Hearthstone Progress bee in bonnet

[John Lehet]

All triggered by a hearthstone heritage pre-cat coming up for sale locally. I hadn't even been thinking of a new stove. That's in this thread:

Post in thread 'Replace Jotul 3CB with used Hearthstone Heritage (non cat)?'

Sunday at 9:30 PM

Why sell the Jotul ASAP? Because it’s hard to control? Because modern stoves are better than the 3CB?

Also I think my flue is actually 6”! It’s pretty tall though. I don’t know exactly how tall it is, but I’ve been up to the top of it on a ladder (I used to clean it but my wife wants a pro, doesn’t want me up there). I get really heebie jeebie up that high, is how high it is, and I’ve spent a fair bit of time on high ladders!

The F3CB is a great little stove. The Heritage will provide longer burntime and a different, softer heat than the radiant heat. Perhaps the thought is that...

• begreen

I decided not to get the used Hearthstone Heritage.

So in all this I got looking around a bit, and it seems the Woodstock Progress is a stove everyone loves. I also hadn't realized Trump's "Big Beautiful Bill" is going to kill the tax credit for efficient stoves this December. I had always thought I had until 2032 to get a modern stove, but it seems the time is now. So in spite of finances being tight and having a decent if ancient stove (I rebuilt it maybe 6 or 7 years ago), I'm really thinking about the Progress to replace the Jotul 3CB. I'm going to call Woodstock today to talk to them. They are only about 25 minute drive from me, so I'm not sure if there could be some shipping delivery option that works. Maybe even a U haul with some kind of lift?

My house is funny. The room I'm heating is only 800 sq feet, an 1860s one room schoolhouse (with upstairs bedroom) and addition. with insulation as good as I can get but still not great. The house has an addition tacked onto it, but we hang out, cook, sleep in the 28 x 28 schoolhouse. Heat demand is not too outrageous until it is. When it gets cold, the addition on the house, which we also keep cooler, starts to really suck away the heat from the main room. At zero or below, heat demand increases more like exponentially than any kind of linear function. Vermont. The Jotul is pretty good, but it can get overfired. My wife doesn't always give serious woodstove attention, if she feeds it. We're used to a "get the tin can hot quick" style of wood heat, keeping the room cooler and then making a fire when we need it. In this way I only burn about a cord or cord and a half of dry hardwood per year. I'm not interested in burning more, and in fact at my age burning wood might not be viable for all that many years in the future. My wife already has arthritis in her wrists and other problems with her wrists.

So, advantages to the Woodstock Progress over the Jotul:
More durable
More heat output when we really need it
More efficient
New
Longer fire holding overnight could take some load off the mini split and save some electricity.
Probably less fiddly to operate. (I don't think my wife would be offended if I said she simply doesn't pay as much attention to the adjustments of the stove as I do, or as would be ideal. She'll put some logs in and get lost in her novel or walk away without thinking about it. Me, I'm almost always very conscious of what the stove is doing or needs, but I'm also just a human and get distracted sometimes. Still, I can't think of anyone I know personally who would be better at paying attention to it than I am. All of which is to say that sometimes if pretty rarely the Jotul takes off a bit, especially in really cold weather with a lot of coals and a strong draft.)

Disadvantages to Hearthstone Progress:
We already have the Jotul, and the Progress will be a pain to install at that weight
We are used to the Jotul and the heat-up-quick style of the iron stove
Progress would be slower to get warm when we wake up to a cool/cold room (or use more wood to keep the stove burning all night
(the mini-split is the back drop overnight, holding the room at some not too freezing temp until we wake up and get a fire going)
$$$ for stove purchase, but better deal before the Trump cuts kill that deal anyway
Cost to replace the Cat periodically
Ordering the Progress puts us prime sale period for offloading the Jotul

Two things the Progress seems to have going for it in spite of being a massive stove, from what I've read in forums: It can put out heat reasonably quickly because of the big glass, and it can really get going fast. So of all stone/massive stoves, it's not the worse by any means for our use pattern. Also it might change our use pattern by being better at a different style.

I'm a bit unclear on the Progress output. I've seen 80,000 BTU but I've also seen 47,xxx. At the latter number, it's barely more than the Jotul 3CB? In which case why upgrade? But I think it's also clear that at max output the Jotul is on the hairy edge of overfiring and getting damaged. When I rebuilt the Jotul it had clearly been overfired, but I got it used and I know the baffle had just been replaced when I bought it. (Baffle is still perfect now after over 10 years here). I don't know if the old stress only showed up when we had it or if we were responsible for the overfire damage. The inner iron on the Jotul was in pretty bad shape when I rebuilt it.

I'm hesitant to burn more wood to keep a fire going a bit overnight (impossible with the current Jotul here) but on the other hand not building a fire from scratch and kindling every morning seems like it would be nice.

As I mentioned in the other thread, we have a mini split for this downstairs room, a cold weather model, but it was intended as a shoulder season solution. I mean, it's practically free to run the heat pump at temps in the 40s, and not too bad down to freezing. Below that and we have to pound it harder and it can start to use some real electricity. Below zero it doesn't have enough heat on its own and uses lots of electricity. (We also have an oil boiler, which keeps the addition from freezing and powers up the rooms there when we use them. We can get some heat from the boiler into the schoolhouse of course, but like everyone on these forums, we'd rather not burn oil.) In Vermont we can in theory have stretches like 20 below, and that used to be extremely common. We used to have weeks where it barely got above zero. Oh man, I remember the 70s and 80s here, even the 90s, but we rarely have cold stretches like we used to. I mean, a week of zero-ish temps or below used to be extremely common and now it's more rare. But still possible. And even longer and colder stretches could still be possible, but I haven't seen it for a good handful of years now. All of which is to say that a stretch like that would be pretty rough on the Jotul, heat stress wise.

My woodshed holds about 2.5 or 3 cords I think, and the way I do is: it's filled by summer or fall, half of it is the really dry wood I didn't burn last winter, and half of it is new wood I'll burn not this winter but next. This works out. The less dry wood is in reserve. Some winters I'll tuck into that by spring, while some winters I don't even burn all the dry wood. But basically half the wood per winter. Burning more wood would mess up this system, and I'd be burning wood not as dry. So I don't want to "upgrade" and end up burning more wood. Not sure if the slightly less efficient tin can approach with heat-on-demand saves over the more efficient keep-it-warm approach. We're pretty thrifty with wood, light a fire for breakfast on a cold morning, let the stove go out, light it up again late afternoon for evening around the fire.

Thoughts from Progress (or Woodstock) owners appreciated!

 

[John Lehet]

So I called Woodstock, chatted with a very nice woman. She let me talk a lot and did a lot of “Hmm mmm. And “Yes” kind of discussion. The delivery option would be to get a local stove installer to do it. So I called the guy she told me about — River Valley Chimney. I asked if he wouldn’t mind geeking out about wood stoves, and he said, “I LOVE to geek out about wood stoves!” So we chatted for a long time. Super smart. He made it clear that the Progress was not a DIY proposition to set up.

He also thought the Progress might be maybe too much stove for an 800 sq ft room, but he agreed that it could also lope along at a lower level with the cat engaged. That it’s probably better at low and steady heat than the Jotul. He also thought the Woodstock Fireview might not be an optimal down grade, since it wouldn’t hold a fire overnight, so I’d be waking up to a lukewarm stove and have to build a fire on coals or from scratch.

I’m seriously considering the Progress. My main concern is that I’d burn more wood by keeping the stove going overnight (which would mean less electricity with the mini split, so not all bad). My main concern is throwing off my half-dry woodshed method if I start using more. He also thought it might be possible I’d use LESS wood with the more efficient stove and Cat and all. So still a little muddled.

I’ll bring my wife over to the Woodstock shop (very local) probably, unless she flat out says it’s crazy to spend so much $$ on a stove right now. Which I wouldn’t argue with.

Still would appreciate thoughts from experienced ones here.

 

[Todd]

I think the Progress will be too much stove and would consider the Fireview over it. I’m heating a 600 sq ft log cabin with 200 sq ft loft with the Fireview on mostly a 12 hour reloading schedule. That’s loading 5 splits in the morning and another 5 in the evening. It will definitely hold a fire overnight with good wood. Burning it at the lower setting gives me plenty of heat and always have enough coals for relight.

They also have the Absolute Steel stove that is a little larger firebox than the Fireview and can easily burn 12 hours. Price is cheaper as well.

Also be aware that tax credit doesn’t apply to everyone. Make sure you qualify for it.

You’re lucky you live so close to Woodstock. Definitely take a trip there and talk to them. Also give them a layout info and some pictures of your place. I’m sure they can help you out.

 

[John Lehet]

The Fireview has a very similar range to our current Jotul 3CB though? The Jotul is good 90% of the time, but then at the edge we are definitely pushing it, which is the point of upgrading. I don’t want to over fire the Jotul, and I’m afraid we do sometimes. Also, when it’s not really cold, we use the mini split, so we won’t be firing the stove unless it’s pretty cold. Thanks for your opinion. Confusing…

What are the disqualifications for the tax credit? A quick web search and I couldn’t find any. I asked the woman at Woodstock, and she didn’t say there were situations where it didn’t apply, just an unqualified “Yes, there is a 30% tax rebate.” But then, she wants to sell me a stove…

 

[Todd]

I don’t think the 3CB fire box isn’t much over 1 cu ft the Fireview is close to 2 cu ft. It holds almost twice the BTU’s with a full load and is also more efficient. The Progress is close to 3 cu ft firebox. You have to be careful looking at the manufactures BTU ratings and read the fine print. Better to look at firebox volume.

I believe the tax credit is only credited to taxes owed at the end of the year. So if you get a Fed refund you don’t automatically get an extra 30% added to your refund. I’m no tax expert and could be wrong though.

 

[John Lehet]

Ah, all interesting. I don't know about this tax credit, but we did get an energy efficiency credit for the Mini Splits, and I think we got that even though we get a refund. I'm trying to remember if that was federal or just state, but I think I remember federal as well as state. Based on the way my wife's employer withholds we always get some refund. I'll see if the Woodstock people can give more detail when we see them.

The Fireview is available used on Craigslist around here, but never the Progress. I suppose I could pick up a used one of those. Or maybe just keep the Jotul after all. But any soapstone stove will be hard to just pick up from Craigslist.
I think clearly getting a high capacity non catalytic stove in here would be asking for trouble, but it seems if we can engage the cat then we can run it low-ish? And I've heard these cats on these stoves fire pretty easily (unlike Hearthstones?). But it's all just reading forums here. I've personally burned only non catalytic stoves for about 25 years, and they've tended to be too small. I've had clean chimneys, always, but have had some damaged iron internals.

I had a catalytic Dutchwest stove about 30 years ago, and that was great, but we needed every BTU we could get out of it in that windtrap that year. Man that was a cold house. Then I had a VT Castings Intrepid in a well insulated house, and oh man that stove sucked. Worst stove I've ever had. I swore never to get a catalytic stove again. But I'm thinking in this situation a catalytic stove would give us a bigger range of heat possibility. And it seems these Woodstock stoves are actually good with catalysts.

This schoolhouse is 28 x 28 (with a bedroom upstairs) but a LOT of windows in the downstairs. Also the downstairs is connected to a not very heated addition. In real cold, that addition starts really sucking heat out of this space. As I said, we run the mini split if it's not really cold, so I think by the time we ever light the stove we'll be in its range? But I sure don't know, and that's why I'm asking.

For the oil heat in here, it has never been able to keep up in spite of a hot water pipe and radiator running all around the room, about every wall where it could fit. That's why we need to burn wood. (And I don't like to burn oil so I burn as little as possible). One time I had an oil heat guy out here and he measured everything and the windows and said, "no way you've got, or can fit, enough radiator in this room to heat it." And in fact, no way the oil heat can keep up in here when it's cold. Previous owners had a woodstove to supplement and then a propane stove. We've been here 17 years now. We retrofitted and did everything we could. Man, that first winter in here was impressively cold. It got much better after we did all the insulating we could, but still, it's a challenge to heat when really cold. The Jotul can do it, but barely.

Before I got this Jotul I had moved a Waterford Leprechaun from my old place. That stove was kind of like a Jotul 602, which I also have owned at times. That Waterford Leprechaun? We melted it.

 

[Todd]

Catalysts have come a long way recently and Woodstock has one of the best imo. The Fireview and the Progress have very easy access to the cat for routine cat maintenance, just lift the top lid.

The VC stoves have always been finicky to run due to there down draft design and it can be really hard on a catalyst.

Last Winter I came across a Fireview on FB Marketplace for cheap and ended up grabbing it. Ended up rebuilding it from the ground up. All parts were available from Woodstock as well as instructions and help. It’s now in its former glory heating my cabin. I also ran one in a previous home along with a Keystone. I could get that place up to 90 if I wanted to even in below zero weather.

You probably already tried this but plastic on those windows and chasing leaks with caulk can help greatly.

 

[begreen]

This is not comparing apples to apples. The Progress is too much of a heater for what has been described. It's overkill for the small space being heated.

 

[John Lehet]

OK, seems to be a consensus. I might talk to them at Woodstock anyway to see what they say. Before I logged on I was thinking how the 15k mini split, which really is supposed to deliver 15k at 0F, has so much trouble keeping it 68 down here when it’s cold. It’s the tricky balance between having enough stove when it’s 0 and below and not having too much stove the rest of the winter.

 

[John Lehet]

Also might be relevant that the ceiling in here is at about 12 feet. So the room does have more volume than a typical 28 x 28. The ceiling is also tongue and groove wood. There is some plywood between the ceiling and floor above but also a lot of permeability. Last spring, not even winter, I was messing about in the closet and found a plenum with air absolutely rushing like a chimney, coming up from the downstairs into the upstairs space.

 

[begreen]

OK, seems to be a consensus. I might talk to them at Woodstock anyway to see what they say. Before I logged on I was thinking how the 15k mini split, which really is supposed to deliver 15k at 0F, has so much trouble keeping it 68 down here when it’s cold. It’s the tricky balance between having enough stove when it’s 0 and below and not having too much stove the rest of the winter.

It sounds like the heat loss is serious. This could be due to leakage, insulation gaps, a lot of single-pane glazing, etc. Given the age of the building, it may be all of the above. An energy audit and blower door test could be a good investment. Check to see if your govt. or electric company has programs for this. Getting these issues addressed often will have the highest ROI.

 

[John Lehet]

Oh, we’ve done so much energy updates. Still, it’s an 1860s building in Vermont. Only so much you can do. We spray foamed the crawl space and the sort-of basement under the addition, put bales and bales of cellulose in the roof and any gap we could find, blower door tests, all of it. The guys were here so long retrofitting it got so I was about to invite them to my kid’s graduation. I even had them come back and try to put cellulose in the walls but they were not taking it, and we gave up. (In that session though we did find a huge gap where the exterior wall was directly connected (without insulation or barrier) to the space under a staircase. It had always been freezing around that staircase. We just blew and blew with cellulose filled that space right up. They were brilliant at finding issues I could go into great detail about that made a huge difference. And I myself have a Flir camera and try to keep an eye out for issues. Still, short of tearing the whole place down, we’re not going to superinsulate it. I mean, sometimes I find antique square nails when I’m painting or replacing trim, or huge weird gaps and plenums, and there are surely more to find.


I actually built and lived in a superinsulated house for about 15 years, the one I built the masonry stove in. I heated that place with a half cord of poplar in a bad winter. Oh well, I’m not there anymore. That place was perfect for the masonry stove. I had to judge how much heat we were going to need and load the stove accordingly, one fire per day, or skip a day if it’s sunny. A big thermal flywheel, and I had to give it a nudge most days. This place is… different.

This place is not terrible, as it was when we moved in. It was so cold in here the first winter! Some old Vermont buildings are just amazingly freezing. We got it better. But we definitely need some serious heat when we get real Vermont cold in this 1860s building, and I know that well, is all I’m saying. I think whatever flaws there are become a bigger liability, out of proportion, as it gets really cold, and that’s why I worry about melting the Jotul.

 

[begreen]

Something in the ~2 cu ft range sounds appropriate. The Heritage would be a notable step larger than the Jotul F3CB in fuel load and heating capacity. It's about a 100% increase. The Progress would be a tripling of capacity and much higher heat output.

 

[Highbeam]

Woodstock has some durable and high performance stoves at good prices. All are pretty small though, largest is 3.2 CF. Be sure to look at their steel stoves. Soapstone is pretty but not a great material for a stove since it takes so long to heat up. Also cracks, seams, and weight.

 

[John Lehet]

Yeah, I’ll have to talk to them at Woodstock, see if they talk me into or out of it. Or if I go for a different stove of theirs. Apparently they are hobbled by the tariffs and unable to make some of their stoves right now. I think they are able to produce three stoves in their line right now.

It does seem 100% more heat is overkill! The Jotul can heat this place. I just worry about its durability while doing it. Unless the progress is also comfortable loping along at less than its full output. We never say, “It’s cold in here even with the stove running for a while.” We do say, “Yikes that stove is hot!”

 

[begreen]

Yeah, I’ll have to talk to them at Woodstock, see if they talk me into or out of it. Or if I go for a different stove of theirs. Apparently they are hobbled by the tariffs and unable to make some of their stoves right now. I think they are able to produce three stoves in their line right now.

It does seem 100% more heat is overkill! The Jotul can heat this place. I just worry about its durability while doing it. Unless the progress is also comfortable loping along at less than its full output. We never say, “It’s cold in here even with the stove running for a while.” We do say, “Yikes that stove is hot!”

I think the Fireview is a better fit in their line if you are ok with that look. It has quite a low output bottom end.

 

[Todd]

Yeah, I’ll have to talk to them at Woodstock, see if they talk me into or out of it. Or if I go for a different stove of theirs. Apparently they are hobbled by the tariffs and unable to make some of their stoves right now. I think they are able to produce three stoves in their line right now.

It does seem 100% more heat is overkill! The Jotul can heat this place. I just worry about its durability while doing it. Unless the progress is also comfortable loping along at less than its full output. We never say, “It’s cold in here even with the stove running for a while.” We do say, “Yikes that stove is hot!”

Not sure why tariffs would keep them from producing their stoves? They will lose a lot of money this fall if they wait too long to start filling orders. Do you know which stoves aren’t available?

Fireview or Absolute Steel would be a good fit imo. I wouldn’t be surprised if a Keystone/Palladian would work but I think it would be safer to go with a bit larger stove.

 

[John Lehet]

Cheaper too, and I actually do like the look, at least I think so. For the Progress I like the swappable ash box, vs no ash tray at all in the Fireviewl? I do like it in the Jotul that the ashes fall into the tray, and there are almost never any really hot coals in there

It's hard to imagine being worried about the bottom end being too high, but I haven't lived with a Cat stove for 30 years (and in that house it was never anything like too warm). With the Jotul we have never ever smoldered it or thought it was putting out too much heat. Sometimes when it warms up during a day we'll let it go out and use the mini split instead, to save wood.

 

[John Lehet]

On their site, besides the Fireview, Progress, and one of the steel stoves, all others are marked as “Out of Stock.” So it’s just those three they can do, I think. I’ll find out more tomorrow if I go there.. There are various articles I’ve just found about the tariff situation and their stoves. Easy to find those articles, NH papers and TV station. I think the uncertainty has meant that they haven’t been importing some of the castings and various materials. Besides that and the sudden tax credit end, they are expecting later winter and ‘26 to be really bad and they expect to do layoffs. In fact it makes me wonder whether to go with any American company, which could go out of business on account of these shifts.

 

[John Lehet]

I spent an hour at Woodstock Stove today and put down a deposit for a Progress. The woman I was talking to wasn't worried at all about it being too much stove and cooking us out. She said, "It seems like you know how to burn wood!" The progress seemed like a more sophisticated stove. Yes, the firebox is huge. But I don't need to fill it all the way up. The hot swappable ash box is a big plus in my book. Also like the way it looks.

It turns out they are only working with three stoves because of approvals. Yes, the tarifs are messing up their business plan, badly. But it's because of waiting on EPA approvals for a different burn method -- that is what is holding up the manufacture of the rest of the line. Really, of the stoves they are actually selling, the Progress is the one I'd want.

 

[Todd]

Congrats! Let us know how it works out. Take pictures.

 

[Todd]

I’ve thought about installing a Progress in my small cabin thinking most of the shoulder seasons I could just load it up once per day and burn it low and slow and let that 700lbs of thermal mass radiate the heat similar to a masonry heater. The only difference would be how it’s fired compared to a masonry heater but maybe the heat feel would be similar? May even have coals left over after 24 hours for relight?

Right now with my Fireview I can get away with one firing when we have highs in the mid 40’s and above. 12 hour reloads as it gets colder. With a good bed of ash I have seen a few coals after 24 hours but not enough to just throw more wood in.

 

[Highbeam]

They recently redesigned the intake system on the PH so old threads about lack of low burn rate may be invalid. They apparently tried to give the operator as much control as the IS model which was quite good.

The PH is only 2.8 cubic feet. Smaller than a princess.

 

[John Lehet]

Chatting with the young woman there in their showroom, she didn’t think there would be any difference in the low end burn between the Progress and the Fireview. I had talked to a different woman on the phone a few days before. Neither of them were discouraging about it being too much stove, at all. Grain of salt, as they are sales people.

I also talked to an installer who loves these stoves, explaining my situation. He also didn’t try to talk me out of the Progress, but was more like, “That is such a great stove.”

He did however caution me that delivery date might slide a bit, and I shouldn’t count on anything. So he’s not a total Woodstock fanboy. (Apparently he has two of their stoves himself). He told me not to sell the Jotul before heating season.

Basically at the low end you are just feeding the cat smoke, and the range of air intake goes pretty low, I guess. I do not say that from experience! But like I say, nobody there tried to talk me out of it.

Compared to a real masonry stove (I had one that was 3500 pounds of soapstone for a decade), this is a little toy as far as mass goes, but overall the mass it has probably gets a lot hotter than the masonry stove got overall. If a lot of the soapstone is something like 500 degrees, that’s way different from my old masonry stove at probably 120 to 150 degrees overall. Also, it is something. I also figure I’ll probably make short fires sometimes and let it go out and coast with that mass. The saleswoman did not dissuade me from this notion.