Heat Storage....Finally...!!!

jpelizza Posted By jpelizza, Feb 3, 2018 at 7:56 PM

  1. jpelizza

    jpelizza
    Member 2.
    NULL
    

    Jan 2, 2010
    56
    3
    Loc:
    Upstate NY
    After 6+ years of heating with my 150K Econoburn I'm finally getting storage bank!!!!!!! Can't wait till its all hooked and running.......been wanting this for LOOOOOOOONG TIME!!!

    I've been through lots of options on how to do it. I've settled on ordering 1100 gallon unpressurized 88"x88", 54" tall from americansolartechnics.com known on here as tom from Maine...

    I'm putting it in my finished basement in a room that kicks out 12x16.

    I'm just planning on running 1 1/4 pex from my heat bank to primary loop in utility room. I have radiant heat. I'm thinking of putting one circulator that will run automatically at 90 degrees or more. having two shut offs one for supply and one return by primary loop.

    wondering how I get temp readings easily so I know what heat storage is an when I need another fire...

    also any ideas how to tie into heat for pool as well.

    tom helping get this all straight too but will take any ideas so I don't miss any thing...

    thanks...
     
  2. peakbagger

    peakbagger
    Minister of Fire 2.
    NULL
    

    Jul 11, 2008
    3,543
    874
    Loc:
    Northern NH
    I have had a smaller AST tank for several years. One suggestion is to put dricore under the base insulation https://www.homedepot.com/p/DRIcore-7-8-in-x-2-ft-x-2-ft-DRIcore-Subfloor-Panel-CDGNUS750024024/202268752. This prevents any possibility of water pooling underneath the base. I put the base foam right on top of it.

    Temp readings are easy. RTD type temperature readouts are cheap, you can mount RTDs in the foam making sure that its taped over before you put the liner in. Tom supplies a copper cap to put on top of the vent pipe. I put a slice in mine and have an aquatrol bulb hung down the vent pipe and also a type K thermocouple stuck down next to it. The only important temp you need is the top of the tank temp as the rest of the tank stratifies.

    Tom warns you that the top of the tank can not be used for storage yet there is quite a bit of space above it. I built a set of wooden frames that are attached to the floor rafters above it and then have a removable deck that lays across the supports. I had to replace a liner at one point after it was in place and with the decking removed it didnt get in the way.
     
    Marshy likes this.
  3. warno

    warno
    Minister of Fire 2.
    NULL
    

    Jan 3, 2015
    1,067
    287
    Loc:
    illinois
    To answer the temperature reading question, I went with some cheap temp display units from eBay. They were discussed here in a thread not that long ago. Here's the thread

    Here's a pic of mine.

    20171203_181403_1512346505272_001.jpg
     
    Marshy likes this.
  4. jpelizza

    jpelizza
    Member 2.
    NULL
    

    Jan 2, 2010
    56
    3
    Loc:
    Upstate NY

    Tom did tell me to put 1" foam under heat bank when I asked him, I like what you sent me link on I'll do that, thanks!
    looks like I can get a few temps by looking at what you did and that thread from other post here...

    I do want one I can know what it is without going into my basement so either wireless if possible or maybe I can get a baby monitor with screen looking at a read out or something...
     
  5. jpelizza

    jpelizza
    Member 2.
    NULL
    

    Jan 2, 2010
    56
    3
    Loc:
    Upstate NY

    thanks!, looks great!, I'll look at that thread...
     
    warno likes this.
  6. Marshy

    Marshy
    Minister of Fire 2.
    NULL
    

    Dec 29, 2016
    674
    185
    Loc:
    NY
  7. BoiledOver

    BoiledOver
    Minister of Fire 2.
    NULL
    

    Apr 14, 2013
    518
    176
    Loc:
    43°58'55 N - 85°20' W
    Congrats on your storage install, you will enjoy it for sure.

    Having more than one temp sensor in storage has benefits. I might have gone overboard but am happy to have all five inputs to determine the fire loads. The five are located at; the very bottom of the first tank (the zero gallon mark), midway up the first tank (the 250 gallon mark), on top of the first tank (500 gallon mark), midway up the second tank (750 gallon Mark), and on the top of the second tank (1,000 gallon mark). The tanks are 500 gallon propane units. This input allows for a very close account of how many btu's are stored and how many pounds of firewood is needed to get to a target amount of btu's in storage.

    Boiiler.jpg
     
  8. peakbagger

    peakbagger
    Minister of Fire 2.
    NULL
    

    Jul 11, 2008
    3,543
    874
    Loc:
    Northern NH
    I had some spare thermocouples so I mounted them in the tank when I installed the liner. They just terminate with thermocouple plugs on the outside. I have looked at the numbers in the past but came to the conclusion with a single square tank its going to stratify and I am not going to be able to change that unless I circulate the liquid in the tank. Maybe it makes sense for multiple tanks but not really important with an single tank. I realize some folks like to over instrument these systems, but the best approach is KISS (keep it simple stupid).
     
  9. tom in maine

    tom in maine
    Minister of Fire 2.
    NULL
    

    Apr 4, 2008
    912
    134
    Loc:
    Searsport, Maine
    One minor suggestion about what goes underneath one of our tanks.
    Nothing wrong with something like Dricore, except if there is any dribbling from a fitting or condensation, over time, the OSB is going to fail.
    Probably not a big issue, but if you want a drainage plane under the tank, use just the plastic part of the Dricore or get similar material, which is just the plastic (I cannot remember the product name!)

    Sitting directly on Styrofoam is still going to allow any wetness to go around it onto a concrete floor.
    Here at our shop, where we have a test tank that is not sealed, there are no issues sitting on foam on the floor.

    No big deal either way, I am just apprehensive about anything that can decay due to wetness or the general humidity in the basement that cannot be easily dissipated.
     
  10. NateB

    NateB
    Burning Hunk 2.
    NULL
    

    Mar 5, 2013
    232
    66
    Loc:
    South Central Pennsylvania
    This is what I used to get heat out of the tank and into the house.
    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-L6006C1018-High-or-Low-Limit-Circulator-Strap-On-Aquastat-65-200F-range-5-30F-Adj-Differential-1738000-p

    This is what I use to put heat into the tank. It has 2 sensors. I put one half way down the side of the tank, and the other sensor I put on the primary loop before the tank tees.
    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Tekmar-156-Difference-Setpoint-Control-On-Off-7954000-p

    I can give more details if you need.

    I put the one inch of foam under my tank, and since it is in 2 pieces, I would see water coming out of the crack first if I had a leak.
     
  11. peakbagger

    peakbagger
    Minister of Fire 2.
    NULL
    

    Jul 11, 2008
    3,543
    874
    Loc:
    Northern NH
    Without going into details on the cause I got to see tank leaks in person twice on my installation and am glad I had a way of insuring that the air flow could dry the space under the tank.
     
  12. tom in maine

    tom in maine
    Minister of Fire 2.
    NULL
    

    Apr 4, 2008
    912
    134
    Loc:
    Searsport, Maine
    To try to put this in perspective. If one of our tanks is wet on the bottom from a wet floor, a leak or condensation from another source,
    the tank will dry itself once the issue is gone. A wet tank dries once heat is back in the tank.
    Installing one of our tanks directly on a concrete floor is okay if the floor is dry. If it is damp or wet, there could be some corrosion on the framework.
    1" of styrofoam on the floor, to segregate the tank frame from the concrete is prudent.
    This being said, I have yet to see any failures due to the tank bearing directly on concrete.

    With a layer of foam or a simple poly sheet under the tank protects the base in case some moisture finds it way to the bottom, the corrosion is not exacerbated by wet concrete in contact with metal.

    The air space is not critical, but is not a bad idea, for any metal on damp surfaces.
     
  13. jpelizza

    jpelizza
    Member 2.
    NULL
    

    Jan 2, 2010
    56
    3
    Loc:
    Upstate NY
    thanks I'm checking all that out!
     
  14. jpelizza

    jpelizza
    Member 2.
    NULL
    

    Jan 2, 2010
    56
    3
    Loc:
    Upstate NY
    Ok trying to figure this out.

    Have radiant heat so temps down to 90-100 during day heating , 115-125 nighttime heating..

    Planning on running 1 1/4 pex from AST tank to primary loop in utility room...

    I'm not sure on this part ... put a 90 degree circulator (its on anytime temp over 90 degrees) on the supply or return to tank near primary loop connection...???

    Thought Is run boiler to charge up tank to 180..., turn boiler off, circulator runs heat from AST to primary loop as long as heat above 90 degrees...

    Am I close...?

    Also want to add another supply/return from primary loop to pool pump area to heat pool in may early June...
     

    Attached Files:

  15. jpelizza

    jpelizza
    Member 2.
    NULL
    

    Jan 2, 2010
    56
    3
    Loc:
    Upstate NY
    so does the acua stat then you set at what temp you want it to turn on circulator then??
     
  16. peakbagger

    peakbagger
    Minister of Fire 2.
    NULL
    

    Jul 11, 2008
    3,543
    874
    Loc:
    Northern NH
    I run my storage up to 185 F and then run the water from the heated water from the coil to the radiators when the zone thermostats call for heat until the temp out of the storage drops below 140 F. I have conventional baseboard so Its heating capacity drops quickly after that. Once the storage is below 140 F the tank coil is taken out of the loop. My oil boiler has a lockout relay on the burner so when the storage temp goes below 140, the oil burner turns on and the system becomes a regular run of the mill oil fired hydronic system that any burner tech can diagnose. If I turn the power off to the wood boiler, it also reverts back to an oil system. This complicates the controls a bit as I need to use relays and spring loaded valves to get everything to revert back to a regular oil system. A PLC would be easier but I dont use them as I have past experience with old PLCs and the loss of the ability to program them due to software compatibility.
     
  17. jpelizza

    jpelizza
    Member 2.
    NULL
    

    Jan 2, 2010
    56
    3
    Loc:
    Upstate NY
    I plan to turn propane back up off once I start to burn especially having heat bank..., so I just want simple... do they make circulator that will just pump to primary loop from heat bank above 90 degress...?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  18. jpelizza

    jpelizza
    Member 2.
    NULL
    

    Jan 2, 2010
    56
    3
    Loc:
    Upstate NY
    Ok looks like that Tekmar I understand a little, I have a Tekmar that runs my radiant heat but looks like this one I hook into circulator that is on heat bank to primary loop, then I would just set it to run at 90+ degrees....right?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     

Share This Page