Hopefully your pellet stove installation is better than this one

[elkimmeg]

I get the call in a few days back, my pellet stove is ready for inspection. I ask the location, it is a hearth mount insert type. I request that the surround be removed for the inspection, and that the installation manual be present. A couple days go by I get another call the surround is off. I make the first inspection. The first thing wrong is the flue liner connection is caulked only ½ way around ,where it was done as an after thought, never getting on the other half where a caulking gun cannot reach. Yes it has 3 screws, all in the half side of easy access. I go out to my truck and get my flashlight and angled mirror. Just as I suspected, I can place a car key in the space between the flue collar and liner. No caulking. The owner there says he will finish up the caulking as the installers left a half used tube in the trash. Guess what common silicone caulk? Not RTV.

The next issue is the lack of connection to an outside air feed. Page 15 of the Enviro manual. Requiring it, Failed inspection.

Two days later, I get another call to re-inspect. They smeared enough caulk, they must have emptied the entire tube still no screws on the other half. Rohm you are right about silicon caulk over previous silicone. It peeled off like butter on the previous half, caulked with the common household caulk They never scrapped out the old non code compliant crap from before. The outside air feed they opened the ash dump door and that’s it. Failed again.

Predictably I get a call from the retailer wanting to know what my problem is? I tell him I want it code and listing compliant. He tells me he is not being paid to supply the outside air feed. I then ask him how he can sell a pellet stove that requires one as listed by the manufacturer and he sell an non compliant installation? I tell him I’m not going to pass it till it meets the letter of the listing and I don’t care who pays what. Get it done right. I know this is coming as predictable. I installed this stove hundreds of times and never had a problem with inspectors. Like its my problem, Deep breath here, this response is so practiced, I do not need a script. Are you telling me you have incorrectly installed this stove hundereds of time, and I should be impressed by your negligence and lack of product knowledge.
Am I the only one that has read the installation manual and you are questioning me?
BTW stop by the office and write out the town a check for $60, two re-inspection fees before I look at it again. It you are going to half a** it again make that check out for $90

 

[webbie]

The outside air thing is strange - for instance, I just downloaded a different Enviro manual and they do not require it except in mobile homes. Most companies are suggesting or recomending it, but only part of the listing in mobile homes.

In other words, this stove is no different than the thousands of other pellet stoves being installed without outside air...it probably uses a similar amount of CFM's from the house, etc. -

Just looked at the new large Enviro Insert manual (EF3) - says mobile homes or airtight homes mandatory.

What model are these folks installing?

 

[senorFrog]

What usually happens in these situations? Sounds like negligence on the dealer/installers side. Homeowner shouldn't have to fork over anymore cash, right?

 

[hearthtools]

Elk,
I Know of NO pellet stove that REQUIRES outside air unless it is a Mobil home.

Im not sure if it is Requered to RTV THE JOINT AT THE STOVE ALSO.

 

[begreen]

I used high temp silicone where the stove joined the pipe. That was the only joint until it hit rigid pipe at the chimney cap. Based on no smoke at all for 5 yr. I was glad I did it this way. FWIW, when I removed the stove and disassembled the pipe the RTV, it had set up pretty solid but showed no sign of failure.

 

[Shane]

many manufacturers encourage the use of outside air as well as require that pipe joints be sealed. I don't know of any that absolutely require outside air unless your in a mobile home.

 

[Homefire]

Yep, once again the devil is in the details...or as in this case how one understands what is written and what is intended.
So one never really knows, does one?

 

[Retired_Ted]

Speaking of outside air, when using my open fireplace, in addition to sucking all the heat out of the house, my relative humidity also went to less than 20% when I'd build an evening fire. I'm having my Accentra installed this Friday and I asked to have an outside air intake included - mainly for the humidity factor. Should it help? Btw, getting cooler here in Penna - high temps next week after Monday are supposed to be in the low 60's - quite a change. Fall begins this week.

 

[Homefire]

I would really love to be able to keep the humidity up in the winter.

Anyone got any sugesstions?

What is the perfect humidity?

 

[elkimmeg]

In reality there are no provisions to room air to feed. The outlet at the rear of the stove with the surounfd in place. That being so, where is the supporting combustion air comming from? Certaintly not from a closed chamber ash dump. My only error here is the page number. The supporting info is found starting at page 22 forward. How many installers and retailers want to step forward and admit they install less than recomended listings? Page 23 of the instalation manual. How many inspectors should accept less than that which is recomendes and listed? Are not inspectors protecting the public that pays them? Am I wrong for insisting the best solution for the consumers that pay me? There is enought refferences in the listing to outside air that I am not wrong. The flue connectoor caulked with hi temp RTV is enought to fail it no doubt it is spected. I may be pushing my influences to get the best installation but there were enough code defeciencies to push other issues. This was not a top shelve job

 

[Homefire]

Im reality there are no provisions to room air to feed the outlet at the rear of the stove with the surounfd in place. That being so where is the supporting cmbustion air comming from, Certaintly not from a closed chamber ash dump. M<y only error here is the page number thje supporting info is found a starting at page 22 forward. How many installers and retailers want to step forward and admit they install less than recomender listings? Page 23 of the instalation manual. How many inspectors should accept less than that which is recomendes and listed? Are not inspectors protecting the public that pays them?

Good reply ELK

Would you please use spell check to make your post easier to read.
Thanks

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Link to the manual?

 

[Shane]

Yeah what model is it? I read through the Meridian manual and every where in that one it says recommended. Same with the Empress. I didn't read the EFIII because Craig said he already did and it said recommended. The only situation in which it stated it as a requirement was in a mobile or "very airtight" home.

 

[elkimmeg]

Im reality there are no provisions to room air to feed the outlet at the rear of the stove with the surounfd in place. That being so where is the supporting cmbustion air comming from, Certaintly not from a closed chamber ash dump. M<y only error here is the page number thje supporting info is found a starting at page 22 forward. How many installers and retailers want to step forward and admit they install less than recomender listings? Page 23 of the instalation manual. How many inspectors should accept less than that which is recomendes and listed? Are not inspectors protecting the public that pays them?

Good reply ELK

Would you please use spell check to make your post easier to read.
Thanks

I went back and corrected the post. Probably should not have replied in the first place. It was my field day for one of my
golf leagues, with the grill and two kegs. The round still has me wondering, two eagles two birdies but two doubles and a tripple bogie,
on the 4th hardest course in New England? Too much going for broke and the beer cart, sorry please excuse me

 

[webbie]

Is it the code officials job to make certain a top shelf job is done? If a homeowner is happy and things pass the minimum standards..should that be OK?
I would think the only time "recomended" would come into play would be when you had a real concern because you noticed the house was superinsulated, etc. - Like it or not, most folks do minimum jobs. It might be recomended that sheetrock be glued to the ceiling - but in my experience, few do it.

So, the answer might be "Yes, you may be wrong for suggesting the best possible course of action for the consumers that pay you" - That's my opinion. If you were a GC or a private house inspector, etc. - then you could set whatever standards the customer is paying you for, but it is my understanding that they are paying you to make certain the job meets minimum requirements. I know it has to be tough when you know better, but there is no doubt that the "best job" cost a LOT more (unless you are DIY) and many customers don't want it.

On a commercial level, it seems like treading on thin ice to get in between a consumer and his contractor unless something is blantantly wrong.

No doubt the pellet stove needs combustion air. I didn't carefully read the manual, but I suppose keeping the panels loose (since the plate provides the real seal) would allow for a certain amount. Ash dumps are usually not a source of air unless they go to a basement cleanout or something else that can be opened.

I can see where it could be hard, if not impossible, to hook up outside air to certain fireplace installations. After all, most installers don't have massive demolition hammers in their toolkit (my installers actually did!).

No doubt that all positive pressure vent systems should be as tight as possible - this means either silicone or certain pipe and stove adapters that are designed to seal tight.

Anyway, I was lucky to have an installer for 20+ years who was a mechanical genius. Even tough customers and the toughest inspectors were impressed (not ONCE did we ever have to return to a job because it was turned down) ....but this guy was one in a million! There are still good mechanics around, but you have to dig hard to find them.

 

[recppd]

I went back and corrected the post. Probably should not have replied in the first place. It was my field day for one of my
golf leagues, with the grill and two kegs. The round still has me wondering, two eagles two birdies but two doubles and a tripple bogie,
on the 4th hardest course in New England? Too much going for broke and the beer cart, sorry please excuse me

hmmm...

 

[hearthtools]

Out side air for Pellet stove is not needed. Except for the archaic code of HUD for mobile home use. If you read the code they also require 16” of hearth for pellet stove also because they (HUD) do not know the difference from a wood stove and a pellet stove. Most pellet stoves only need around 8” of hearth extension but HUD supersedes this.
Sorry to ramble but the HUD rule of Outside air, 16” of hearth ext., Bolting down the stove and Grounding has PISSED me off for the past 18 years.

I personally do not like to use outside air for Pellet stove unless it is required for Mobil home installs. Reason moister is bad for the Blowers and Combustion chambers.
Screens get plugged up with Bugs, dog hair and other crap
Then you have big problems and more of a fire hazard when people keep using the stove with restricted Combustion air and the fire box and combustion chambers fill up with Creosote.

If you look at a lot of the Pellet stove Air intake port they are FAKE.
They have a hole that still allows for INSTIDE air to be used. Some for the Older Advantage II Whitfield have a Plate on the inside of the tube that blocks off the outside air from going direction into Airintake.

Most pellet stoves (all I sell) have Surround panels that have Air Slits cut into them and or Tab behind them that keep the Panels from sealing tight against the fireplace face.
This it to be enough air can pass behind the Surround panels for both Combustion air and Convection air.

RTV the Connection to the stove.
Any good installer is going to use a Fitting that has a tight fit with 3 screws.

A good service person is going to have to remove the Flue connection from the stove to Properly service the insert.
with RTV on the connection this makes it almost inposible to do.


Sorry to ramble

 

[HarryBack]

Ron, Im at a bit of a disadvantage, as I only sell Harman, but their stoves only have one intake for air, be it outside or inside....if you hoook up to outside air on them, thats what you are getting. Harman makes an intake thimble for their stoves, part number 677077, which allows for this. But if you block off the air intake with hair, snow, leaves, etc, you get real problems!

 

[seaken]

Elk,

with respect, I suggest that your job is to insist that the appliance will have an adequate air supply for combustion and NOT that there be a direct connection to an outside air supply. In the case of an insert, it MAY be the best solution, but it is NOT the only solution. Manufacturers understand that there are several possibilities for supplying adequate air and therefore state that the connection of the outside air pipe directly to the stove is optional.

Harman is unique in that it is the only pellet stove that can be hooked up as a completely direct vent appliance. The air inlet on the back of the stove is the only source of air. There is no overdraft passive supplies as is common in the other brands. Nevertheless, as long as the Harman has an adequate air supply in the space it is not required to hook up directly to the stove with an air supply pipe.

I agree with you on the sealant. Since pellet stoves use positive pressure in the vent it MUST be sealed. Most stoves have a gasketted take-off which makes it easier for the service technician to open the vent connection without breaking the sealant.

In short, stick to your guns on the sealant but don't insist on a direct air supply pipe connection unless the house itself does not have an adequate air exchange rate.

Sean

 

[begreen]

Elk,
I agree with you on the sealant. Since pellet stoves use positive pressure in the vent it MUST be sealed. Most stoves have a gasketted take-off which makes it easier for the service technician to open the vent connection without breaking the sealant.

Sean

Exactly. The sealant I used was where the collar attached to the vent pipe. On the Quad, this vent pipe collar is gasketed and has spring clips that attach it to the mating stove flange.

 

[elkimmeg]

Part of my job is being a comsumer protection agent. Protect the ones that pay you. This guy paid $4,500 for the stove and install.
I think he deserves a little more that opening up the ash dump door and explaining this is your combustion air supply?
After reading all the responses. I am man enough to admit I may have errored. Outside air supply is recomended page 23 but not required. I have a history with this company and cutting corners, is their common mode and approach to installations. I want to thank all responses as this forum is also my education process. Tomorrow I will call this company and inform that I will accept that current install but I will require the installers provide coppies of their licences. I will also call the current owner and inform him I am bound by code to accept that instilation that is not the recomended one as listed. I will also make the retailer aware of the exact language I will be telling the home owner. He installs the produce less than recomended. Personally I would never instsall any produce less that the recomended way.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Elk, i find that this place teaches me something new all the time, and i consider myself professional, like you. I have been proven wrong many a time here, and i tell you what, it just makes me that much better. Pellet stoves are strange.

 

[hearthtools]

Elk, i find that this place teaches me something new all the time, and i consider myself professional, like you. I have been proven wrong many a time here, and i tell you what, it just makes me that much better. Pellet stoves are strange.

I second that.
Elk,
I wish my inspectors where as knowledgeable as you.
Our just want to hassle you about dumb stuff and make up there own code.

 

[seaken]

Part of my job is being a comsumer protection agent. Protect the ones that pay you. This guy paid $4,500 for the stove and install.
I think he deserves a little more that opening up the ash dump door and explaining this is your combustion air supply?
After reading all the responses. I am man enough to admit I may have errored. Outside air supply is recomended page 23 but not required. I have a history with this company and cutting corners, is their common mode and approach to installations. I want to thank all responses as this forum is also my education process. Tomorrow I will call this company and inform that I will accept that current install but I will require the installers provide coppies of their licences. I will also call the current owner and inform him I am bound by code to accept that instilation that is not the recomended one as listed. I will also make the retailer aware of the exact language I will be telling the home owner. He installs the produce less than recomended. Personally I would never instsall any produce less that the recomended way.

Elk, I agree with you on principle. I feel the same way, as a consumer protection agent. However, not everyone wants to hear it. Sometimes we're just beating a dad horse. I have had some contractors or homeowners come around to my way of seeing things and they have improved their technique. So, it is worth it to try and get these folks to go beyond the minimum. But ultimately they decide if they want to go beyond what is required.

I also join with the others here who recognize how much there is to learn. I too learn a lot from everyone here. This is a valuable resource for us all and will help everyone have a safer and better hearth experience. Every little bit helps. Sometimes it seems like there is more ignorance and carelessness and not enough diligence in the community of hearth dealers, installers, and users. But as we all learn more and become more vocal we can turn more folks's carelessness into carefulness (is that a word?).

Sean

 

[elkimmeg]

Follow up I signed off the permit without the outside air kit installed. The owner did not want the installers back to his home again.
It seems even before my inspection, the installers botched up the installation. They admitted it was their first pellet stove.
And they had only been recently hired to do installations. So they made two more additional visits to correct the original install
Then came out after I failed the inspection opened the ash dump door dclared here is your air feed and left.
The owner ( electrician), is going to run and outside air feed as recomended himself. He never wants any further contact twith the installers or the retailer that hired them..