Help with Avalon Pendleton (newbie)

[ewlsey]

Hello everyone.

I'm not new to wood burning, but I am new to EPA wood stoves.

I have an Avalon Pendleton fireplace insert installed in my masonry fireplace. This is a pretty small insert (1.3 cu-ft firebox). It has a secondary burn tube and firebrick baffle. The bricks are all good and the door gaskets are good. I don't think it was used very much. It seems to be in great shape overall.

Here are the issues I know:

1) No chimney liner. This insert has a "direct" connection to the chimney. It uses a 6" flex liner about 6 feet long to get past the old smoke chamber. There is a block off panel at the top of the old fireplace that seals up around the liner. According to the manual, this is OK, but I know it's not the right way to do it.

2) My wood is not great. We bought the house in June, so I have only had 6 months or so to get my wood together. I have 5-6 cords split and stacked that will be great next year, but this year is not going to be very good. I have some Ash that measures around 16% with my moisture meter. It burns pretty well. I also have some Hackberry, which is usually a pretty dry wood. Most of that measures 20-25%. I try to mix it in with the ash.


Now, these are the issues I have with the stove:

1) The stove seems really cold blooded. I've read that this is a common issue with EPA stoves. It's very hard to get the fire really rolling. Restarting from coals can be done, but I usually need some small kindling. It can take an hour for the fire to really get going. Leaving the door cracked does not help. It seems like it makes it worse. Sometimes leaving the air control at half way works better on start up. It actually burns pretty well with the door wide open.

2) The stove top never gets hot. I bought a thermometer and stuck it right on top in the center. I've never gotten it above 350F. Opening the air control usually make the stove top temperature go down. I can't get it above 300 unless the air control is 1/4 open or less and the fire is really rolling.


So, obviously my wood could be better. I can't do much about that. I'm not going to buy wood. My 16% ash should be good though.

There seems to be an issue with draft. I know I have draft because I never get any back puffing or smoke when I open the door. But, the air control does not seem to affect the fire the way it should (or at least the way I think it should). The fire seems to burn better when it's warmer outside. That leads me to think I have a cold chimney and it's nor drafting right. However, I still have no smoke when I open the door.

I am going to put in a full length liner as soon as I have the funds. My chimney is 25 ft tall from the fireplace in question. It's brick with a terra cota tile liner. The liner and chimney are in great condition. The chimney is on the interior of the house. About 6 feet are exposed at the top, and it's at least 2 feet above the peak. The flue measures about 6-1/2 x 11 on the inside. So, there is no possible way I could use an insulation blanket on a 6" liner. My chimney has 3 flues. I don't know if that matters. Two are for the fireplaces on the main floor and basement. The other was for the old furnace, but has been lined for our modern gas furnace.


My parents have an old Appalachian fireplace insert in their house. It has no EPA technology, but it seems to work a lot better than my insert. Their wood is never ideal either, but I never remember having to worry about the fire. It just worked.

Thanks everyone.

 

[webby3650]

Is that 16% ash measured on a freshly split piece? That's pretty low for wood that doesn't burn well. I'm doubtful it's actually that dry. Even without a full liner it should eventually fire up and do ok. Not great, but ok.

 

[ewlsey]

Yes it is 16% on a fresh split. At least some of it is...

It does eventually fire up and do OK, but it takes forever.

 

[begreen]

The stove is trying to vent from an ~28 sq in flue to a ~72 sq inch flue. That is above the stove's recommended guidelines. If you put a 6" liner all the way to the stove you will think you have just got a whole different stove. The difference will be large.

 

[ewlsey]

That's what I think too. Plus the pain of cleaning the partial liner.

What about the insulation? Is it necessary since I have an interior chimney? My only option would be a pour in product.

 

[begreen]

It sure will improve the safety. But if the chimney has been properly constructed and has at least a 1" gap all around from any combustibles then you would probably be ok without insulating. With a 25 ft chimney you might be able to go with a 5.5" liner if you want to insulate it. It would depend on how clean the tile liner surface is. Worst case scenario it might require a slight ovalizing.

 

[ewlsey]

Well, it's working now with no stainless liner. We had the chimney checked out by a pro when we bought the house.

 

[webby3650]

Well, it's working now with no stainless liner. We had the chimney checked out by a pro when we bought the house.

If it's not getting above 350, then it's not working very well at all.
The chimney is likely just fine, for a fireplace but not for a stove. It's way too large. So even if it's sound, it's not properly sized for a stove.
Why is your only option a poured in insulation?

 

[ewlsey]

The flue is too narrow unless I use a much smaller liner or an oval shape. I pulled the partial liner out to have a look around and it was a pain just to get that thing back in the flue.

 

[begreen]

Well, it's working now with no stainless liner. We had the chimney checked out by a pro when we bought the house.

It's sort of working, sluggishly and dirtily at that. Otherwise you would have not posted, right?

 

[ewlsey]

I don't mean the stove is working. I just mean that there is smoke in the chimney and the house isn't burning down with the current clay tile liner.

I don't see how the insulation would be needed for fire protection. I'm just thinking it might hurt the efficiency.

 

[webby3650]

It's ID is roughly 7"x12" I assume. Poured in is a rough option in a fireplace. You will need to prevent it from all falling out of the flue. That's where it gets interesting...

 

[ewlsey]

6-1/2 x 11 is what I measured.

 

[begreen]

I don't mean the stove is working. I just mean that there is smoke in the chimney and the house isn't burning down with the current clay tile liner.

I don't see how the insulation would be needed for fire protection. I'm just thinking it might hurt the efficiency.

You need to look up pyrolysis. Time and many fires is why the gap is required between the house framing and the chimney. Pyrolysis will keep lowering the combustion temp of the touching wood.

 

[ewlsey]

I guess I don't understand how it's OK to use the tile chimney with a regular masonry fireplace, but if I put a liner it it, it needs insulation to be safe.

Is it a difference in flue temperature?

 

[begreen]

The tile chimney was designed for a fireplace that has lots of air coming in. That cools the flue temps. A wood stove is working at higher flue temps with much less air. If the wood is good that will mean higher operating temps for the flue.

 

[ewlsey]

OK. That makes sense.

 

[webby3650]

An ovalized insulated liner would be a good option for you considering you have plenty of height.

 

[BigCountryNY]

The insulation will also keep flue gases warmer in the liner, which will help reduce creosote build-up.

 

[ewlsey]

Looks like $550 or so for an insulated liner. That should take care of my main issue. Maybe Santa will bring me one...

 

[begreen]

Maybe not. He hates having to squeeze down flue liners.

 

[ewlsey]

Update:

It's about a month later. I installed a full 6" stainless liner. My chimney is in the middle of a 12/12 pitch roof, so I had to make a platform to work off of.

I will say the draft is better, but not tremendously. It's a little more consistent, which is nice.

I have done a few things that seem to help me though.

First, I stopped cleaning so much ash out. I was cleaning it every morning before reloading. Now, I'm taking about one scoop full out every other day. This means I have a lot more coals in the morning which makes the relight much easier.

Second, I've started stacking the wood for my next load around the fire. My wood is not nearly dry enough. But, 5 hours next to the fire does seem to help. Next year will be much easier.

Third, it's finally cold, so my draft is much stronger. It was in the 20s this morning and it was roaring away.


My stove top thermometer still does not seem to work like what I read about here. I absolutely cannot get the thermometer to climb until I start to turn down the air control. I open it fully to get the fire started, and I start closing it gradually as the firebox fills with flames, or I see the secondary burn working. Usually, the thermometer is only 200-250 at this point. I will keep closing down the air and I get more secondary burn and the thermometer will climb. Usually it gets up to around 400-500 and holds there until I get all coals.

Also, opening the air all the way to burn down the coals will make the temperature drop. I normally run it almost closed when there are flames. Then I open it to about 1/4 to reduce the coals for the next load.

I think the stove is working just like it should. I just don't have the dry wood I need. Also, the 1.3 ft firebox is really small. I can get 5 hours of decent heat with Ash or Hackberry. I get another hour with Locust. If I had a 2.0-2.5 ft box, I think I could do 3 loads a day. So, I may upgrade before next winter.