Help with installing my Garn/ piping layout

[BHetrick10]

I have a Garn that is in need of getting hooked up. My head keep spinning with all the different options on pipe layouts.

The garn is in its own building. The Garn will be heating my shop with and apartment above it. The shop is all radiant heat in slab with possibly two zones. The apartment is one kitchen/ living room radiant on one zone above the shop and bath/ bed in the attic of the garage with all radiant heat on one zone.

I will be building a house in the future on the other side of the Garn shed and use the Garn to heat it. I also would like to tie a waist oil boiler into the system in the Garn shed also.

Not sure if I am going to put the DHW in with a side arm and have my primary loop run through it when something is calling for heat or put it on its own Zone. Seems like you dont want to agitate the water in the garn any more than necessary so it can stratisfy more efficient.

I plan on doing all the work myself. I am after others opinions on what would be the simplest/ most efficient set up. I am thinking of zoning with valves and using delta T circs. with a bumble bee on the primary?

Any advice on pipe layout would be appreciated.

 

[bpirger]

I have a Garn 1500, all radiant heat (in slab), and DHW on its own secondary loop. I can satisfy heat calls with a cool Garn, say down to 110 or so. But can't make DHW with this (D warmish water only). I would recommend having a DHW tank and not count on heating DHW on the fly, as this prevents use of the lowish temp Garn water. Just extends time between fire and uses less wood.

Radiant in apartment is under floor? Not sure what minimum water temps will be needed for that....it might drive your firing schedule to keep your apartment happy.

Might want to think about the ability to use that waste oil (or whatever backup) system to heat the DHW and apartment radiant for when the Garn draws cool. If you aren't around to start a fire at midnight when the apartment is calling, the backup could kick in. Given the attention we pay to the boiler supply around here and the need to fire, I would say this is a given for your situation, since you aren't around to tend the system and fire the Garn.

I have my oil boiler in my primary loop still, despite it not being used since 17NOV10 when the Garn first fired. Eventually I will hook things up so when the Garn supply drops below a particular temperature (maybe about 110), oil boiler will fire to meet the need and Garn secondary loop will stop trying to supply heat.

My set-up is all done with pumps (primary, mixing, secondary).

We are very pleased with our setup....it is not cheap. I did everything and easily have 20K plus into the setup. Crazy amount of money. However, as I write this, my toes are toasty, its 18 outside with a fresh 10" of snow I'm about to go plow, and my last fire was 24 hours ago. Calling for DHW right now (daughter took a shower an hour ago) and the boiler supply is 114. So I have to fire the Garn before plowing, then come in and take an unlimited hot water shower. But I'm here to do that....no biggie. A backup system set to kick in sounds important in your setup.

 

[Rick Stanley]

I have a Garn that is in need of getting hooked up. My head keep spinning with all the different options on pipe layouts.

The garn is in its own building. The Garn will be heating my shop with and apartment above it. The shop is all radiant heat in slab with possibly two zones. The apartment is one kitchen/ living room radiant on one zone above the shop and bath/ bed in the attic of the garage with all radiant heat on one zone.

I will be building a house in the future on the other side of the Garn shed and use the Garn to heat it. I also would like to tie a waist oil boiler into the system in the Garn shed also.

Not sure if I am going to put the DHW in with a side arm and have my primary loop run through it when something is calling for heat or put it on its own Zone. Seems like you dont want to agitate the water in the garn any more than necessary so it can stratisfy more efficient.

I plan on doing all the work myself. I am after others opinions on what would be the simplest/ most efficient set up. I am thinking of zoning with valves and using delta T circs. with a bumble bee on the primary?

Any advice on pipe layout would be appreciated.

Congrats on your Garn!! Plenty of advice can be had here so I won't even attempt to give any on what to do. I can help you with what NOT to do.The pros here know their stuff. Listen to them and follow through with what you start. I did my own installation and it cost 10K or more and took me a year to do it and I had researched it for a year before that. After all of that I was disappointed in it's performance. What I ran into was even though I knew what was best, when I would come to a difficult and/or expensive step I would cut corners and rationalize that " this simple way will work just as well". So, over the last 4 years, changing one thing at a time, I finally ended up with what they told me I should do right from the start and it works much better than it did the first year.

 

[BHetrick10]

I have been really struggling to get advice. I contacted two local contractors who were to come out and give me some advice. Neither has come out. Last year I talked to someone else who I didnt feel knew enough to guide me in the right direction. I talked to Keith at Garn and sent him a layout and never heard back. I have had the Garn for three years and its not on line yet. I am moving in to the apartment in January want this stuff done ASAP.

I have read alot. I have hooked up simple smoke dragons for others. With everything that I want to incorporate in my own system I dont want to mess things up. I am on a budget but dont want to do things three times.

Radiant in apartment is under floor? Not sure what minimum water temps will be needed for that....it might drive your firing schedule to keep your apartment happy.

Yes all the radiant is in floor.

I have never had a professional BTU calc done. No one seems to want tot come out and do one. I was told by a few folks to use 30/sqf for the math and should be good enough?

since you aren't around to tend the system and fire the Garn.

Correct. I have a few of my own businesses and dont have much time for my own projects. That's why it hasn't been done yet and I had to pay someone else to finish building the shed for the Garn. I am hoping my soon to be wife can handle it when I am not around. Her family has an OWB that she is capable of managing.

I was originally just going to have a waste oil boiler but cant seem to get enough to rely on just that. I am hoping once the Garn is all plumbed up and the rest of the shop done that I can find some time to cut wood. In the last three years I only have about 6 full faced cord of wood.

How many people use outdoor resets? I will only be living in the apartment until I build a house in the next five years. So i don't want to go all out Cadillac style but In the shop with a 40 x 64 slab I don't want to be overshooting in the shoulder season. Realistically I will probably keep the T stat to around 60 in there. If it does over shoot to 70 I dont think that would be a big deal, but when its in the 30's in the morn and 60's in the afternoon I dont want to come home to find the shop in the 80's.

 

[Rick Stanley]

Who did you buy your GARN from?

 

[BHetrick10]

Straight from Dectra.

 

[Rick Stanley]

Straight from Dectra.

When I said that the pros here will help you, I meant the guys on this site. I had the same trouble trying to get a contractor to tell me how to hook it up. They either wanted to do the job themselves or they didn't want to talk to me because I didn't have THEIR product, which both make sense to me. Also, no installers/contractors around here were familiar with a GARN. Dectra doesn't have installers or at least they didn't at the time although before the sale I was led to believe that they did. They stand behind their product and they will sell you parts and accessories all day long and the free water testing that is included is worth a lot but that's it. The only place I could get GARN specific, free help was on this site.

 

[BHetrick10]

You are spot on Rick. Its funny when people ask what it is (the garn) and I try to explain it to them then they one the door and dont understand why the fire box isn't any bigger. I have dont a lot of reading but some of it just doesnt stick, by the time I read it and then have some time to mess with it I forget what all I read. The shop will be insulated hopefull next week. I have a friend helping sheet the ceiling and walls, and an other contractor finishing the garn shed which will be done this week as well. All my loops are ran its just a matter of hooking up all the expensive components.

 

[arbutus]

I'm not an expert or professional, but I would recommend you see the Primary Secondary piping thread that is stickied at the top of the page.

 

[BHetrick10]

I have paged through it multiple times. With the garn having built in storage i get lots on what actually pertains to me.

 

[bpirger]

I would say you needn't worry about overshooting too much. I have outdoor reset....not sure if it really matters that much. I run Tekmar controllers and I think the outdoor reset really just results in the heating call to happen a bit sooner than it might otherwise do when the temp starts dropping fast. If you have a big shop and want to maintain a constant temp in there 24/7, then I'd say if you monitor the slab temp and room temp you can't go wrong. If you want to have setback stuff, changing the temp during nights and over weekend, you might want to look into the water to air HX. Your slab is going to take many hours (like 6-12) to heat up nicely. Of course this depends on your tubing size, spacing, temp drop, etc. In our place, I'd say the temp doesn't change by more than 2 or 3 degrees max. When the temp drops fast as a cold front moves in, we might drop down to 71 (with a 72 setpoint) and sometimes in the shoulder season we might peak up to 74.

I have my system using no valves, all pumps. In my investigation days (~2000) it seemed the "best" way to do things I could find was with mixing pumps. Most uniform, best control. Now, I have so many pumps running in the system, I have to wonder if it is the best way, and you could do things more simply. Though as Rick said above, when you cut corners, you usually pay the price somehow.

You need to get a feeling for what water temps you need to circulate. In your slab, likely anything from 90-130 will give you all the heat you need. In the staple up, likely in to 120-140 range. But this depends on plates, insulation, floor coverings, etc. But the key is, you need to figure out how to mix the temperatures of your Garn water to meet the need. A controller controls either a valve or pump or mix the temp appropriately.

I'll post a block diagram which is more or less my system. I'd say you just need to sit down and figure out how you want to do everything, put together some drawing plans, and then throw them out here for feedback. Garn is isolated with a HX. You have to figure out how to plumb your overall system. Primary/secondary is my choice, with mixing pumps. You can see in the attachments. You have to figure out what you want to use as controllers, pump requirements, etc. and then a mechanical plumbing layout. It takes a good deal of time. Even more to do the actual install work. Here's a little drawing I put together before plumbing the near Garn loop itself. I put together such a drawing for each region of physical plumbing.

 

[BHetrick10]

I am not familiar with your set up. Guess I got even more reading than I had thought. I dont know about mixing pumps or the way you have your layout. What is the green lines? What are the red lines inbetween the primary loop and you loads ?

what is the reason for the 2" and 1 1/2" pipes at the Garn if it gets chocked down to 1.25 and the HX

I'll have to draw something out and see how to post it on here for some constructive criticism. Not sure how to do a nice PC drawing I'll have to do it on paper and upload it.

Thanks for the help so far.

 

[TCaldwell]

have you tried jim korzak for help , I think is your garn rep, and owns one as well.

 

[arbutus]

what is the reason for the 2" and 1 1/2" pipes at the Garn if it gets chocked down to 1.25 and the HX

Each component - pipe, valve, hx, etc has its own pressure loss with water flowing through it.
Downsizing at the entrance to the heat exchanger won't appreciably add to the pressure loss.
Running all the pipe at 1 1/4 instead of 1 1/2 or 2" might, depending on length and flow rate.

 

[willworkforwood]

... I am hoping once the Garn is all plumbed up and the rest of the shop done that I can find some time to cut wood. In the last three years I only have about 6 full faced cord of wood ....

After reading through your thread, I'm going to offer something for you to consider, unrelated to the install of the Garn. Please don't take it as a lecture, or a criticism of your plans. I'm going to replay what you wrote, and put it in another perspective, in order to perhaps help you avoid a major mistake.

The word "hoping" in your post above to me is a big red flag. I don't ever "hope" to get enough wood cut - it's a top priority for me, and I'll remain 2 years+ ahead on firewood until the time I either become physically incapable to process wood, or else go 6' under. I let some other things on the honeydo list slide, but not firewood. And my better half likes being warm all the time, so she has no problem with it either. Unseasonably cold December? Doesn't bother me a bit, because there's always going to be more than enough dry firewood in the stacks ready to burn. I consider wood burning to be a way of life, and believe many others on this forum do as well. Maybe some of the guys owning lots of big toys are able to spend less time than others on it, but we all get to do multiple moving and handling of the firewood, along with the clean-ups. It never ends, and is sort of like having a baby who will never grow up.

So, depending on how you relate to all of what I just wrote, you might want to reconsider your plan for the Garn. Gasification boilers want dry firewood, and don't work anywhere close to optimally with anything less. This means you need to have at least a full year supply of wood cut, split, and stacked at least one year in advance of use. And more than that is typical for many of us. And the alternative option of buying wood from a dealer would take you many years to get out of the red on the total cost of your Garn.

According to what you wrote, you've owned the Garn for 3 years, and are just now planning on doing a rush, middle-of-Winter, self-install, to be completed by some time in January. Yikes! You likely don't have enough dry firewood to make it through the Winter, and you would also need to cut as much and as fast as you can, starting in the Spring in order to start the process of getting a year ahead. This means you're in the hole from the start. Now many (most?) of us spent the first year that same way, but also were committed to being all-in on firewood.

So this is what I would suggest you consider. You're a busy guy with a lot going on. Are you up for a very long-term wood burning lifestyle? It would be really unfortunate for the Garn to become the hulking beast that constantly demands time you simply don't have. How about the alternatives? Do you have Nat Gas in your area, or the possibility of it being piped in soon? Or, how about Heat Pumps - they seem to be gaining momentum, especially in new construction. If either of those sound like good alternatives, you could cut your losses now by selling the unused Garn - should be able to recoup a good portion of what you paid for it.

Just a bit friendly advice from someone who knows about the time commitment that goes along with wood heating. But perhaps I've read too much into some of the things that you wrote, and you are in fact ready, willing, and able to deal with firewood. If so, then you have my apology in advance, and you can just ignore this entire discourse (perhaps it will help someone else who is considering this path).
And good luck, whichever way you go!

 

[BHetrick10]

Willworkforwood,

No insult taken. I Originally wanted to burn waist oil. Found out I couldn't count on getting enough of it. I dont want to tied to the man buying oil. I did that in one of the renal properties I own and come the folloing year tore out the boiler and put in EBB heaters. I figure with As big as the shop is I wont be able to afford oil and the cost of the garn even if I have to buy wood should pay for itself in a timly manner. Not to mention I don't have the house built yet that the garn will heat as well. Heat pumps have really evolved with variable speed compressors since I bought the garn. I really wanted a nice warn floor to work on in the shop when I am working on things. I guess that alone is why I didn't want to do anything FHA. I have no NG around here.

I will be heating 3,400 sqf now plus and house in the feature. Cant say I am looking forward to making time to cut wood. I figure I am farther off buying wood. The time it takes to go out and get the wood I could have been working and paid someone else to drop wood off.

Not sure how people with full time jobs and a family to raise have enough time for wood. I dont have a family yet, I do own and manage four businesses plus race sprint cars which I enjoy but takes up all my free time in the summer.

 

[BHetrick10]

How do I go about contacting Jim korzak?

 

[skfire]

How do I go about contacting Jim korzak?

He is here under "Jim K in PA", You can email him

 

[BHetrick10]

Thank you

 

[BHetrick10]

If I am looking at things right I cant send Jim an email. It also shows he hasn't been on here in a while for him to get a message in a timely manner. Am I doing something wrong with trying to reach him?

 

[bpirger]

I think JimK would indeed be our rep for Garn. He's extremely informed and should be able to set you straight for sure. Unless he is no longer the rep, but as far as I know he is.

I would think you should be able to get his info through DEctra. Of course if you bypassed your local dealer.......

 

[TCaldwell]

that's what makes this forum so productive, regardless of where you bought your garn,if jim is your rep he is not going to want to see you fail, probably will take pride in helping.

 

[skfire]

that's what makes this forum so productive, regardless of where you bought your garn,if jim is your rep he is not going to want to see you fail, probably will take pride in helping.

Absolutely and Jim is a great guy, extremely knowledgeable and helpful.
I will try to contact him and give him a heads up regarding this.

Merry Christmas, Best to All.

Scott

 

[Jim K in PA]

BHetrick10 - feel free to call or email me. I tried to PM you through the forum but I could not figure out a way to do that with the new forum software.

I am still the GARN rep for PA/NY/NJ. I have a number of things keeping me busy but I can usually return a call or email in under 24 hours.

I am sure you can also ping Keith Kelley at GARN directly again. He is a busy guy, but is an excellent source of information.

Short suggestions for you:

1. Definitely consider Primary-Secondary for your GARN and the waste oil and/or other backup heat source. This gives you the most flexibility to integrate the diverse loads and inputs you have.

2. Heed the counsel from Willworkforwood. When moving to a fuel source that you have to supply and maintain (coal/wood/pellets/etc.) you are now trading time for money. As with most things in life there is no free ride. You WILL have to sacrifice something to make time to gather and process wood to maximize your fuel cost savings. If not, you will pay someone else to do so.

3. For the shop, I am going to humbly suggest you add some fan-coil units to your system to supplement the slab. For that large a surface area and volume you will not get quick response from a heated slab, and will likely lag/overshoot when the swings in outside temps are high.

4. Don't skimp on the engineering or the parts. There is false economy in "just getting it together" to meet some self-imposed deadline. Size your exchangers properly, size your pumps properly, and design your piping properly. If you plan and draw your scheme out while doing your research, then you won't have to remember what you read. Neither I nor anyone else can help you with the remembering part . . .




Thanks for the kinds words guys.

Jim K in PA
(nine o eight) 320-4571 (direct)
jfk at summit-esg dotcom

 

[BHetrick10]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the help. Jim I will be in touch with you. I met with a heating contractor yesterday who as far as I can tell is very knowledgable. He thinks I am on the right track. I just don't want to get it up and running and not perform as expected.

The other year when I purchased it I couldn't find a rep. "This warm house". Used to be but stopped right when I went to order. If someone else was I didn't mean to cut them out.

I have talked to Keith a few times. I sent him some drawings for review. I didn't hear back from him and figured he was too busy to review them.

Merry Christmas everyone.