Hi! New to site, having problem with pacific energy insert!

[TraceyM]

Hi everyone, hope you can help!

Had a pacific energy summit insert installed 3 yrs ago into brand new masonry chimney. Professionally installed. rated for 1800 sq foot home, my house is 950 sq feet. Never really heated very well, but this year our winter is terrible. below zero for 30 days. The inside of the insert gets glowing red, but no heat really coming out. The company who sold me the stove and installed it came and did a bunch of tests and said the stove was fine, that it is burning poorly because of the really cold winter, and that we need to insulate around the stove. They installed it? Why did they not insulate it then? I know something is not right, with the stove glowing inside. Going through TONS of wood (perfect, dry, stored inside). Should I have them insulate it, chuck the stove, or find someone else to come give me ideas? The company then told me the stove was too small for my house, and they would be happy to sell me a bigger one. I am in the upper peninsula of Michigan and finding installers is not an easy task! Any advice is appreciated.

 

[begreen]

Greetings. If this is an exterior wall fireplace, by all means have them insulate it. My guess is that they did not do this initially in order to be a competitive bidder.

If it's an exterior fireplace then they should pack the damper area with mineral or ceramic wool and install a damper sealing block-off plate. And if there is room, insulate behind and the sides of the fireplace. This should make a major difference in heat output.

 

[Xikar]

That Summit should be baking you out of 950 sq ft. Do you use the fans on the insert? I have a Summit and even on below zero days I was able to keep my entire 2,500 sq ft house 62 or better with just the stove.

 

[begreen]

TraceyM, where do you normally have the air control set to once the fire is going well?

 

[Dix]

How are you making out here, Tracy?

 

[TraceyM]

Thanks for the replies. I get the fire going, and damper it down all the way. I have done some reading here and I think maybe I have too much hot coals when I add wood. So, I am burning it all the way down before I add wood, and the inside has stopped glowing, but it is not putting out much heat. I am thinking about letting them insulate and getting new blowers. I have read that the blowers that come on the stove are not very powerful and the after market ones are better. The blowers blow, but they don't seem very powerful.

 

[aansorge]

I doubt it is the blowers. Try insulating and a block off plate.

 

[mstoelton]

Did they install a block-off plate as part of the install? If not you are losing heat up the chimney.

Block off plate how-to instructions are on this site.

That summit should be roasting you out of 950 sq ft.

Note: you should have visible flames for as long as you have wood in the stove. If you are dampering down too early then your wood will smolder and you will not get as much heat.

 

[mstoelton]

Had a pacific energy summit insert installed 3 yrs ago into brand new masonry chimney.

Did the installer put in a stainless liner or did he install the Summit into the existing chimney without a new stainless liner (a slammer install)?

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

What kind of wood are you burning?
How long has it been split?
How many pieces do you put in at a time?

Does it have a surround you can take off? If so use an ir thermometer, test the flue and the walls to the chimney to see if you really are losing heat. Heat a couple of days with the surround off....

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

My VC manual states that if I block, 2 air holes in the bottom front with ash or coals, it will not function properly. Maybe you are doing something to hinder your burning and heat output. I would recommend you reading your manual to make sure your not doing something wrong.
I asked the guy I bought it from some questions about my unit, if he didn't tell me that, I would have never of known, because you cant see them, so I am glad that I asked for some info....

 

[begreen]

I doubt it is the blowers. Try insulating and a block off plate.

Yes, you don't need a gale blowing out of the stove to convect well. Actually the opposite is usually more efficient.

 

[thechimneysweep]

Hi Tracy,

It doesn't seem likely you have a Summit insert, based upon two clues in your original post. First, it is PE's medium-size Super Insert that is rated to heat up to 1800 sq.ft. Second, your dealer has suggested a larger model, and he wouldn't be able to do that if you had a Summit, which is PE's largest model (and arguably the most powerful insert available from any manufacturer).

So, let's assume you have a Super insert. Why won't this model, rated to heat up to 1800 sq.ft., heat your 950 sq.ft. house? The key lies in the words "up to".

From our website at (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/wscompha.htm):

"To compute the maximum area each woodstove will heat, manufacturers use a model of a very well insulated house with 8' ceilings, thermopane or storm windows and an open floor plan in a climate similar to Seattle's, where January low temperatures average 41º F. Any deviations from this model (ie: colder climate, poor insulation, high ceilings, old windows, etc.) must be taken into consideration when choosing your stove."

You say your average temperature for the last month was below zero. Even if your house fits the above description in every other respect, it comes as no surprise that the Super is undersized, even if you're burning Oak at 20% moisture content. Take your dealer's advice and trade up to the Summit.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Well I guess this is why everyone always recommends that you buy bigger than you think you might need....
It's unfortunate that the rating system is like that, there needs to be some reform......

 

[thechimneysweep]

Ram, I can't imagine what reform you have in mind. Think about it for a moment: how else could a manufacturer rate their stoves? They couldn't test each model in every possible climate with every possible room configuration and every possible insulation rating. What about glass area? Ceiling height? Heat value of indiginous fuelwood species? We're talking about an inconceivable task here. All they can do is give a best-case scenario and trust the consumer and their dealer to make adjustments for the specific installation. I tell shoppers to look at the phrase "up to" the same way they looked at the phrase "your mileage may vary" when they chose their last car.

 

[BrotherBart]

It would be help if they stated right up front what the numbers represent and then let people adjust from there for their climate/house/etc. They already have their version of YMMV in most of the ads.

"Your results may vary based on wood, house, color of spouse's hair..." But they don't tell you what the baseline is.

 

[thechimneysweep]

BB, don't you think "up to" establishes a baseline? I mean, I was a pretty hefty kid, from a family of 6 not-diminutive people. We didn't expect the "serves 8" size pizza to live up to that claim. What I'm getting at is, even as a pre-teen, I knew that all advertising claims must be tempered with the reality of the situation.

 

[BrotherBart]

But you could see the pizza and the kids. If the 2,500 sq, ft, is based on a 2,500 sq. ft. house with 8' ceilings in Washington and 41 degree winters, they should just say it. A stove buyer standing in the burn room at a dealer's shop in Michigan can be forgiven for thinking that the numbers mean right where he is standing reading them.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Ram, I can't imagine what reform you have in mind. Think about it for a moment: how else could a manufacturer rate their stoves? They couldn't test each model in every possible climate with every possible room configuration and every possible insulation rating. What about glass area? Ceiling height? Heat value of indiginous fuelwood species? We're talking about an inconceivable task here. All they can do is give a best-case scenario and trust the consumer and their dealer to make adjustments for the specific installation. I tell shoppers to look at the phrase "up to" the same way they looked at the phrase "your mileage may vary" when they chose their last car.

I don't agree with you, I bet the majority of sales are first time customers. The amount of knowledge that is truly needed to make an informed decision is greater than what size of a microwave to buy. There are too many variables that are involved in wood burning. Most people selling stoves do not an adequate amount of experience in this department.
The ratings are clearly off when you factor in all of the variables, maybe they should rate on worst case scenario.......
Burning experience plays a major part in making a correct product purchase.... Not these guides that they put out, more info should be out there in order for inexperienced buyers to have....

 

[begreen]

We had a couple in Wyoming that got a T6 for their 900 sq ft home and said it is just right. And within the past few days we hear of a smaller Olso heating 3500 sq ft. in NE. While I agree that it is hard for a new buyer to sort this out, imagine how hard it is for the stove mfg. to determine where and what type of dwelling the stove will work in. A good stove salesperson will understand this and help the customer understand it. Heck we do it here in a few postings. The problem is that there are a lot of poor sales people out there. And by the way, this is not just stove sales people. You want to see confusion listen to a computer salesperson at Best Buy scamming grandpa and grandma buying their first computer.

 

[Dix]

BB, don't you think "up to" establishes a baseline? I mean, I was a pretty hefty kid, from a family of 6 not-diminutive people. We didn't expect the "serves 8" size pizza to live up to that claim. What I'm getting at is, even as a pre-teen, I knew that all advertising claims must be tempered with the reality of the situation.

Tom, I remember as a first time wood heat shopper, that all I had to go on was SF & BTU's. And that information is not on page one, it's buried down in the manual .... some where

As a well informed dealer, as you are. That's a piece of cake, and secures you customers.

There is a serious reason why I call you when I need parts for the PE. I found the best dealer I could, here, after kicking tires. And when I needed my blower replaced in warranty, and I called the dealer, the first words out of the phone was "PE gives us $75 (forget the number, but it wasn't much) to replace that in warranty, and our labor rate is $250 an hour, so you pay the difference ".

*insert ticked off Dix here*

 

[thechimneysweep]

I think the phrase "Heats up to 1800 sq.ft." does a good job of imparting the most information in the fewest possible words, which is what the brochure writers get paid to do. And I can't believe the average consumer who reads that phrase thinks it means "Heats any 1800 sq.ft. house in any climate."

"Brylcreem: A Little Dab'll Do Ya". Unless you have longish hair, in which case it might take a bigger dab. Or two dabs, if you have thick hair. OK, there are some folks who might need three dabs.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

I think the phrase "Heats up to 1800 sq.ft." does a good job of imparting the most information in the fewest possible words, which is what the brochure writers get paid to do. And I can't believe the average consumer who reads that phrase thinks it means "Heats any 1800 sq.ft. house in any climate."

"Brylcreem: A Little Dab'll Do Ya". Unless you have longish hair, in which case it might take a bigger dab. Or two dabs, if you have thick hair. OK, there are some folks who might need three dabs.

Wrong again.........in my specifications list it says.....area heated 1500sq ft.......with an asteric
The asteric states things like.... Building code conforming homes..... Climate conditions in New England....if you live in more severe climate, these figures MAY NOT apply......
1. It is illegal to live in a non code conforming home.....2. I live in New Jersey, south of New England, in a warmer climate. 3. It should state WILL NOT and it should provide a more reasonable number in order to make a more informed decision......
This is the reform that I was talking about that is needed so that a new customer can make an informed decision..... New people are making the decision on the spec sheet that says 1500 sq ft with the asteric next to it.....
And most sales people have no clue about this unless they were experienced burners or with many years in the business and got feedback from there customers that they don't perform as stated.......

 

[mfetcho]

Stove manufacturers have to list something to give the consumer a ball park of the heating capacity. If you are getting into wood burning then you better do your research. Talk to dealers, get on forums, and call stove manufactures. Spec'ing a wood stove is a lot different then spec'ing a furnace. They are a lot of variables as mentioned in some of the previous posts.