Hearthstone Manchester issues

[NYLuke]

Hello all.
I just purchased a Hearthstone Manchester two weeks ago. I was researching possible issues and came across this forum,
I had a Federal Airtight 288 for the past 20 years, came with the house and had no issues., but I am just confounded by this new stove.
I can't seem to get it fire properly or heat. The stove just wont burn wood. Ive got primarily seasoned Maple, Grey Birch over a year old, top tarped.

When starting the fire I cant seem to get it to draft properly. Chimney is approximately 25' 8" clay, I brush it every year.

Here is a pic of my install. I basically installed it just like the last stove was set up.. Place I purchased recommended 6" double wall pipe to my 8" thimble.

Draft has been real strong in the past.. Actually needed a damper on the 288.. Before I installed the new pipe I could place my ear near the thimble and actually hear /almost feel the draft. So I'm not sure why this stove seems to not draft.

For example, the only way I've been able to get it to fire is to crack a door. With the air control fully open, cracking the front door, will get it done after some time, but it still struggles,. If I crack the ash pan door( which is not recommended) I can usually get my cat and flue to temp without issue in 30 + min. But once I close the door the fire diminishes and if I also engage the cat, the fire almost dies... My flue temp drops and the cat temp continues to rise to almost the overfire range, but from what I read that may be "normal" for a new cat as they can be hyperactive,

However, the heat output is weak even with the air control fully open. Im perplexed.. I've never dealt with a new cat stove before.
The 288 may have had a cat at some point, but I don't think it was functioning when I bought the house and it had either been removed or my dad ended up removing it when we rebuilt the stove the first time just after I purchased the house 20 years ago.. I rebuilt the fire box and gasketed it a few times since then, but this stove is just making me wish I kept rebuilding the 35 yr old 288 rather than purchasing a new stove with "30 hr heat time" ( notice I did not say burn time..lol) I'm well aware of the difference.

First pic is of the install,
Second of the install/chimney height
Third is cat engaged- ash pan was closed 10 min earlier when cat temp was at lower end of active now heading near over temp..
Fourth is dying fire box with full load of grey birch rounds and splits - air control full open
Fifth is flue temp dropping as the fire dies. was in the middle 10 min earlier. .

Really seems like a poor draft but given the fact Ive had no issues for 20+ years and had to install a damperon the 288 .. I'm just not sure..
Could it be wood? I mean I cut this myself and its closer to two years split and tarped than one..


Thanks in advance for any advice...

Luke

 

[kborndale]

You say you have an 8" chimney, doesn't this stove call for 6"?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Let’s get some easy stuff ruled out first, have you measured the moisture content of your wood? A lot of the issues you’re having can be caused by wet wood.

You have lots of 90* bends in that pipe. 90s kill draft. Switch to 45s. The old stove, especially without the cat, let a lot of heat up the chimney, keeping it warm. The new stove will not do that, especially with a cat. Cold chimneys draft horribly. This may be mitigated by your chimney being on the interior of your home to a certain extent. A 6” circle has an area a little over 28sq”. An 8x8 square has an area of 64sq”. The sudden widening of the path further slows draft. You may need to have the chimney lined.

The last thing I can think of, and both the easiest and hardest thing to change, are your burning habits. This stove is very different than the one you’re used to and must be operated differently. It’s still warm right now, and the stove isn’t going to work as well right now as it will once it’s cold in January. I’d go over the operating instructions in detail and follow them. I hate reading instructions, but they probably are the best path to ending the frustration.

 

[wetwood4life]

Regarding starting, the fact the old stove started without doors open means it must not be a problem with your house being too tight. I've heard the new stoves are way more airtight than the old ones. Maybe the "leaky" old stove always had some residual draft while cold, and your new tight stove effectively plugs the chimney, giving you a stagnant column of air when you try to start. Try leaving the stove door & bypass open for a couple hours before a cold start, that should be closer to the old stove. See if that helps. Not a good long-term solution, but it's an easy troubleshooting step.

Separately, once you've started the stove, you're describing weak draft. As I understand it, the new stoves burn hotter at the stove and colder up the flue (thus more efficient). I bet the old stove's inefficiency warmed up your 25' of ceramic a lot faster. You might try keeping the bypass open for an extra long time (the first hour or two) to warm up the chimney. Obviously, you wouldn't need that on a reload. An insulated chimney liner (with the correct 6" diameter) should help fix this.

And a little disclaimer, I'm no stove/chimney expert like some of the guys on here, this is just my thinking aloud. Good luck!

 

[Todd]

These new stoves are very draft sensitive and your 3 each 90’ elbows and 8” chimney is probably killing the draft. I would start by changing those 90’s to a 45 or 30 elbow with a short straight section right off the top and to the side so it lines up under your thimble then 2 45’s to replace the 90 that goes into your thimble. This may help somewhat but you may also need to reline the chimney with an insulated 6” liner.

 

[NYLuke]

Thank you for the replies. Im definitely focused in on the flue as my problem..

Yesterday, I visited the store that sold me the stove and they were very quick to blame my chimney.
I was like REALLY.. I told them I had an 8" flue before they sold me the stove and they sold me an 8 to 6" reducer at my thimble.
Like why would you sell me a stove that doesn't fit my application, give me a thimble reducer knowing it might require thousands of dollars of chimney modification, right now I am more than a little pissed at them.

Ive never measured moisture content, but 1.5 + yrs split and tarped .. Im pretty sure I'm not having that issue. But just for fun I did order one online.. Should be here next week..

As for the stove.
When looking through the manual, The manual does say that an 8" square will work with the stove. I have an 8" round. I can't see that being too different. In the meantime I've been experimenting the past few days.. Damp 55 degree weather here today in the Adirondacks. I know its not the best for creating a draft but if I leave the ash pan not fully latched( its closed and caught, but not air tight) my start is very easy..

If I heat the flue and get it to temp(15-20 minutes) by leaving the door not fully latched.. I have no issue when I close latch fully.. With the air damper open I still have a great fire( actually too great, it might over fire if I leave it alone and forget about it) Once the flue temp hits 500 and cat is in the middle of the active range I can engage.. retard the air and i have a great fire with no creosote forming on the glass.

The combustor is now the question.. I am having trouble operating it without it going into the overfire range. It doesn't go too far but even with the air vent almost closed and a low flue temp/ slow burn rate. The cat temp is close to over fire or just barely in the over fire range. I would think with the cat temp being high, the stove would be giving off a lot of heat, but it is not. The fire in the fire box is not strong. (retarded by air control) and the stove is not super hot..

Dont get me wrong its not cool, but for the cat temp to be near or barely in overfire and the stove not putting out a ton of heat.. .. Doesnt make a lot of sense to me. But then again this is my first time dealing with a cat stove. Thoughts??

Additionally with these cat stoves, after a reload on a hot bed of coals.. How long do you need to run them with the air vent open before you reengage the cat.. My manual doesn't have a lot of info on this.

After a reload on a hot bed of coals last night, the cat temp never dropped out of the operating range ( or even close to dropping out) and I closed too soon (like 5 min) and the window covered with creosote before I noticed. It eventually burned itself clean, but it was a dirty fire for a while before I noticed.

Im looking into a chimney liner, but I cant see how I could install it( or have someone else install it) without having to do a bunch of masonry work on the stone facade on the outside of the chimney. Doesnt seem like I could get the extension from the thimble into the tee in the liner without punching a big hole in the stone and cinder block the stone is hung on.


Thanks in advance.
Luke

 

[EatenByLimestone]

A round stone 8” liner is better than a square one.

Round 6”. 28sq inches
Square 8x8 64 sq inches
Round 8” 50 sq inches

It still not ideal, but significantly smaller.

I think I’d fix the pipe outside the chimney first. All of those 90s really kill your draft. Then focus on learning the stove. Some people spend a season learning the new stove. 2-3 weeks isn’t enough time to expect to have mastered it by now. Your cat will run hot to begin with as it breaks in. I wouldn’t expect the stove to get as hot as the old cast iron stove did. It’s soapstone first, and is a cat stove. It’s going to specialize in running cool for long burn times. A little creosote in the firebox and soot is normal in these.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

@bholler could tell us for certain, but I suspect a socket on some long extensions is the preferred trick for reaching in to tighten the hose clamp on the T. If you do have the chimney lined, make sure they cap the bottom of the T.

 

[bholler]

Yes you should generally have no problem installing a 6" liner in an 8" round clay liner. The snout should be a pretty easy hookup honestly

 

[Bill S]

I would encourage you to be patient and take into consideration others' posts. I run a Hearthstone Castleton I with dual cats, installed in our basement. Our house is super tight and I actual have a cellar window open an inch or so to give the stove enough air to breath. I do believe the Mansfield (like my Castleton) has an option for direct piping to outside air. I opted for the open window at no cost and a little fresh air for us is a good thing.

My owners' manual says first start with the door open for a bit and that works before I shut it down. Are you sure you're not turning the damper for the cats prematurely (if the Mansfield has a damper - my stove does - sometimes I forget to open the stove direct to the flue and it just won't draw).

I think changing the 90 degree elbows for 45's would be a good move. I'd be super careful of using the ash door as air induction - you can easily overheat. And I'd check the chimney visually - even though you clean it yearly, things can get in the way (creosote, tile liner, birds!). I had a bat come down my stove once (you may want to ensure you haven't experienced anything like that!).

And Hearthstone in Morrisville, VT has great techs that will talk with owners! Give them a call!

Bill

 

[NYLuke]

Thanks again.. I'm going to change out the 90's in the pipe. I only went that way because my last stove was hooked up in the exact same fashion.

I read what Todd wrote, however I think I'm not seeing the correct setup for using 45's .

Right now ( as shown in the initial image) I have a 90 right turn out of my thimble reducer hooked to a 90 down then straight pipe into the top of the stove.

I think I can eliminate both 90's by using a 45 out of the thimble reducer and then use another 45 off the run from the top of the stove
Then would I just connect the two 45's with an angled run of straight pipe ( maybe?).
Is that the best way to do this? It seems like I'm missing something.

I also think part of my problem is that my cat probe might be off a little/not calibrated correctly.
The reason I say this is that I can only get secondaries when I'm near the top of the cat range. If I close the cat at any point in time before it's in the top 3/4 of the burn range before overtemp, the secondaries at the top of the firebox fail to ignite in any way and the fire weakens.

When I get the cat temp in that last quarter of the cat burn range near the over fire is the only time I can get a consistent secondary burn at the top of the fire box and keep a healthy fire. Is this something that happens? Should I be worried about it?


Another question, If I do end up going with a liner, why would I cap the bottom of the tee? Shouldn't that be left open for debris to fall when I brush the liner?


Thanks in advance,
Luke

 

[moresnow]

If you don’t cap the bottom of the T you will not develop correct draft.

 

[bholler]

Thanks again.. I'm going to change out the 90's in the pipe. I only went that way because my last stove was hooked up in the exact same fashion.

I read what Todd wrote, however I think I'm not seeing the correct setup for using 45's .

Right now ( as shown in the initial image) I have a 90 right turn out of my thimble reducer hooked to a 90 down then straight pipe into the top of the stove.

I think I can eliminate both 90's by using a 45 out of the thimble reducer and then use another 45 off the run from the top of the stove
Then would I just connect the two 45's with an angled run of straight pipe ( maybe?).
Is that the best way to do this? It seems like I'm missing something.

I also think part of my problem is that my cat probe might be off a little/not calibrated correctly.
The reason I say this is that I can only get secondaries when I'm near the top of the cat range. If I close the cat at any point in time before it's in the top 3/4 of the burn range before overtemp, the secondaries at the top of the firebox fail to ignite in any way and the fire weakens.

When I get the cat temp in that last quarter of the cat burn range near the over fire is the only time I can get a consistent secondary burn at the top of the fire box and keep a healthy fire. Is this something that happens? Should I be worried about it?


Another question, If I do end up going with a liner, why would I cap the bottom of the tee? Shouldn't that be left open for debris to fall when I brush the liner?


Thanks in advance,
Luke

You either need a tee cap or need to extend the liner down to the clesnout with a second tee

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Your idea with the 45s is correct.

 

[Kenfred]

A round stone 8” liner is better than a square one.

Round 6”. 28sq inches
Square 8x8 64 sq inches
Round 8” 50 sq inches

It still not ideal, but significantly smaller.

I think I’d fix the pipe outside the chimney first. All of those 90s really kill your draft. Then focus on learning the stove. Some people spend a season learning the new stove. 2-3 weeks isn’t enough time to expect to have mastered it by now. Your cat will run hot to begi with as it breaks in. I wouldn’t expect the stove to get as hot as the old cast iron stove did. It’s soapstone first, and is a cat stove. It’s going to specialize in running cool for long burn times. A little creosote in the firebox and soot is normal in these.

I believe a 8” square m

A round stone 8” liner is better than a square one.

Round 6”. 28sq inches
Square 8x8 64 sq inches
Round 8” 50 sq inches

It still not ideal, but significantly smaller.

I think I’d fix the pipe outside the chimney first. All of those 90s really kill your draft. Then focus on learning the stove. Some people spend a season learning the new stove. 2-3 weeks isn’t enough time to expect to have mastered it by now. Your cat will run hot to begin with as it breaks in. I wouldn’t expect the stove to get as hot as the old cast iron stove did. It’s soapstone first, and is a cat stove. It’s going to specialize in running cool for long burn times. A little creosote in the firebox and soot is normal in these.

a 8” square tile liner actually measures 6-7/8” on the inside.

 

[bholler]

I believe a 8” square m

a 8” square tile liner actually measures 6-7/8” on the inside.

Some are that small some are about 7.5 some are almost 8"

 

[Bill S]

Sorry for the late response. Couple of thoughts.
Before you venture into re-lining... looks like the reducer is right at the point of the chimney thimble which I think is good. Having the pipe start off with a straight might help the smoke leave the stove first. Definitely on the 45s.

It seems you are focused on the cat operation. That stove burns pretty darn clean without. After you get a good draft going, just nudge the primary a little closed (I go to half and that gets the secondary air going at a pretty good rate. Try making a fire with only a couple logs - not a full load and see if you can get a better burn that way - just to see. And you may be right about the cat thermo being off - it's easy to nudge and get wrong. Also, when you engage the cat and after running wide open - it does damp the fire, and then if you turn the primary down, it damps it even more - loooong burn and clean. I burn just under 4 cord, I clean my flue twice a year - I get about a quart of fine ash, zero creosote - dry hardwood only, of course.

Another thought - my two cats get clogged with "fly ash" (as they call it in the manual) - and I can tell when they need attention. I vacuum them probably every 3 - 4 weeks - it takes about 10 minutes. Big difference. But again, try it without worrying about the cat until you get things right. I would definitely get a visual on the cats before you try anything else.

I'm going to suggest something that goes against most of our experience. I moved my thermo from the pipe (always keeping it in the) clean burn position) to the stove top. Why? You can overheat soapstone with bad results! I keep it between 400 - 500 (max) stove top which often lowers the flue temp (gasp!) I repeat, "I burn just under 4 cord, I clean my flue twice a year - I get about a quart of fine ash (out of my 3 story chimney - external at that!), zero creosote - dry hardwood only, of course.

More than happy to talk - not sure if this forum allows DM...

Bill

 

[begreen]

The three 90º turns in the flue path are going to slow down draft a lot. It looks like this could be solved with a pair of 45º elbows and an offset with the bottom 45 starting after the first 12" piece of stovepipe on the stove. That should make a notable improvement.

 

[NYLuke]

Thanks all.. Just wanted to provide an update.
Tested my wood on new splits: pine was 10-14%, maple is 15-18% grey birch has the highest at 17-20%.
The pine burns so dirty.. I wont engage the cat. But I have so much of it.. maybe 3 cords stacked that are split 1-2 yrs and another 8 cords in stacked logs. Probably 50% of the trees on the property are pine and a few go down every year. I've got that and 3 cords of maple/birch for this year. Looking at what I am using right now.. I don't think I'm going to burn close to 6 cords this winter. We'll see.

The 45's I ordered just arrived.. Going to install this weekend. I've gotten into a regular pattern of burns.. Cat temps have remained just into the overfire range on most nights. I purchased a stove top thermometer and placed it next to the cat temp probe on the outside of the stove..(By trial and error, I found this to be the hottest part of the stove) The hottest it has read has been just under 400 degrees.. 380-390.. At this point the cat was engaged and cat temp was in the middle of the overfire, air flow was about half with a full firebox of maple. flue temp was 500.. I still haven't figured this out part. Thoughts??

I don't want to damage the stove, however it doesnt seem like I am over firing. Stove doesn't feel overly hot.. The place I bought it from has not been a lot of help. I tried calling Hearthstone and they no longer offer support to customer. A message plays that tells you to talk to your dealer. If I knew that I think I would have bought the F500.

However I will say I love the stability of the heat. and the fact that after 8 hrs I have great coals in the morning and also when I get home from work. Havent had to relight the stove in a week.. Open the cat and ash pan door. Rake up the coals and dump the ashes.. By the time I get back, coals are glowing and I'm able to stack a firebox. .. 5 min later, I close the ash pan door and we are back in business. 30 min later I engage the cat decrease the air and I'm good. House is 2800 sq ft and its staying anywhere 66-68.. Oil furnace is still shut off. Very different experience than with the Federal.. House temp is much more stable. 28 degree outside this morning and the first few inches of snow fell Interested to see how it performs when the temps drop more.

 

[kborndale]

Could the calibration of the cat thermometer be off? Not sure how you would check that but it's a possibility.

 

[begreen]

Pine is burned in a large percentage of wood stoves, cats and non cats out west and in the south. BK cat stoves come from Ponderosa Pine country. It's ok to burn as long as it's fully seasoned.

 

[Bill S]

It sure seems that the cat thermo is off. It's really easy to nudge those off kilter. Sorry you are not able to get some support direct from Hearthstone, I'd try again if it were me. Here in central VT we are fortunate to have The Chimney Sweep Shop (one in S. Burlington and my home store in Barre). Maybe a call to Peter in Barre would get you some information on the cat.

Sounds like otherwise, you're getting used to the stove. I don't fill mine up chock full but a few logs and she's good to go for a looong time. The Castleton I, though, is a pretty small stove compared to the Mansfield. It doesn't sound to me that you are over firing it either but you might experiment with a not chock full stove. Sounds too like you've got the draft thing moving in the right direction. Let us know how the 45s work out!

And I hear you that you've got a lot of pine. Hope you don't take offense, but around here "friends don't let friends burn pine." Maybe you could get it to someone with an outdoor furnace in exchange for some hard wood.

Glad you are enjoying the stored and steady heat of soapstone - nothing like it. And glad your fire is lasting so you can enjoy making one fire for many weeks or months!

 

[kborndale]

It sure seems that the cat thermo is off. It's really easy to nudge those off kilter. Sorry you are not able to get some support direct from Hearthstone, I'd try again if it were me. Here in central VT we are fortunate to have The Chimney Sweep Shop (one in S. Burlington and my home store in Barre). Maybe a call to Peter in Barre would get you some information on the cat.

Sounds like otherwise, you're getting used to the stove. I don't fill mine up chock full but a few logs and she's good to go for a looong time. The Castleton I, though, is a pretty small stove compared to the Mansfield. It doesn't sound to me that you are over firing it either but you might experiment with a not chock full stove. Sounds too like you've got the draft thing moving in the right direction. Let us know how the 45s work out!

And I hear you that you've got a lot of pine. Hope you don't take offense, but around here "friends don't let friends burn pine." Maybe you could get it to someone with an outdoor furnace in exchange for some hard wood.

Glad you are enjoying the stored and steady heat of soapstone - nothing like it. And glad your fire is lasting so you can enjoy making one fire for many weeks or months!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with burning pine. Just like hardwoods it needs to be dry. Pine causing excessive creosote is nothing but an old wives tail.

 

[Bill S]

Didn't mean to be mean. Given that NYLuke said his wood was dry, I was thinking more of how fast it burns, etc.

 

[rpwalton]

My first thought at the beginning of this thread about your fire dying and not being able to keep it going etc or not easy to start and all was that your air intake was blocked but I'm sure that's been checked... I recently read about somebody with a new stove, I forget what kind, they couldn't get it to work and they finally found there was a piece of duct tape over the air intake on the bottom of the stove.
At any rate we bought a Manchester last February and this thing has worked perfect for us from the get-go, puts out lots of heat. I've never seen the cat probe get to the over fire range, in fact it usually only gets about to the middle of the catalyst range or a little over the middle.
Our flue pipe is straight up through the ceiling and attic to the roof, total of maybe 13 and 1/2 or 14 ft, never had a draft problem yet. Getting rid of those 90s above your stove should help I would think.