Help- screwed up hearth for my Heritage

[ansehnlich1]

Gump here....

This entire thread would be a nonissue if the FREAKIN' HEARTH WAS BUILT TO SPEC. IN THE FIRST PLACE!

WHAT'S THAT TELL YA??????

DUH!

To the OP, what say you? You burnin' that heritage yet?

 

[Bobbin]

I can only imagine how discouraged you must be to have worked hard on a hearth for your new stove and then discover that you misread the requirements for adequate protection below it. I know it's small consolation but you're not the first one to do it and you won't be the last. So take heart.

And fix it properly! It's a safety issue and you will be glad you corrected it when you look back on the project in years to come. It may well become one of those great "family stories"; the sort born of this very sort of mistake. And every one of us has one! Err on the side of caution, fix the hearth, and document it with pictures you can share with the rest of us.

The best thing about this site is that the bottom line is safe, efficient operation of wood/pellet/coal stoves. Don't jack-ass around with safety. Every year we hear or read of some tragic event that has its roots in shrugging off a safety requirement or overlooking some important detail.

 

[ansehnlich1]

firefighterjake 5575
Highbeam 4203
Hogwildz 4014
CarbonNeutral 941
Dakotas Dad 524
cptoneleg 210
Browning BAR 1491
ansehnlich1 1143
Bobbin 631

There's a quick count of the total posts from the good folk here at hearth.com who ALL have recommended rebuilding this hearth....some 18,000+ posts.....

.....from some long time members

 

[Milton Findley]

Sorry Milt, you are wrong. The dead air space listing is great and usable for hearth construction. I used this method in my hearth. A heat shield, however, does not make a hearth. The hearth is placed beneath the feet of the stove AND extends to the sides, back, and front as specified in that same manual that you seem so capable of reading. You are reading the whole manual aren't you?

If you placed a steel plate of adequate size under the stove and spaced it up off of the combustible floor the proper distance then you would be in compliance with the manual. It would be an elevated hearth as has been done before.

As an aside, I caught grief for my use of the "dead air space" as a means of getting the proper R-value in my hearth. I stand by the decision and with Hearthstone's agreement that you can accumulate massive R-value with "dead air space".

Heat shield + space = R-value. Air does not conduct heat very well, and hearths must be rated at an R value because the heat radiated to them is conducted to the surfaces below them. If the radiant heat does not get there, or it gets there at a much reduced value, it cannot be conducted to the surfaces below, as your steel plate example clearly illustrates. In this case, the heat shield is the steel plate, and the dead air space is above rather than below the hearth.

The Heritage manual requires only 5 inches of hearth to the sides, and rear, except if the left side wood loading door is being used. This is because scattered embers are the things we must guard against. Do you really think that the hearth needs to have the same R value for the side radiation that it does directly beneath the stove? Or would you think that that 5 inches has more to do with the radiated heat from the bottom of the stove which is a lot closer to the hearth and still direct radiation unless blocked by a heat shield and a little dead air?

(I did read the whole book, and I am building the hearth as we natter on, but I am lucky in that masonry and concrete lie beneath). And you never have to apologize for telling me I am wrong, I used to keep a list of the times I was wrong in my pocket, but I quit after I started walking with a limp.

 

[Dakotas Dad]

While this thread is augering in hard...

I do want to put something out about the dead air space, directly from the manual for MY stove, in the section about building a hearth or floor protector:

Dead air space has an R-value of .92 per 1/8th inch.. but:

Note: You cannot “stack” horizontal still air to accumulate R-values; you must separate each layer of horizontal still air with another noncombustible material.

Page 10 of the Manual for Homestead 8570.

 

[elmoleaf]

For comparison, here are the hearth requirements for unlisted stoves per NFPA 211 as quoted on this website:

Floor Protection for Unlisted Stoves (from NFPA 211)
Size: Floor Protection shall extend to at least 18” from all sides of the appliance.

Construction: The basic floor protection specified by NFPA applies to stoves with legs over 6” in height. This means that the floor of the stove combustion chamber should be at least this height above the floor surface. The standard calls for:
1. Closely spaced 2” thick masonry units (brick or cinderblock/patio block.
2. Top cover of 24 gauge sheet metal.

For stoves with legs from 2” to 6” in height, the standard calls for:
1. Hollow 4” blocks set on their side so that the ventilated spaces line up horizontally. The ends should remain open for proper flow of cooling air.
2. Top cover of 24 gauge sheet metal.

The former arrangment would have an r-value of about 0.4, while the latter would be about 0.8 (presumably a bit higher, because of the ventilated air-space has a higher r-value).

I don't know the leg/firebox height of the Homestead, but you should be able to use this information to help judge any additional margin of safety you need to add to your installation.
Just for the record, if it were mine, I'd probably redo the installation per the manufacturer's requirements.

 

[Stump_Branch]

Easy now. No need to be Self-righteous, posing or any other self-ism that leads you to bouts of anger over anothers thoughts. I have read this post For quite some time, never posted because I dont have anything to say. Not my house, not my fire.

First, set all your R-values aside, I have the cough lovely opportunity cough to work with engineers all day long. dealing with more issues then heat and a metal box to make a fire. No offense, as I wanted to be one, maybe still do, you all suck. Read a book get a pencil and a calculator and provided you paid attention in school you to can do the same math. (ask them to do finance math, like watch monkeys drive) Now dont assume im beating on those who are, you make the world..move. But if you get focused on how to add up some arbitrary numbers to get some 'magical' one, you are preforming a simple human trick. Every item you add up has been doctored to some 'safety factor'. every manufacturer, dealer, joe home-blower adds his own to call it GOOD. so your adding on someones inflated guess. Thats like trying split wood without anyone telling you how to cut it down, buck it up, and thusly split it. People for ohhhhh I dont know, since the beginning of time, where building fires. cave men, Neanderthal, all sorts of indigenous peoples 'discovered' and utilized it all their own. And I will venture a guess that a whole mess load of humans died in the long arduous process of taming one of the four elements. but along the way lots of them figured it out. This runs along the lines of worrying intently on "draft settings" "re-load times" " what temp do you____" when we forget that its fire.

With that, rant, my point. I agree with whom ever said, your building afire in your house. you said it in as many words as I did in the above.

Dont knock the guy for trying something out of the box thats how people came up with EPA stoves with burn tubes cats and little eleves that blow on the fire to keep flames. If it works for you then damn, you just completed something many only grasp at, Maslow highest, Self-actualization (not one of the Self-ism mentioned above) and good for you, its that same felling some of you and I get when we fell a tree, buck, split, stack, stare, carry, stoke, and warm our Souls knowing 'WE' did it ourselves.

To End, dude dont burn you mother f'in house down. if you give it a good look and in the back of your mind you second guess if its right, tear it out. Whats fours days of work worth? What do you make an hour? What would Carls Chimney or Harrys Home improvment cost and hour? Just venture a guess (I dont know you maybe your bill gates rich) but even still I bet its not worth more then your home, family, dog, cat, goldfish, or even the peace of mind that a nice warm sleep with a clear conscience.

Do it the right way, over do it if ever unsure, K-I-S. Whatever gets you to the point, that you stand back, look at at your work and truely feel good, not asking a bunch of weirdos (sorry guys and gals here) on the Internet so that when you look at your work and second guess it you have "well that forum site said..." in the back of your head. Good Luck.

Crap rambled so much I need to put another log in

 

[Hogwildz]

Gotta love when the know it alls come in and give a guy the thumbs up on an install that could burn his house down and harm his family.
Especially those with a handful of posts under their belt.
Ins. Co. will not cover a improper install. Its called using in a known unsafe condition, or installed in a manner other than recommended by the manufacturer, etc.etc. etc, they will deny you every time.
If some moron says it seems fine to him, and the manufacturer specs are not necessary, are you really going to go with that word? Seriously, did you post the questions for proper input, or just to see if some fool would tell you what you want to hear? Do it right, it could be your home, you, your family or worse yet, the person the house gets sold to in the future, that may pay a grave price. Pretty cut and dry in my book.
To the morons, you know who you are, I suggest you keep unsafe advise to yourself. Unf-ckinbelievable!

This is not meant to be harsh towards any person in particular.
Just expressing frustration in the years I been here, watching folks come and go, and many leaving bad advice their short time spent here. And moving on without realizing the danger the bad advice they spew puts others in.
Really, this ain't no pissing match or who is right & wrong. Its about safety. And the bottom line is better to do correctly or overkill, then THINK you can get away with less.
None the less, as Gump put it.... Stupid is, as stupid does.

Forrest was absolutely right. For example, he might have come to believe that if he made a lot of posts on a forum, and gotten himself promoted to Flaming Bleeding Deacon, it would make him smart enough to tell other people to not pay attention to simple physics and what the installation manual and knowledgeable people like dealer/installers tell them. He might even come to believe that there is only one way to do something, his way. He would still wake up every morning as Forrest Gump, but he would feel better about himself.

It is not the umber of posts Milt, it is the time spent sharing, researching and doing. I took a very unsafe prior owner/installer install here, tore it out, and did it RIGHT, and probably overkill. When it comes to my house burning down, I'd rather be overkill than skimp. I personally have helped in several donor installs, along with helping a few members here install their stoves/ inserts, liners etc. I did those all with utmost safety in mind also.
Call it physics, engineering, whatever you want, the fact of the matter is a manufacturers requirements on an install are for the consumer's safety & protection. The code man, firehouse and insurance companies will not okay a half ass install or corner cutting. Period. If your not getting inspected as was my case, do what you want, it is your home, family, life. I still did mine above and beyond, and would never do it any other way.
There are two ways of doing things, the RIGHT way, and the WRONG way. It really is that simple.
The original poster may feel like he is getting flamed, and a few members might be doing that. But the majority of the members have real experiences, and say it how it is out of concerns for safety and well being. Plain and simple. I and others will be here to explain the safe way vs. the corner cutting way. Some things you just don't skimp on, safety is one of them.

 

[begreen]

I just looked in on this thread to see what the solution turned out to be. Seems to have touched some sensitive nerves. The hearth 'may' be ok or maybe not, hard to say without some long term evaluation. Time will tell. Ultimately this is going to have to be about your peace of mind. The code and manuf. testing are there for a reason. If you decide on going with the heat shield, it must extend in front of the stove. This is often where the hearth gets hottest. That's going to really mess with the look of the nice hearth and it's why I suggested at the beginning to talk with the dealer about upgrading to the Mansfield.

I urge some thought on this matter. We can't tell how this hearth will perform over years of use, nor can your dealer. But stone conducts heat well and wood can pyrolyze over time. In the house my wife grew up in there was an upper and lower fireplace both of which were burned in occasionally for 40 years without incident. Then one bitter cold winter we got both fireplaces going strong to combat the cold and to try to keep the place above freezing. That succeeded, but about 2am we smelt smoke upstairs. It was coming from the floor, actually from the hearth. The supporting timbers were smoldering underneath 6" of stone. It happens. Fortunately we got it out, but it was close. So I advocate correcting the situation so that there is maximum peace of mind.

 

[firefighterjake]

firefighterjake 5575
Highbeam 4203
Hogwildz 4014
CarbonNeutral 941
Dakotas Dad 524
cptoneleg 210
Browning BAR 1491
ansehnlich1 1143
Bobbin 631

There's a quick count of the total posts from the good folk here at hearth.com who ALL have recommended rebuilding this hearth....some 18,000+ posts.....

.....from some long time members

You have to divide my post count by half though . . . because half of my posts are making fun of Dennis' habit of splitting wood vertically.

 

[firefighterjake]

. . . and again I say there is a very simple solution to decide if a dead air space would work, heat shield or Star Trek shield would work . . . contact Hearthstone directly and ask them. The worse that can happen is they say no to the idea . . . the best that can happen is you can write back and tell us that we were wrong and should go pound sand -- but even that would be OK since it would mean we have all learned something.

 

[Hogwildz]

. . . and again I say there is a very simple solution to decide if a dead air space would work, heat shield or Star Trek shield would work . . . contact Hearthstone directly and ask them. The worse that can happen is they say no to the idea . . . the best that can happen is you can write back and tell us that we were wrong and should go pound sand -- but even that would be OK since it would mean we have all learned something.

+1
And good luck which ever way you decide.