Help making a decision please.

[1870farmhouse]

So I’ve made a couple new posts seeking help replacing the damper housing in the VC encore 1450 non-cat stove I got for $250.

In the process of breaking down the stove to prepare to install new damper is seems the upper fiberboard of the fountain assembly that is directly behind where the damper sits is completely gone.

I have emailed VC support via email yesterday(turkey eve) about if this is a safety concern or operational concern or both. If it’s just an operational quality concern I’ll run it this winter and replace it during the summer as it’s $900 price is a shocker considering I just bought the $430 damper assembly.

My question is, it seems these encore dampers warp with any overfiring and these fiberboard fountain assemblies and refractories don’t last long.
I am looking at steel stoves and used stoves on Facebook marketplace. A new steel stove at tractor supply that does 1600-2000sf(my house is 1150sf) is $650. I’m thinking I just bought a $450 damper assembly and gonna need a $900 part. I could buy 2 of those $650 stoves for that price.

I also found a soapstone Hearthstone for $1100 it’s built in 1990 but it seems it doesn’t have the refractory fiberboard stuff my encore has.

I guess I’m asking if all cast iron stoves have this refractory stuff? It seems many people aren’t fans of the encore calling the ever-burn the never-burn.

Are there cast iron or steel stoves that are simpler that don’t have this ceramic/fiberboard refractory/fountain assembly stuff and just metal?

I’m ignorant about stoves I’ll admit but at this point I can return the $430 damper and sell the encore for easily what I paid for it $250. And I’m back to square 1 and possibly get a new stove or the right used cast iron stove. At $650 a new Grand Teton T100 sounds pretty good and if it lasts 5-6 years it’s only a $100 a year loss which isn’t bad considering I get all my firewood for free.
Reading up on steel stoves it seems the cons are fast to get hot but fast to cool down. But do they radiate as well when burning as cast iron? Can a T100 burn 6-8 hours through the night on a slow burn?
At $250 the encore in its beautiful midnight blue could be out in another room just as a decoration.

My encore isn’t a catalytic so is there a term for stoves with/with out the refractory stuff as it seems some cast iron stoves look pretty basic with metal fireboxes and 1-2 damper controls.
Photos below are the T100 that got my attention and a hearthstone soapstone cast iron for $1100 and the firebox photos that made me curious what the term was for stoves with or without the refractory stuff. I’m guessing the refractory stuff was the first step in improving burn times, maybe the second step was the catalytic stuff. I don’t know but willing to learn.

Oh, I got on my roof and measured my flue pipe to order an insulated liner and it’s 6.75”x11” can anyone tell me if insulated liners compress at all? I’m thinking an 8” liner would fit easily if slightly compressed.
Happy thanks giving.

 

[begreen]

The refractory breaking down is likely the cause of bypass warpage. It's unfortunate that this part is completely out of site and therefore out of mind for many. The stove likely needs a full rebuild at this point.

I would caution against trying to get the cheapest stove possible. It may cost you a lot more over time. That said, the Tractor Supply price for the Grand Teton is a good deal if they have it in stock. It will get you heating quickly as long as the wood is well seasoned. The Grand Teton is a Cleveland Iron Works (Enerco) stove also sold under the Master Forge brand at Lowes.

 

[1870farmhouse]

The refractory breaking down is likely the cause of bypass warpage. It's unfortunate that this part is completely out of site and therefore out of mind for many. The stove likely needs a full rebuild at this point.

I would caution against trying to get the cheapest stove possible. It may cost you a lot more over time. That said, the Tractor Supply price for the Grand Teton is a good deal if they have it in stock. It will get you heating quickly as long as the wood is well seasoned. The Grand Teton is a Cleveland Iron Works (Enerco) stove also sold under the Master Forge brand at Lowes.

What is bypass warping?

A full rebuild in parts is 1700 the Teton T100 is $650 new an I’m 1 mile away from the Delaware state line so I can. Get it with no taxes.

Any thoughts about the hearthstone soapstone stove?

Can you tell me if there is a terminology for stoves with just metal interior parts like what the hearthstone seems to be and my encore with this fiberboard material refractory?

I’m not seeking the cheapest stove just started searching new stoves for my square footage and I went down the steel stove rabbit hole.
I understand you are busy as a moderator but any help would be really helpful. My 90 year old grandfather lives with me and he prefers fire heat and I’m trying to make him happy and be less/not reliant on natural gas for my heat if I choose.

 

[begreen]

Any thoughts about the hearthstone soapstone stove?

It will burn more wood and may need some repair work, especially if some of the stones are cracked and the frame cement is starting to leak air. It sounds like you don't need a project, the need for heat now is more important.

I'm not sure, but I suspect the Grand Teton is made abroad in China. That doesn't mean it's junk. I haven't burned in one, so all I can do is comment on the general design which is a conventional, secondary tube stove. At $650 it's probably a good first stove. A bit more costly solution with a good track record would be a Drolet Deco Nano or Spark, or a True North TN20. Up from that in the 2 cu ft range are the Pacific Energy Super, Drolet Escape 1800, Regency 2450M, Lopi Endeavor, etc.

 

[1870farmhouse]

It will burn more wood and may need some repair work, especially if some of the stones are cracked and the frame cement is starting to leak air. It sounds like you don't need a project, the need for heat now is more important.

I'm not sure, but I suspect the Grand Teton is made abroad in China. That doesn't mean it's junk. I haven't burned in one, so all I can do is comment on the general design which is a conventional, secondary tube stove. At $650 it's probably a good first stove. A bit more costly solution with a good track record would be a Drolet Deco Nano or Spark, or a True North TN20. Up from that in the 2 cu ft range are the Pacific Energy Super, Drolet Escape 1800, Regency 2450M, Lopi Endeavor, etc.

So there are wood stoves that do and do not have this refractory material? There are modern wood stoves with just brick and metal interiors?

 

[begreen]

Most do not have the inner refractory combustion package these days. VC has doggedly held on to this design while others dropped it years ago. Refractory is still used in some stoves in place of firebrick. This is more common in some European designs and in fireplaces. Some stoves use ceramic cast refractory baffles, but that is not a liability. They are visible and easily replaced if cracked or broken. Some less expensive stove use vermiculite board for the baffle material which is fine as long as one doesn't bump it frequently when trying to pack the stove with wood. Pacific Energy uses a unique stainless steel baffle with a lower compartment that houses the secondary air feed.

 

[1870farmhouse]

Most do not have the inner refractory combustion package these days. VC has doggedly held on to this design while others dropped it years ago. Refractory is still used in some stoves in place of firebrick. This is more common in some European designs and in fireplaces. Some stoves use ceramic cast refractory baffles, but that is not a liability. They are visible and easily replaced if cracked or broken. Some less expensive stove use vermiculite board for the baffle material which is fine as long as one doesn't bump it frequently when trying to pack the stove with wood. Pacific Energy uses a unique stainless steel baffle with a lower compartment that houses the secondary air feed.

So the soapstone stove I mentioned is a traditional stove?
Is there a term/wording for traditional stoves or that have this refractory?

 

[begreen]

So the soapstone stove I mentioned is a traditional stove?
Is there a term/wording for traditional stoves or that have this refractory?

It is, and possibly pre-EPA with basic or no secondary combustion. Again with the caveat that a stove of that age is likely due for a rebuild.

Here are basic side-view illustrations of wood stove secondary combustion designs that are typically found today. Hybrid stoves combine both.

 

[John Lehet]

Older Jotul stoves are pure iron, no brick or refractory material. In my stove’s case the baffle is stainless steel, but the rest is iron. Which is not to say it will last forever or never get damaged by overfiring. Pretty durable though. Not sure about current Jotul stoves, though most have some kind of catalyst added. I think they still favor a lot of iron.

If you can find a used Jotul 3 CB or F400 it will burn clean and relatively efficiently (pretty close to a current EPA stove) and put out a lot of heat when you need it. Only downside is that it won’t hold a fire for very long at all. If you find one of these, just look that none of the interior parts are cracked and the baffle isn’t melted/broken etc. More efficient than that VC you are taking apart. Should be between $900 and $1500. Just one option I’m familiar with. Good looking, too.

 

[GG Woody]

I’m thinking an 8” liner would fit easily if slightly compressed.

Just from my personal experience, an 8" liner won't fit easily, it will be a real struggle. I have never had a liner go "easily", and that scenario sounds more difficult than others that I have tackled.
Why an 8" liner? Most stoves are a 6" outlet?

 

[begreen]

Why an 8" liner? Most stoves are a 6" outlet?

An insulated 6" liner is definitely preferable and appropriate for any of the stoves mentioned so far.

 

[1870farmhouse]

Just from my personal experience, an 8" liner won't fit easily, it will be a real struggle. I have never had a liner go "easily", and that scenario sounds more difficult than others that I have tackled.
Why an 8" liner? Most stoves are a 6" outlet?

My encore has a 10” oval to 8” adapter from VC.
From what I’ve seen it looks like 50/50 have 6 or 8” outlets but maybe im wrong.
Doesn’t matter cause I’ve decided to return the damper assembly back to mountain view and either buy a brand new steel stove from tractor supply for $650 that has a 1600-2000sf rating or a used cast iron stove in the nearby price range.

When preparing to do the damper removal I found that the fountain assembly needs to be replaced and that part is $900. So $250 for the stove, $430 for damper $900 fountain is $1580 total and could buy 2.4 $650 stoves for that price. Or 1 $650 stove and $450 for 20’ of 6” insulated chimney liner for $1100 total and save $400.
If this steel stove lasted only 6 years that’s $108 a year which is a price I’m willing to pay.

I should be able to sell my encore for $350-400 so that should pretty much pay for the liner and flue cap.
So the 6” liner shouldn’t be too much an issue going in a 6.75”x11” flue

An insulated 6" liner is definitely preferable and appropriate for any of the stoves mentioned so far.

hey green, so I found a Lopi Sheffield. It looks to be a stove without the expensive refractory stuff but cast iron. It’s for sale of friends of friends. It’s a 2001 model but was installed and never used until
2017 and only as secondary heat/looks since 2017 so light use.
They were asking $800 but accepted my offer of $600 since I’m friends with their friends. My friends helped their mother bring it in the house and set it up but she had a stroke that week and it was never used, then my friend’s friend(one selling stove) bought the house in 2017.

It’s in a covered porch that is 15’x20’ and the heat really heats that room and doesn’t get into the house so co sundering that room was meant to be a 3 season room they want to free up space where the stove is and have no reason to heat it in winter.

Any info on Lopi Sheffield’s?

 

[begreen]

Wow, I haven't heard that name for a while. The Sheffield was a nice stove. Good looking and well built. It's sort of an old school Lopi with a firebrick on top of iron baffle. My main concern is that at 1.3 cu ft, it's a bit on the medium small side. Still, at that price it's worth trying it out for a season.

PS: That's a haphazard way of loading a stove. Too much air between the splits.

 

[GG Woody]

So the 6” liner shouldn’t be too much an issue going in a 6.75”x11” flue

Sounds easier than an 8, but sounds like a battle trying not to damage the liner and insulation, make sure you bring your patience and a helper with patience if you're tackling this yourself! Double/triple check that there isn't any mortar or anything to hook on before you get started.

 

[begreen]

Sounds easier than an 8, but sounds like a battle trying not to damage the liner and insulation, make sure you bring your patience and a helper with patience if you're tackling this yourself! Double/triple check that there isn't any mortar or anything to hook on before you get started.

Yes, a 6" insulated liner is not fitting down there unless it's a straight flue and the liner is ovalized.

 

[1870farmhouse]

Yes, a 6" insulated liner is not fitting down there unless it's a straight flue and the liner is ovalized.

Is a tool needed to ovalize or just done by hand slightly crushing circle into oval?

 

[begreen]

Is a tool needed to ovalize or just done by hand slightly crushing circle into oval?

The liner can be purchased oval. It can be field ovalized, but generally this is done with a tool so that it is consistent for the full length and not too much. The other option is to break out the clay liner so that an insulated 6" round liner passes without modification.

 

[1870farmhouse]

The liner can be purchased oval. It can be field ovalized, but generally this is done with a tool so that it is consistent for the full length and not too much. The other option is to break out the clay liner so that an insulated 6" round liner passes without modification.

Chimney liner appears to be clay and distance between joints look to be 18-24” apart.
Looks to be 10-12”x 10-12” wide.
So it seems the flue cap opening is 7x11” and the liner is wider.

Damper door was removed before I purchased the home last year. 7” clearance where the tape measure is shown.

Of the 6 approved installation types I may go with this to start, then add the insulated chimney liner next year.

 

[begreen]

That could be good news if its ID is 10" x 10". That ID is good for putting in an insulated 6" liner. However, it definitely is not ok for a direct connect of a stove that has 6" flue requirements. A 6" flue has an area of about 28.3". 100 sq in is 3.5 times the area. This is not permitted for 6" venting requirement. It will weaken draft and cool down the flue gases too much. This could end up in poor performance and a creosote trap as a result.

 

[GG Woody]

That looks to be a nice clean chimney, and looks to be in good shape!
Now is the time to get a liner in there, not after there's a bunch of nasty crispy creosote in there.
I wish I had a liner like that to work with, looks ideal!

 

[1870farmhouse]

That could be good news if its ID is 10" x 10". That ID is good for putting in an insulated 6" liner. However, it definitely is not ok for a direct connect of a stove that has 6" flue requirements. A 6" flue has an area of about 28.3". 100 sq in is 3.5 times the area. This is not permitted for 6" venting requirement. It will weaken draft and cool down the flue gases too much. This could end up in poor performance and a creosote trap as a result.

Ok, I get the requirement but let me ask this.

I saw a YouTube video saying that instead of running an insulated liner you can instead install a register plate/closure plate by the damper and use Mason mortar around the top glue around the liner to close off the glue from the elements since I have a clay tile liner.

Green, if you have 10-14 minutes to watch this video,

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It’s by a YouTuber named thetortoise and he speaks about the register/closure plate at 3:10 the multifuel adapter closure plate connection at 4:47

And in this, this old house video the chimney mason used a mortar mix to not allow weather to come in around the liner to the sides of the clay liner at 3:09

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The chimney is built in the 20’s with exterior block and clay liner of about 10-12” inside width. I’m in SE Pennsylvania 1 mile from Delaware and average winter lowest temps are mostly 20’s, I’m sure it gets more than below 10 degrees below freezing but on freak occurrences.
I’m thinking of doing this not to save money but since my liner is 10-12” wide but the flue cap is only 6.75x11 I either have to ovalize or buy oval insulated liner pipe or seal the top glue around the liner with mortar and use a closure plate at the firebox.

If I was in upper New York State, Minnesota then I wouldn’t question the insulation blanket but northern Delaware?

Have you seen this insulation alternative before.

 

[GG Woody]

What do you mean by 6.75x11 flue cap?
Similar to the cap in the video that you linked?

 

[begreen]

The first video is UK specific where many buildings are all masonry. The Old House video is for a fireplace, not a stove, so there are some differences. The one place I take exception is that no spacers were placed on the liner to maintain no contact with the surrounding brick. A wrap with an insulation blanket would have been a better solution here. And if the liner needs to be pulled later, it's no big deal as opposed to a big hassle with it cemented in with insulation cement.

As mentioned earlier. The liner insulation is for safety first, to meet code. The additional benefits are improved draft and and a cleaner flue. This is important in mild climates too. It helps prevent smoke spillage when outdoor temps are mild, like when one wants to have a fire on a 50º day.

Regardless of the choice, spend a bit more for a good quality liner and definitely install a block-off plate in the damper area with roxul or kaowool insulation on top of it. That will help keep the heat in the room.

 

[1870farmhouse]

What do you mean by 6.75x11 flue cap?
Similar to the cap in the video that you linked?

Where the

The first video is UK specific where many buildings are all masonry. The Old House video is for a fireplace, not a stove, so there are some differences. The one place I take exception is that no spacers were placed on the liner to maintain no contact with the surrounding brick. A wrap with an insulation blanket would have been a better solution here.

As mentioned earlier. The liner insulation is for safety first, to meet code. The additional benefits are improved draft and and a cleaner flue. This is important in mild climates too. It helps prevent smoke spillage when outdoor temps are mild, like when one wants to have a fire on a 50º day.

Regardless of the choice, spend a bit more for a good quality liner and definitely install a block-off plate in the damper area with roxul or kaowool insulation on top of it. That will help keep the heat in the room.

well good news, I found the drone footage I took of the chimney this spring and confirmed that the measurements the roofer gave me of the 2 flues were wrong, he said bother were 6.75"x11" and as you can see the two flues are different sizes and the flue on the left(the one for the fire place) is square so it can't be 6.75"x11". looks like my initial estimate that the fireplace clay liner inside measurements was somewhere between 10-12" was correct. so a 6" insulated liner will go down a 11x11" chimney liner just fine.

what do you think of the register/closure plate mated into the multi fuel adapter the English guy had going on?

I will put a metal cover over the small flue(one that fed the basement oil furnace) and thinking of putting a flush mounted chimney cap over both flues

 

[begreen]

That's good news. Ideally, it would be better to elevate the new woodstove liner end to 12" above the basement flue. This will help prevent back-siphoning of smoke down the basement flue, which can happen due to negative pressure in the basement.