Help- screwed up hearth for my Heritage

[ansehnlich1]

You need to get this sorted out - either with a different stove (Jotul F500 is ember protection only) or by ripping it out.

Uh, yeah, I agree 100 percent. This ain't nothin to be playing with. Look, you have a manufacturer's safety requirement in print, and you're looking for some way to get around it?

I tried not to post to this thread because I've posted in several others where I think people are trying to skirt codes, requirements, safety issues, etc.

Do what you want, but I say if you want that stove, then rip out the hearth and do it right, or get a compatible stove for the hearth you built.

If I think jumpin off a cliff is a safe idea and I ask 500 people what they think and they all say no, but I find just one that says yeah, go ahead, it'll be ok, does that make it safe to do?

I just read in another thread, 'You are going to be building a FIRE in your home' :bug:

 

[CarbonNeutral]

Well Hearthstone doesnt talk to consumers- so my dealer in VA- Acme Stove- big here in Western VA - was confident I was ok- especially fabricating the heat shield....and they sell and install hundreds of Hearthstone units per year....so no rip out.

Great, get them to sign a piece of paper saying that if your house burns down, or family members die, that they will provide full and immediate compensation. I'm sure they won't have a problem with that as they clearly have worked through the heat transfer equations and know that you're perfectly safe.

Chances are you won't have a problem, but just maybe...

I think this thread is done.

 

[Rob From Wisconsin]

Well Hearthstone doesnt talk to consumers- so my dealer in VA- Acme Stove- big here in Western VA - was confident I was ok- especially fabricating the heat shield....and they sell and install hundreds of Hearthstone units per year....so no rip out.

So how are you building your heat shield??

 

[firefighterjake]

Another vote to doing things the right way . . . I've been around for a while as a firefighter and truthfully where I see problems with fires and woodstoves is . . .

1) improper disposal of ashes
2) unnmaintained chimneys full of creosote (often due to burning unseasoned wood or burning too cooly)
3) failure to maintain proper clearances and hearth requirements

I care when a person loses a home . . . I care more when a person fails to recognize a danger and someone loses a life.

Again . . . as much of a pain in the petuey this would be . . . my vote is to rip it out and do it right . . . and sleep well at night knowing you and your family are safe.

 

[cptoneleg]

I shopped around before purchasing my stove, and came to this conclusion, most of these dealers don't know squat. You asked your ? to folks who help each other learn on this site. Now what you gonna do pilgram, just hope you dont live on the same mtn. as me and my family.

 

[Rob From Wisconsin]

Post Note:

I've also found that leaving a decent ash layer in my Hearthstone also makes
a significant difference in reducing the heat that makes it to the hearth.
If your model has an ash tray, by letting it fill-up & just scooping-out a bit here-and-there,
you're probably adding some R value......

 

[chuckn]

Post Note:

I've also found that leaving a decent ash layer in my Hearthstone also makes
a significant difference in reducing the heat that makes it to the hearth.
If your model has an ash tray, by letting it fill-up & just scooping-out a bit here-and-there,
you're probably adding some R value......

Thanks- good info. Yes I do have the ash pan. So that will help. That combined with a heat shield- fashioned the way my dealer (who is the largest Hearthstone dealer in VA- and is very good) told me to fabricate it, they said that I would be more than fine. So why the venom from some guys?

Is it better to rip out 4 days worth of good rock work or have my local Highland Welding guy build a good little shield from heavy sheet metal to fit under the stove with 1 inch legs to create a 1 inch air space below and between that and the sheet metal heat dispersion- they say I'm good and it will be safe.

Maybe some of the guys who are beating on me to just want to beat on someone. I don't want to cut corners, and I certainly don't want to endanger my family, but sometimes there is more than one safe solution to a problem. And to the guy who says he hopes I don't live on his mountain- Isn't that a little much buddy? My mountain has good neighbors- you sound a little pompous for my neck of the woods.

 

[elmoleaf]

Using R value numbers from http://chimneysweeponline.com/horvalue.htm and http://www.usg.com/durock-cement-board.html#tab-faqs, it appears as constructed your hearth has:
1/2 durock r=0.26
1/2 mortar r= 0.1
1.5" min limestone r = 0.24
total r value = 0.6 versus mfr's requirement of 1.2.

The heat shield won't insulate but rather reduce radiant heat reaching the floor. I don't know how to quantify the added safety it will provide.

Long term exposure to heat will reduce the ignition point of wood (see http://www.doctorfire.com/low_temp_wood1.pdf for some interesting reading). It seems that wood can ignite even as low as 170F, given the right circumstances.

If you can't safely hold your hand on the hearth beneath your stove, then it's probably unsafe long-term for the wood beneath also. I suppose you can see how feels with your heat shield installed or take some temperature readings. Good luck.

 

[Highbeam]

You don't have a choice. Rip it out and do it right. Anything else will be polishing a turd unless you can get Hearthstone to buy off on it in writing. Yes, they will talk to you. I've spoken to Hearthstone several times via email. Jim is great.

Your hearth requirements do not just apply to directly under the stove. They apply to the entire required hearth area as set forth in the manual. This extends well in front of and beside the stove.

You need to do this by the book or else you risk loosing everything when a fire happens. It will be easy to blame the fire on the obvious error in hearth construction whether or not that is the real cause.

Oh and feeling a hot hearth beneath the stove is a sign of high R-value. A cold hearth beneath the stove is a sign of too low an R-value and the surrounding materials wicking the heat away. Feeling a cool hearth beneath the stove is evidence of your mistake and not an "all clear" sign.

 

[firefighterjake]

Ash may help insulate . . . but it is not a real, viable solution. It is a band-aid.

Adding a heat shield could potentially work . . . but I would not just take the word from the dealer (no offense to these dealers or any others . . . but too often folks here have had bad information from dealers that was at best wrong and at worse dangerous) . . . of course if Hearthstone would put this in writing I would not have much heart burn over it since to me that would show that they have faith in the modification.

That said . . . if you stick around you will see folks here -- or most folks -- do not come here and stay here to pick on the new guy or to beat up on the person asking a question . . . rather folks here simply want to keep people safe . . . and while there sometimes may be more than one way to achieve a comparable level of safety (we see this all the time in fire prevention) -- sometimes sadly there are no alternatives . . .

Again, I would take Highbeam's advice and contact Hearthstone directly and see if your proposed metal shielding would pass muster . . . and if they would be willing to put the official OK on letterhead. If yes . . . go for it. If no, I would tear this out and start over and chaulk it up to a learning experience.

 

[Rob From Wisconsin]

Post Note:

I've also found that leaving a decent ash layer in my Hearthstone also makes
a significant difference in reducing the heat that makes it to the hearth.
If your model has an ash tray, by letting it fill-up & just scooping-out a bit here-and-there,
you're probably adding some R value......

Thanks- good info. Yes I do have the ash pan. So that will help. That combined with a heat shield- fashioned the way my dealer (who is the largest Hearthstone dealer in VA- and is very good) told me to fabricate it, they said that I would be more than fine. So why the venom from some guys?

Is it better to rip out 4 days worth of good rock work or have my local Highland Welding guy build a good little shield from heavy sheet metal to fit under the stove with 1 inch legs to create a 1 inch air space below and between that and the sheet metal heat dispersion- they say I'm good and it will be safe.

Maybe some of the guys who are beating on me to just want to beat on someone. I don't want to cut corners, and I certainly don't want to endanger my family, but sometimes there is more than one safe solution to a problem. And to the guy who says he hopes I don't live on his mountain- Isn't that a little much buddy? My mountain has good neighbors- you sound a little pompous for my neck of the woods.

Yikes!! I'm feeling some of the hostility also.

I have the same issue as you do, but being that I'm an engineer, I always take a reasonable approach.
Yes, converting "radiant" to "convection" & adding an air gap will help in disappating heat.
Yes, the hottest spot is directly underneath the stove, and drops significantly when you leave from underneath
(measured w/ calibrated I/R Temp Gun).
Yes, ash also has a significant insulating value (measured also).
Yes, I can place my hand underneath my shield without discomfort (mine is cement board w/ air gap).
And yes, Engineers tend to add a bit of "fluff" to tolerances to cover all possible (but unlikely) circumstances.

Interesting footnote...
One of my previous woodstoves was installed to mfr's spec's for corner installation,
and interestingly, the wall temp measured as hot as it did underneath my current stove!!

 

[CarbonNeutral]

I don't think it's hostility - it's plain and simple concern for you and your family, but you're not getting what is suggested, so people are using plainer and plainer language. All of the following are facts (in plain language, I apologize)

You have a hearth which is unsafe.
There may be heat shields that you could build that would make it safe.
Your dealer is not equipped to make suggestions about what could be safe - they are not engineers, and they would not sign a piece of paper taking responsibility for anything that happens
You are looking for anyone here to justify your (understandable) wish to not remove the hearth

Do what you want, obviously, but make that decision yourself, don't look to someone on the internet to support that decision when the rest of us experts (and I mean that with heavy sarcasm) have said rip it out. Step up, decide what to do in the face of everything that's been said. feel good about that decision.

 

[Highbeam]

Don't forget to consider the liability you would be taking on when you sell the home and that new owner cleans the ash pan. Your unsafe hearth could cause death to future homeowners as well as your family. Penny wise and pound foolish to leave it as is and install the heritage not following the minimum requirments.

Attaching a piece of tin to the bottom and calling it "goodnuf" is silly. Hearthstone has done calcs and determined what is needed. Your tin knocker is a tin knocker. Great at knocking tin, bad at doing calcs and worse at being insured to take liability for the calcs. We're not talking a few thousand here, we're talking millions in damages and claims against this poor decision.

Most of us don't have millions laying around to cover such poor decisions. Then there is the jail time, you do realize that knowingly endangering (and then damaging)other innocent people carries jail time potential don't you?

You can scrimp on lots of stuff in construction, but scrimping on something that puts lifes at risk is foolish.

 

[Milton Findley]

Putting a 1 inch dead air space underneath the stove in the form of a heat shield with 1 inch spacers will provide you with an additional R value of 7.36. See the Heritage installation manual, page 8 for the figures.

Looks like your dealer read the manual.

 

[CarbonNeutral]

Putting a 1 inch dead air space underneath the stove in the form of a heat shield with 1 inch spacers will provide you with an additional R value of 7.36. See the Heritage installation manual, page 8 for the figures.

Looks like your dealer read the manual.

I couldn't find any reference to a bottom heat shield in the 8021 manual linked on Hearthstone's page: http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/assets/files/document_library/Heritage8021Manual.pdf

Maybe I missed it though. Interesting that the 8020 manual :

http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/assets/files/document_library/Heritage8020Manual.pdf only mentions non-combustible with no R-value. Also couldn't find a reference to a bottom heat shield.

What manual do you have, and for what model, as it seems to be pretty critical?

 

[Milton Findley]

Putting a 1 inch dead air space underneath the stove in the form of a heat shield with 1 inch spacers will provide you with an additional R value of 7.36. See the Heritage installation manual, page 8 for the figures.

Looks like your dealer read the manual.

I couldn't find any reference to a bottom heat shield in the 8021 manual linked on Hearthstone's page: http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/assets/files/document_library/Heritage8021Manual.pdf

Maybe I missed it though. Interesting that the 8020 manual :

http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/assets/files/document_library/Heritage8020Manual.pdf only mentions non-combustible with no R-value. Also couldn't find a reference to a bottom heat shield.

What manual do you have, and for what model, as it seems to be pretty critical?

It does not matter what manual, or what model, the R value for a 1 inch dead air space is the same under a stove, in an attic, or between your ears. The value is given on page 8 of the 8021 manual. Be sure to read the fine print down below so that you understand that the value listed is from an unimpeachable source.

 

[CarbonNeutral]

It does not matter what manual, or what model, the R value for a 1 inch dead air space is the same under a stove, in an attic, or between your ears. The value is given on page 8 of the 8021 manual. Be sure to read the fine print down below so that you understand that the value listed is from an unimpeachable source.

So presumably the heat shield you're talking about will also cover the space in front, behind, and to the sides of the stove? I believe that they include the dead air space as a reference to air gaps trapped within the hearth construction. Please don't imply I'm an idiot when there is no specific reference to a bottom heat shield in this manual.

 

[Hogwildz]

Gotta love when the know it alls come in and give a guy the thumbs up on an install that could burn his house down and harm his family.
Especially those with a handful of posts under their belt.
Ins. Co. will not cover a improper install. Its called using in a known unsafe condition, or installed in a manner other than recommended by the manufacturer, etc.etc. etc, they will deny you every time.
If some moron says it seems fine to him, and the manufacturer specs are not necessary, are you really going to go with that word? Seriously, did you post the questions for proper input, or just to see if some fool would tell you what you want to hear? Do it right, it could be your home, you, your family or worse yet, the person the house gets sold to in the future, that may pay a grave price. Pretty cut and dry in my book.
To the morons, you know who you are, I suggest you keep unsafe advise to yourself. Unf-ckinbelievable!

This is not meant to be harsh towards any person in particular.
Just expressing frustration in the years I been here, watching folks come and go, and many leaving bad advice their short time spent here. And moving on without realizing the danger the bad advice they spew puts others in.
Really, this ain't no pissing match or who is right & wrong. Its about safety. And the bottom line is better to do correctly or overkill, then THINK you can get away with less.
None the less, as Gump put it.... Stupid is, as stupid does.

 

[Milton Findley]

It does not matter what manual, or what model, the R value for a 1 inch dead air space is the same under a stove, in an attic, or between your ears. The value is given on page 8 of the 8021 manual. Be sure to read the fine print down below so that you understand that the value listed is from an unimpeachable source.

So presumably the heat shield you're talking about will also cover the space in front, behind, and to the sides of the stove? I believe that they include the dead air space as a reference to air gaps trapped within the hearth construction. Please don't imply I'm an idiot when there is no specific reference to a bottom heat shield in this manual.

Your presumptions and beliefs are not my concern nor will I quibble with you over your interpretation of reality.

Will the hearth be safe with a heat shield installed between the stove ash drawer and the hearth according to the information provided in the manual is the question, and undoubtedly, it will be. The OP can proceed without further concerns after installing the heat shield without wrecking anything, or worrying himself further.

 

[BrowningBAR]

It does not matter what manual, or what model, the R value for a 1 inch dead air space is the same under a stove, in an attic, or between your ears. The value is given on page 8 of the 8021 manual. Be sure to read the fine print down below so that you understand that the value listed is from an unimpeachable source.

So presumably the heat shield you're talking about will also cover the space in front, behind, and to the sides of the stove? I believe that they include the dead air space as a reference to air gaps trapped within the hearth construction. Please don't imply I'm an idiot when there is no specific reference to a bottom heat shield in this manual.

Your presumptions and beliefs are not my concern nor will I quibble with you over your interpretation of reality.

Will the hearth be safe with a heat shield installed between the stove ash drawer and the hearth according to the information provided in the manual is the question, and undoubtedly, it will be. The OP can proceed without further concerns after installing the heat shield without wrecking anything, or worrying himself further.

Your VC dealer "issues" are becoming more clear to me.

 

[Milton Findley]

Gotta love when the know it alls come in and give a guy the thumbs up on an install that could burn his house down and harm his family.
Especially those with a handful of posts under their belt.
Ins. Co. will not cover a improper install. Its called using in a known unsafe condition, or installed in a manner other than recommended by the manufacturer, etc.etc. etc, they will deny you every time.
If some moron says it seems fine to him, and the manufacturer specs are not necessary, are you really going to go with that word? Seriously, did you post the questions for proper input, or just to see if some fool would tell you what you want to hear? Do it right, it could be your home, you, your family or worse yet, the person the house gets sold to in the future, that may pay a grave price. Pretty cut and dry in my book.
To the morons, you know who you are, I suggest you keep unsafe advise to yourself. Unf-ckinbelievable!

This is not meant to be harsh towards any person in particular.
Just expressing frustration in the years I been here, watching folks come and go, and many leaving bad advice their short time spent here. And moving on without realizing the danger the bad advice they spew puts others in.
Really, this ain't no pissing match or who is right & wrong. Its about safety. And the bottom line is better to do correctly or overkill, then THINK you can get away with less.
None the less, as Gump put it.... Stupid is, as stupid does.

Forrest was absolutely right. For example, he might have come to believe that if he made a lot of posts on a forum, and gotten himself promoted to Flaming Bleeding Deacon, it would make him smart enough to tell other people to not pay attention to simple physics and what the installation manual and knowledgeable people like dealer/installers tell them. He might even come to believe that there is only one way to do something, his way. He would still wake up every morning as Forrest Gump, but he would feel better about himself.

 

[Highbeam]

Sorry Milt, you are wrong. The dead air space listing is great and usable for hearth construction. I used this method in my hearth. A heat shield, however, does not make a hearth. The hearth is placed beneath the feet of the stove AND extends to the sides, back, and front as specified in that same manual that you seem so capable of reading. You are reading the whole manual aren't you?

If you placed a steel plate of adequate size under the stove and spaced it up off of the combustible floor the proper distance then you would be in compliance with the manual. It would be an elevated hearth as has been done before.

As an aside, I caught grief for my use of the "dead air space" as a means of getting the proper R-value in my hearth. I stand by the decision and with Hearthstone's agreement that you can accumulate massive R-value with "dead air space".

 

[Milton Findley]

It does not matter what manual, or what model, the R value for a 1 inch dead air space is the same under a stove, in an attic, or between your ears. The value is given on page 8 of the 8021 manual. Be sure to read the fine print down below so that you understand that the value listed is from an unimpeachable source.

So presumably the heat shield you're talking about will also cover the space in front, behind, and to the sides of the stove? I believe that they include the dead air space as a reference to air gaps trapped within the hearth construction. Please don't imply I'm an idiot when there is no specific reference to a bottom heat shield in this manual.

Your presumptions and beliefs are not my concern nor will I quibble with you over your interpretation of reality.

Will the hearth be safe with a heat shield installed between the stove ash drawer and the hearth according to the information provided in the manual is the question, and undoubtedly, it will be. The OP can proceed without further concerns after installing the heat shield without wrecking anything, or worrying himself further.

Your VC dealer "issues" are becoming more clear to me.

Yep, when they brought out the unfaced insulation for the chimney liner, a tee for an entirely different chimney system, and a wrecked VC stove that they hadn't inspected before unloading, it became pretty apparent who and what I was dealing with. Seems to be widespread.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Sorry Milt, you are wrong. The dead air space listing is great and usable for hearth construction. I used this method in my hearth. A heat shield, however, does not make a hearth. The hearth is placed beneath the feet of the stove AND extends to the sides, back, and front as specified in that same manual that you seem so capable of reading. You are reading the whole manual aren't you?

If you placed a steel plate of adequate size under the stove and spaced it up off of the combustible floor the proper distance then you would be in compliance with the manual. It would be an elevated hearth as has been done before.

As an aside, I caught grief for my use of the "dead air space" as a means of getting the proper R-value in my hearth. I stand by the decision and with Hearthstone's agreement that you can accumulate massive R-value with "dead air space".

Correct. Milt's 7+ R value is wrong.

 

[BrowningBAR]

It does not matter what manual, or what model, the R value for a 1 inch dead air space is the same under a stove, in an attic, or between your ears. The value is given on page 8 of the 8021 manual. Be sure to read the fine print down below so that you understand that the value listed is from an unimpeachable source.

So presumably the heat shield you're talking about will also cover the space in front, behind, and to the sides of the stove? I believe that they include the dead air space as a reference to air gaps trapped within the hearth construction. Please don't imply I'm an idiot when there is no specific reference to a bottom heat shield in this manual.

Your presumptions and beliefs are not my concern nor will I quibble with you over your interpretation of reality.

Will the hearth be safe with a heat shield installed between the stove ash drawer and the hearth according to the information provided in the manual is the question, and undoubtedly, it will be. The OP can proceed without further concerns after installing the heat shield without wrecking anything, or worrying himself further.

Your VC dealer "issues" are becoming more clear to me.

Yep, when they brought out the unfaced insulation for the chimney liner, a tee for an entirely different chimney system, and a wrecked VC stove that they hadn't inspected before unloading, it became pretty apparent who and what I was dealing with. Seems to be widespread.

Actually, I was referring to your combative stance on things. Absolutely no reason to be throwing insults around in this thread.