help me evaluate my situation

[pippin65]

hi all, I stumbled upon this forum and am very happy for it. I've owned my home for ten years, it was built in 1978, and I have always wanted to have a fire in my fireplace. problem is the fireplace, which is brick, has a metal firebox that is rusted. the floor of this firebox is brick, the walls are metal which is rusted, but intact. the "ceiling" of this firebox is metal that has rust holes, the damper is rusted away, etc. My guess is that there never was any type of chimney cap, certainly there wasn't when I bought the home, and water damaged it. i believe the flue is ceramic. I have seen the wood burning fireplace inserts and am interested in purchasing one--my questions are:
--can I remove all of the metal in the box and just insert the insert?
--does the metal have to stay?
--my thought is I can rip out all the metal, get an insert and just link it up to the flue...
the dimensions of the opening are 35" wide by 28" high. it is 22" deep at the bottom and 15" deep at the top ( the metal fire box slopes at the top)
I would love to have a fireplace to warm our toes by xmas if possible

size notwithstanding, was thinking about something like this... http://www.fireplacesnow.com/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=29186

thanks in advance for any replies..

 

[pippin65]

or can I just rip out all the metal and perhaps line the thing with firebrick....

 

[begreen]

With that degree of rot, it sounds like its shot. This may require a complete tear out. But the benefit is a clean slate. If you go for a modern EPA unit it will heat better and use less fuel. Or perhaps consider a free standing stove in its place?

 

[pippin65]

because I live in central florida, the need for heat from a firepace is not nearly as important as just being able to hear and see a crackling fire --I wanna do this the cheapest way possible that doesn't make it look like I'm a hillbilly (not that I have anything against hillbillies....lol)
wanna do it myself, too

 

[fossil]

You want it cheap, or you want it done correctly and safe to operate? The old appliance that's in there sounds like it's junk, and needs to be completely removed and scrapped. Then there's the question of the type/condition/integrity of the flue from the appliance to daylight. It very well may not be suitable for a wood burning appliance of any kind. What sort of appliance do you put in place of the old rusted out unit? That depends, at least in part, on what you want to burn, and what you expect from the appliance in terms of heat. If all you're looking for is ambience and a crackling fire, then you'll probably be happy with some sort of pre-fab fireplace and you might find you needn't change out your flue/chimney piping (needs to be thoroughly cleaned & inspected, in any case). You need hands & eyes on-site by a professional. Rick

 

[pippin65]

of course I want it done correctly and safe to operate. anyone who wouldn't think of safety first when dealing with fire is a moron. I would have thought that as a moderator, you would always assume "safe to operate" is the mantra of this entire board. and my mistake for saying cheap as opposed to "less expensive" or "inexpensive".
I want to use the fireplace on thanksgiving, christmas, and maybe a dozen or more times a year, tops. I am not interested in how much heat it puts out, but rather am interested in the visual, sensual nature of fire itself.

 

[fossil]

...I would have thought that as a moderator, you would always assume "safe to operate" is the mantra of this entire board.

That's the "mantra" I try to put forward. You might be surprised how many new posters show up here who don't share that same basic philosophy (or perhaps, "understanding") toward burning. I hesitate to call them morons...just perhaps naive folks who have a lot to learn about what we're talking about here. We get all sorts of folks here asking about all this stuff...sometimes it's easy to tell from one post that they know something about it, other times it's not so easy. If I offended you in any way, I sincerely apologize. I still think your best bet for right now is to find a dealer/installer and have a pro come over and have a look at the situation. Sounds to me like that old rotten unit needs to go...where you go from there depends on a whole bunch of things. Doesn't sound like you need or want a nice woodburning insert for heat, but rather a prefab fireplace of some kind for crackling ambience. Rick

 

[littlesmokey]

Read the post except the last and almost posted, but went and got a cup of coffee instead. I don't think 95% of the folk here malicious. I think safety is always a top concern. After coffee I read Rick's second post. He's come down hard on me for tough posts, but there are some folk out there that want to cut and paste our posts to justify their stupidity. Generally we can see after a few who are the good guys and who are not. Some slither around longer than others, but they eventually are shown the door. The harshness is to get your attention. You have already described a very unsafe condition. Unlike Fossil I think you should go one or two steps further. You need more than a stove/installer/dealer. You have a serious water infiltration problem, stoves don't just rust away, even in Florida. You need an engineer to evaluate the situation. The structural issues need serious attention. Fix the building first. They will tell you what you can and can not do with the space. Then move on.

If you are looking for the ambiance of a fire, I have seen some super gas/propane units that are both vented and unvented that I thought were real fireplaces. One was cranking in a home with the temp outside at 107 °F , the air conditioning was cranking full blast and the fire was blazing. Only thing was, it was all an illusion. The glass was cool. A masterful trick. The owner loved fires, but felt cool when it was lit. Go figure. She even used a remote to turn it on and off. But it looked so real. Wander the site and listen in to the threads. Use the search tools and the sticky threads at the top of each listing. Ask your questions and see we really aren't the bad guys.

Sorry for coming on too strong, must be that gas bubble from today's dinner. :sick:

 

[cmonSTART]

Depending on how big the firebox and flue are after you take the old liner out, you may be able to squeeze a zero clearance unit in there. They're not that expensive.

 

[wellbuilt home]

The old steel boxes just rot away .
You could probably screw sheet metal over the rust holes and instal a insert .
then run a SS flue .
A 0 clearance insert would also work . Ive used a unit from Vermont castings that was nice . It can be run in wood framing .
Most of the old heatilator boxes are rusted out now . Most of the time its just the smoke shelf and damper that gos bad the box is still solid.
The steel boxes were just used as a forum and there should be concrete and brick around them with a insulation layer.
If you decide to remove the box the chimney will most likely stay in place but the clay flue will slide down into the fire box.( It sits on the steal box )
I drill a hole in the front of the first flue and slide a steal bar in to hold the flue wile e work. Then cover the opening and pull the steal bar ,let them drop out , some times we need to use a flue breaker from the top if they get stuck, John

 

[Hurricane]

I agree with Fossil That until you know what you have and what condition it is in you cannot know what needs to be done. I would go to the local fireplace store explain what your looking for and they may come and look to see what shape your setup is in and what is needed. I have an open fireplace that looks like it is field stone and people swear it is real but it is a prefab zero clearance insert, I know because I installed it.
You may have a zero clearance that is bricked up around it and the zero clearance is rotted. I do not know many real masonry fireplaces that are lined with metal, that does not mean they do not exist. You need to go to the store anyway to get what you will need, the local guy may know what is normal in your area.

Also if you took some pictures and posted them of the interior, up the top where damper is etc we could better understand.

Edit: I stand educated I did not know about the heatilator boxes. I have never seen one

 

[PapaDave]

of course I want it done correctly and safe to operate. anyone who wouldn't think of safety first when dealing with fire is a moron. I would have thought that as a moderator, you would always assume "safe to operate" is the mantra of this entire board. and my mistake for saying cheap as opposed to "less expensive" or "inexpensive".
I want to use the fireplace on thanksgiving, christmas, and maybe a dozen or more times a year, tops. I am not interested in how much heat it puts out, but rather am interested in the visual, sensual nature of fire itself.

Pippin,
Welcome to the Hearth.
I really think Rick hit the nail on the head, and as a mod, he's more often than not (by a long shot) spot on with his assessments. That being said, the "hearth mantra" is always, always, safety first. Not so much, some of the folks who come here as newbies, whether because they don't fully understand, or just don't care. The ones who don't care don't usually hang around too long. I hope you do.
Rick, and the rest of us, cannot, in all good conscience, ASSUME anything.
Littlesmokey suggests possible water damage. If you don't know how, have someone who does check it for you.
Your timetable is a little tight, but not impossible, so I wish you good luck.
Please keep us updated on your solutions and install pics. When you've done some more reading here, you'll see we love pics.
We're pretty nice guys and gals, and wish you nothing but success.

Dave

 

[pippin65]

thanks so much to everyone for your replies. i believe the firebox is rusted because there never was a chimney cap. it's dry as a bone since I put a play-ball in the outlet and wrapped the top with a black trash bag--lol
someone mentioned that the top usually rusts first and that the 3 walls are okay, this, I believe is my case. will post pics today
here's the pics link:
(broken link removed to http://picasaweb.google.com/Thom.Bess/Fireplace?feat=directlink)

 

[pippin65]

wondering if I could remove the metal, and place a smallish wood burning stove in the opening, or would this look silly?
any of you experts in the Tampa Bay/Spring Hill area?

 

[wellbuilt home]

You have a old steel fire box .
The sides are double walled most of the time , and very often have vents to let heat out .
The steel box should be encased in concrete block and cement .
You could probably cut the smoke shelf out , screw steel plate over the area with holes and install a stove in the existing box.
use some high heat paint to make it look good John

 

[begreen]

The pictures help a lot. This looks like an old heatilator unit. If so, I am wondering if the corrosion seen is from salt water? How is the integrity of the metal walls? It's rusty, but doesn't look as bad as I expected. If jabbed hard with a screwdriver, is it very solid?

If the flue is tile, then you may be able to install a small insert with a full stainless liner. Definitely see if you can get a chimney sweep to check out the flue and fireplace first. The flue needs to be cleaned before a liner is installed anyway and having a set of eyeballs investigating for any breeches would be a wise idea. If the sweep says go, then pick out a small insert that will fit and get a liner ordered.

 

[pippin65]

the metal walls are solid to a screwdriver probe. looks like the real problem is the rusted damper. would I be crazy to just buy a Seal tight chimney damper, paint the inside of the box with high heat paint, and light a fire? wife said no to any type of insert this year...:-(