HELP! Need advice on my liner install that just happened

[Manitoulin Maples]

I just had a stainless flex liner installed in my masonry chimney yesterday and need some advice. I have a PE Super 27 and the existing chimney meets code, height regulation, and its long enough. I have not measured precisely but it's probably around 16 feet...not super tall. I posted a thread about wood vs. propane earlier and you can see a pic of the hearth here:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/moving-need-advice-on-wood-vs-propane.113540/#post-1514784

Originally the stove shop owner (WETT certified) suggested a 5 1/2 liner as he felt the 6 would be too tight when he came to look. I removed the propane stove, measured the flue and suggested that 6 might work but of course I'm no expert and owner did not come back to double check. So yesterday the installer guys come and brought the 6 inch and we tried to make it work but no way it would go past some of the mortar sections. So they went back to the shop and brought a 5 inch liner plus adapters to the double wall 6 inch in the house. I was against this right away b/c it's essentially a 30% reduction in flue size and I feared smoke spillage and weaker draft...but with it snowing out and a baby on the way I said go ahead...against my better judgement perhaps.

Anyways, fire up the stove last night and draft does seem OK, not great, but OK, but there is smoke spillage big time. It' was -2C last night so above zero (mid 30s) will be worse for sure. This was something I did not want and now I'm stuck with it. I have not talked to store owner today and wondering what to do. I don't have the $$$ to remove all the clay tiles in chimney and get it fixed 100% right now to make the 6 inch fit. So I'm either stuck with the 5, or should I be asking for the 5 1/2 inch? At least that would be better....

thoughts?

 

[branchburner]

If your chimney is clay-lined and in good shape, why not vent directly into that, or is that against code in Canada? (In the US it would not be, but I believe it WOULD be against code to dump from a 6" appliance into a 5" flue.) What are the dimensions of tile?

Perhaps you can extend the flue to give the chimney more height and draw -- adding a temporary length of pipe should give you an idea.

 

[arro222]

Some stoves get their heat sucked right up the chimney if draft from a large flue overwhelms the stove at mid burn. The other problem arises when a chimney is too large and the stove output cannot "push" the column of air within the chimney hard enough thus reducing draft considerably. My old stove stipulated a liner no larger than 3 times the sectional cross width area of the stove outlet. The stove had a 6" outlet and I had a 7x11 terra cotta liner so i fell in the ok zone. I have heard that a small reduction is possible with some liners that are labeled "smooth" such as a rigid or less corrugated flex liner may be. Because the surface is smooth, draft has less resistance making up for the smaller size and thus equaling out. If it were me, i'd go no smaller than 5.5" and stipulate that you want a "smooth" type liner if it needs to be flex rather than rigid. Also, since your chimney height is not large, i'd go with rigid. All you'd need is 4 sections of 4ft lengths. The rigid liner gets drilled and riveted and goes together quite quickly.

 

[adam9823]

If your chimney is clay-lined and in good shape, why not vent directly into that, or is that against code in Canada? (In the US it would not be, but I believe it WOULD be against code to dump from a 6" appliance into a 5" flue.) What are the dimensions of tile?

Perhaps you can extend the flue to give the chimney more height and draw -- adding a temporary length of pipe should give you an idea.

Your stove has a 6" outlet off the top and should never be reduced. Not only should the liner be 6" but it has to be insulated. I see this all the time from people who should not be doing this kind of work. Ask for the make of the liner and look up the manual. It will have all the information about lining for a wood chimney. I would check there certification and have your chimney inspected by someone else! GOOD LUCK

 

[begreen]

What you probably want is M&G DuraLiner. Their insulated 6" oval is 4 3/4 x 7 3/4". They have a full system including both rigid and flex, round and oval, plus the tees, etc. to get the job done. DuraLiner is not cheap, but it will provide an excellent, insulated solution for a job like this.

Also, can you describe how the stove is connected? If it goes up a few feet and then into a 90 then into a horiz. piece that inserts into a tee in the liner, check the horiz section to be sure it is pitched uphill toward the chimney by at least 1/4" per foot.You might also want to replace the 90 with a pair of 45s and a short connector between then. Pictures always help here.

 

[arro222]

should never be reduced. K

This comes with a caveat. To say "should never be reduced" and I'll ask why? . I'll contribute why they may be reduced slightly. Coefficients of laminar flow if equaling out flow resistance for a comparison flue size is acceptable. As you are reducing flue diameter, you are increasing flue velocity and may be just what his stove needs. It seems to be a viable alternative especially with a liner with a smooth interior. Liner manufacturers have met with success in these slight reductions. Both Duraliner and Rockford Chimney or the one's I have spoken with, offer this tactic as an alternative just so long as the liner is smooth..

 

[BrotherBart]

Is this smoke spillage after the stove is up to temp or just when starting up?

 

[Ashful]

Is this smoke spillage after the stove is up to temp or just when starting up?

My first question, as well. Lots of solutions offered (begreens being a very good one), but I'm not sure the problem was described adequately.

 

[branchburner]

it has to be insulated

Not if the existing clay liner meets code.

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

If your chimney is clay-lined and in good shape, why not vent directly into that, or is that against code in Canada? (In the US it would not be, but I believe it WOULD be against code to dump from a 6" appliance into a 5" flue.) What are the dimensions of tile?

Perhaps you can extend the flue to give the chimney more height and draw -- adding a temporary length of pipe should give you an idea.

I can vent into chimney but it would need a bit of work and I was told draft and cleaning would be much better with a liner. Tile dimensions are around 6.25 by 10 inches but there are mortar lines in places they stopped the 6 inch liner from going through.

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

Your stove has a 6" outlet off the top and should never be reduced. Not only should the liner be 6" but it has to be insulated. I see this all the time from people who should not be doing this kind of work. Ask for the make of the liner and look up the manual. It will have all the information about lining for a wood chimney. I would check there certification and have your chimney inspected by someone else! GOOD LUCK

It can be reduced actually. I called Pacific Energy today and while the manual states they recommend keeping the flue size the same as the collar size, they do allow installations with a line one size up or down. They even have a letter they can send if you need one. As for insulation I was told all I need is cap insulation because the existing chimney runs through the house?

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

What you probably want is M&G DuraLiner. Their insulated 6" oval is 4 3/4 x 7 3/4". They have a full system including both rigid and flex, round and oval, plus the tees, etc. to get the job done. DuraLiner is not cheap, but it will provide an excellent, insulated solution for a job like this.

Also, can you describe how the stove is connected? If it goes up a few feet and then into a 90 then into a horiz. piece that inserts into a tee in the liner, check the horiz section to be sure it is pitched uphill toward the chimney by at least 1/4" per foot.You might also want to replace the 90 with a pair of 45s and a short connector between then. Pictures always help here.

Here's a pic:

Liner goes down chimney and no tee was used. The liner bends into the horizontal section leading to the house and then into a 5 inch to 6 inch stainless adapter. From the adapter a double wall 6 inch piece is attached to the double wall 90 elbow to the 12 inch double and then stove.

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

Is this smoke spillage after the stove is up to temp or just when starting up?

I noticed it mostly when stove was up to temp and going - went to adjust some pieces and had smoke spillage. that nonsense where you try and do things fast with the poker cuz you can see smoke being pulled into the room.

 

[begreen]

Looks great, now we just need to get it drafting well too. Looks like there isn't much that can change with the connector.

Do you know what the tile size is in the chimney? Is this a basement install?

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

Looks great, now we just need to get it drafting well too. Is this a basement install?

no, main floor of house...old funky brick hearth though!

 

[branchburner]

Between your choice of 5" undersized flue and a 6x10" oversized flue, I think BG's suggestion of an ovalized sounds better, but I wonder if your WETT pro didn't offer it because he thought 5" was easily applicable to your stove in its setting.

You may find the following thread of interest, as it discusses the downsizing of 6" to 5", with specific reference to PE having some models well-suited to 5": (broken link removed to http://chimneysweeponline.com/houndersiz.htm)

 

[begreen]

I like the hearth. It's nice to have tool and wood storage built in.

Did you try opening the door or window a little to see if that reduced smoke spillage? To reduce this spillage first open the air control all the way then open the stove door slowly.

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

I like the hearth. It's nice to have tool and wood storage built in.

Did you try opening the door or window a little to see if that reduced smoke spillage? To reduce this spillage first open the air control all the way then open the stove door slowly.

Yes I always open the door like that and aware of that trick....but did not open a window to see. So if that works, does that mean I have to open a window every time I want to open the stove?

I posted more info above too and replied to others, including tile size.

 

[BrotherBart]

With the two 90 degree turns and the downsized liner it brings the effective length of the venting down under design specs for sure. I am sure that PE was referring to taking the pipe down or up one size in a straight up chimney configuration. I don't remember the math but that chimney is probably in the equivalent range of 12 feet or so EVL.

 

[begreen]

I mentioned opening a nearby door or window a crack to see if it makes a difference. If it does then there is likely negative pressure in the house. I don't think it will make a difference, but it's worth testing to check off the list. Given the smaller liner and the double 90 turn in the smokepath, I think this is most likely a draft issue. One way to test would be for the stove shop to put a manometer on and check it. Another would be to stick a temporary 3 ft of 5" pipe in the liner up top and see if that makes a significant improvement.

 

[Dave A.]

Neat stove setting with those storage alcoves. Was that built that way for a stove or was it originally a fireplace adapted for the stove? Nice semi circular hearth too. I really like the whole thing, nicely done.

I know my PE Summit breathes very well. But 5" in a short flue like that sounds just too small to me.

 

[rdust]

I noticed it mostly when stove was up to temp and going - went to adjust some pieces and had smoke spillage. that nonsense where you try and do things fast with the poker cuz you can see smoke being pulled into the room.

With active flames I'm not surprised you had spillage. No reason to open the door once the fire is active, when it's down to coals and you open the door there will be little if any smoke left in the coals.

 

[stoveguy13]

Liner goes down chimney and no tee was used. The liner bends into the horizontal section leading to the house and then into a 5 inch to 6 inch stainless adapter

this could cause a lot of your problems if they bent the liner it has reduced the 5 inch down even more there is a very small likely hood that they didnt collapse that liner trying to bend it like that

 

[begreen]

Yes, I was wondering the same thing. The proper ways to connect would have been with a capped tee and a snout.

 

[BrotherBart]

I turned my 5.5" liner into the crock that way on my basement chimney because I couldn't get a danged tee down through the tiles. Made a smooth no-kink turn but it took taking it slow and easy and not getting in a hurry. Member Todd did the same thing with one of his.