season now and this thing beats out the Mansfield in so many ways.

That is precisely my point! Consumer is satisfied.....

 

[BKVP]

My question is how much flow of volatile gasses can a cat only stove handle before it begins to slip?

One other important consideration...at 550F, most VOC's are destroyed in the chemical reaction of catalytic conversion...unfortunately the cat would have to much higher than 1200F in order to convert all the methane.

 

[JA600L]

One other important consideration...at 550F, most VOC's are destroyed in the chemical reaction of catalytic conversion...unfortunately the cat would have to much higher than 1200F in order to convert all the methane.

First off I want to thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I am a diesel tech and work on a lot of SCR systems so I desire to learn more.

My question is based off of flow rate of air and combustibles during a high burn.

Here is my example. It's 0 degrees outside of my Pennsylvania home with a wind chill of -20. I heat from the basement of my home and I expect my upstairs to stay comfortable. So I am going to fill the stove with hardwoods and run it hard overnight. The firebox is well over 1000f .

Can the catalyst do everything by itself that my hybrid stove does at this point (or a non cat)? Is there a point where the catalyst loses some efficiency and becomes overwhelmed or overheated?
What is the advantage of a catalytic stove on a high burn if you are requiring maximum btus? I'm not questioning the quality of your product. I am questioning what the advantage is of creating a hybrid burn system if a cat alone can do the same thing?

 

[BKVP]

First off I want to thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I am a diesel tech and work on a lot of SCR systems so I desire to learn more.

My question is based off of flow rate of air and combustibles during a high burn.

Here is my example. It's 0 degrees outside of my Pennsylvania home with a wind chill of -20. I heat from the basement of my home and I expect my upstairs to stay comfortable. So I am going to fill the stove with hardwoods and run it hard overnight. The firebox is well over 1000f .

Can the catalyst do everything by itself that my hybrid stove does at this point (or a non cat)? Is there a point where the catalyst loses some efficiency and becomes overwhelmed or overheated?
What is the advantage of a catalytic stove on a high burn if you are requiring maximum btus? I'm not questioning the quality of your product. I am questioning what the advantage is of creating a hybrid burn system if a cat alone can do the same thing?

Yes, a catalyst can do all that is needed on high in terms of clean burning and good efficiencies. Yes, the catalyst can be destroyed (meaning shortening of its lifespan) in any situation where the combustor get much above 1200F. The actual precious metals, palladium and platinum are adhered to the substrate (both ceramic and stainless) using a wash coat of gamma alumina. Under an electron microscope, the surface of the substrate is somewhat smooth, but the wash coat results in a surface that looks like an English muffin. This process vastly increases surface area and creates some turbulence. When the combustor temperatures reach 1200F, the gamma alumina converts to alpha alumina and flattens out, which means it becomes less effective. Sustained use or multiple use at elevated temps shortens the life of the combustor. After too much of these operating temps, the wash coat will peel away from the substrate and take with it the precious metals.

What we learned from the 1980's cat stoves and their problems, is the cat must be protected from room air (leaks or even some designs supplying room air directly to the cat) or it will experience thermal shock. We also learned about flame impingement and the effects it can have on the combustor.

Lastly, even a brilliantly engineered catalyst equipped wood stove, regardless if it is straight or hybrid, can be subjected to atmospheric conditions that can result in excessive combustor temperatures. We avoid this possibility by using a thermostat that closes down the air under these conditions to protect the combustor. The goal was to protect the cat, the side effect was long burn times.

So to your last question, we did in fact make a hybrid model in 1983. We found them to be more costly than a straight cat stove. We found we could get just as clean emissions with a better understanding of how cats work and by using newer cat technology. In this field, there are some very cool things happening in the next year or so. But your glass will stay clean in most hybrid models. And, I guess in all worlds, the word hybrid is very popular right now.

You are very passionate about your stove and you should be! WSS is owned, operated and run by some of the brightest, nicest, consumer satisfaction dedicated people in the stove industry! Just keep one thing in mind, if their units were sold through the retail market, you might have said, "dang those BK's aren't so expensive after all."

 

[Woody Stover]

a catalyst can do all that is needed on high in terms of clean burning and good efficiencies

I guess you mean in respect to passing the EPA requirements, which entail burning at four different rates, low to high; I'm pretty sure I've read of BK owners being able to blow smoke past the combustor when they open up the air, just as I am able to on my Woodstock straight cats, regardless of engineering, cells per inch, etc. I've also seen you mention "residence" of the smoke in the combustor several times. Now, I haven't experimented extensively with this, as I can usually get the heat I need with the air pretty low. It's just that I have seen that a few times when I have some flame in the box and happened to go outside, there can be some smoke getting by the cat.

Yes, the catalyst can be destroyed (meaning shortening of its lifespan) in any situation where the combustor get much above 1200F

Oh, man, we gotta stay under 1200 now?? Not what I wanted to hear...a guy can only do so much! It's a bit easier to visually determine if a cat is above 1600, than it would be to tell if it was over 1200. I suppose it's a matter of degrees (heh-heh, funny.) Just have to do the best I can.

catalyst equipped wood stove, regardless if it is straight or hybrid, can be subjected to atmospheric conditions that can result in excessive combustor temperatures.

I guess you are talking mainly about when it gets colder outside over the course of the burn but it sounds like there's a lot more to it, when you say it. I'm assuming atmospheric pressure isn't a big deal in most locales but I don't know...

using newer cat technology. In this field, there are some very cool things happening in the next year or so.

I don't suppose you are in a position to elaborate right now....

WSS, if their units were sold through the retail market, you might have said, "dang those BK's aren't so expensive after all."

I guess the key word here is "might."