Hot Water Heater Advice - EDIT

[TresK3]

Got up this morning to a rusty puddle at the bottom of the water heater. All of the fittings, valves, drain line, etc. look good and I can see water under the unit (there's a slight gap), so I assume the tank is leaking. This water heater is about 25 yrs old, 82 gallon capacity (that's not a typo... 82 gallons on the tag), made by Sears.

I figure I'm looking at a replacement and have a couple of questions, mostly about replacement options. However, first... how critical is this? I will do it very soon, but can I wait until the weekend (it's Thursday PM as I write this)? The leak is a slow seep, and it flows directly to the floor drain, about 3 ft away. Or should I try to get it done today or tomorrow? Or do I need to shut off the water line and electric ASAP?

Now about options: It's just my wife and I at home. We have a newer dish washer (Bosch) and 5 yr old, front load washing machine. Low flow shower heads. Neither of us take long showers, though she will take a bath occasionally. We rarely run more than one major item plus a sink at any one time. We are on city water. We live in southern Ohio, so a moderate amount of input cooling in the winter. The current heater is electric, on a 240 V line with 2 X 30 amp breakers (updated service panel). There is no gas to the house. House heat comes from wood (of course) and an oil burner baseboard system. There is no AC.

After spending the past few hours on the interwebs, I've pretty much decided against a tankless. Doesn't seem like there's a lot of benefit, except for smaller size, and some drawbacks.

Now I'm looking comparing a hybrid with a more traditional type tank heater. Pretty much settling on the 40 or 50 gal size, depending on brand/model. The hybrids claim huge energy savings, and with local and national rebates, I can get about $600 back. That brings the cost to within a few hundred of standard types. Main question is would I get much real increased efficiency? The heater will be in the basement, with the furnace and washer/dryer, but that room never does get very warm. I'm guessing low 70's during the hottest parts of summer (like now) and a bit lower the rest of the year. When the furnace is running, that room can be pleasantly warm, but never hot. Any guess on how much actual "heat pumping" we would achieve?

Also, what about this Rheem Marathon water heater? The price seems high... what am I getting?

Other thoughts, ideas, suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[brenndatomu]

Sounds like there is no reason that you need to fix it tonight...main risk would be flooding...but if you have it in an unfinished basement, with a drain nearby, no big deal really.
A 40-50 gallon should serve you just fine.
I like my Richmond (Rheem) HPWH.

Richmond® 50 Gallon Electric Water Heater with Hybrid Heat Pump any good?

Thinking about replacing my 50 gallon electric WH with one of these units, been looking at these for a while now...mine is working fine, but is of an unknown age...probably at least 25 YO. I usually run em 'til they blow, but with the sale right now, they don't get any cheaper than this, I'm...

www.hearth.com

 

[johneh]

You got a good life out of your old tank. I Dought you will
have a major leak before the weekend. I looked at several different
water heaters and went back to a 40 gal. electric. Cheapest and when
I replaced it I was 65 it will outlast me and even if you are young the cost
of 3 basic tanks is less than 1 of the expensive energy-efficient tanks and
they all last about the same length of time. To save, our tank is on a timmer
4 am to 7 am and 7 pm to midnight when our hydro is cheapest We do launder,
shower. dishes and baths during those times

 

[TresK3]

Sounds like there is no reason that you need to fix it tonight...main risk would be flooding...but if you have it in an unfinished basement, with a drain nearby, no big deal really.
A 40-50 gallon should serve you just fine.
I like my Richmond (Rheem) HPWH.

Richmond® 50 Gallon Electric Water Heater with Hybrid Heat Pump any good?

Thinking about replacing my 50 gallon electric WH with one of these units, been looking at these for a while now...mine is working fine, but is of an unknown age...probably at least 25 YO. I usually run em 'til they blow, but with the sale right now, they don't get any cheaper than this, I'm...

www.hearth.com

Thanks for the link. I'd missed that thread. I like the idea of not needing a dehumidfier in the basement - we run one constantly in the summer.

 

[brenndatomu]

I replaced it I was 65 it will outlast me and even if you are young the cost
of 3 basic tanks is less than 1 of the expensive energy-efficient tanks and
they all last about the same length of time

From what I understand, since they did away with the old glass lined tanks, you are lucky to get much beyond your warranty period.
And my HPWH was only about twice the price of a "best" model basic electric...and for another $70 I gained 10 years on the warranty (total of 12) I think the "best" model electric came with a 6 year warranty.

 

[MTY]

How stable is your power supply? I'd ask myself that question prior to buying any appliance that contained electronic circuitry. Here, electronic appliances, including water heaters, are not going to last long if not protected in some manner. The power can be up and down several times in a matter of minutes.

 

[peakbagger]

Water heaters are usually "murdered by" neglect rather than dying a natural death. Dependent on the water supply, they need sediment drained out of the bottom every few years, if you wait too long the valves fill up with crap and may not open. The typical drain valves are cheap plastic that can be replaced with a more durable valve. The sediment can cause corrosion cells and rot out the lining.

The second big item is the anode rods need changing. The length the anodes last is directly dependent on the water quality. The anodes corrode preferentially to the tank lining and other components, once the anode goes, the heater is on a death curve. The anode can be replaced and are available at some hardware stores and on onine. Its takes a big pipe wrench and the right size socket and breaker bar to remove it especially the first time (teflon tape on the threads solves that on future changes). Its on the top of the tank and may require removing any added insulation blanket. The anode is close to the height of the tank. Many builders, plumbers and homeowners install heaters without enough length above it to remove the anode. For these cases they sell "hot dog" anodes which are sections of anode connected by flexible stainless steel cable. The old anode is pulled up as far as it can go, then its grabbed with a pair of vice grips and then the section above the vice grip if cut off with a hacksaw, then repeated until the old one is out. The new hot dog version is just fed down the hole and then screwed into the nozzle.

Do these two tasks routinely every few years and you may get 30 to 40 years off a water heater. The anodes life varies dramatically, I changed my first one after 10 years and now just check it every 5. Other people with agressive water may need one every three years.

A good quality household surge supressor can make a big difference in power surges from the utility. Note I say good quality. Many have too high a clamp voltage. They may keep the wiring from bursting into flame after a power surge but the electronics will be long fried. The best I know of is a Midnight Solar SPD. If you have Delta brand can type, its clamp voltage is way too high to protect electronics. If the local power grid is set up poorly and there is consistently or intermittent low voltage events that can be hard on cheap electronics but quality equipment should be designed to handle these droops.

 

[brenndatomu]

Most people don't realize that surge surpressors have a lifespan too...get used up, don't last forever...

 

[SpaceBus]

Most people don't realize that surge surpressors have a lifespan too...get used up, don't last forever...

Thanks, I did not know this!

 

[peakbagger]

Most of the them had LEDs on them, usually a green and red, if the green goes away it will still transmit power and work like normal it just will not clamp a surge event.

 

[blades]

Surges and GARBAGE on the line - for electronics the garbage is the killer more than the surge. non of your electronics are built with adequate surge protection and very little if any filtering for Noise ( garbage ) fluorescents cause a lot of noise.

 

[brenndatomu]

Surges and GARBAGE on the line - for electronics the garbage is the killer more than the surge. non of your electronics are built with adequate surge protection and very little if any filtering for Noise ( garbage ) fluorescents cause a lot of noise.

We had to put a standard bulb back in the light fixture in our front foyer...the LED I had in there made the radio almost unusable.

 

[TresK3]

Thanks for all the info. I've never monitored it specifically, but I think the electric is fairly stable. Our lights don't flicker or dim much. We do lose electricity fairly often (1-2X per year), but that tends to be an all or none event.

I've narrowed it down to an AO Smith unit (Lowes) and a Richmond (Menard's). Fairly similar price, fairly similar specs.

Do I need to install an expansion tank? The house was built in 1961 and as far as I know, does not have a backflow preventer. There is not an expansion tank on the current water heater, but there is one on the baseboard system.

 

[brenndatomu]

The house was built in 1961 and as far as I know, does not have a backflow preventer. There is not an expansion tank on the current water heater, but there is one on the baseboard system.

There may be a backflow preventer/checkvalve built in to the city's water meter...if there is, you will want to put an expansion tank on the WH.
Does the AO Smith have a screen where you can access the HPWH sensors? I like being able to see what's going on in there...but that's just me.
Also, is the AO Smith as quiet as the Richmond? Last I knew the Rheem/Richmond was hard to beat on sound level in that price range.
Menards has the 11% sale going on now...when I bought mine they had an additional sale price on it too...they generally seem to do that about once per year...and its about this time of year IIRC...

 

[TresK3]

Looks like I'm going to get the Richmond. Menard's does currently have their 11% rebate, which is a good thing. I'll get money from the federal government, and our local utility is also giving rebates to people who install hybrid units.

I'm going to install an expansion tank, but the meter is about 1/10th of a mile from the house, so I do wonder if that would provide enough "room" for the water to expand, if needed?

 

[TresK3]

Thanks for the thoughts. I ended up with the Richmond (Rheem) 50 gallon unit from Menards and an expansion tank. I started a separate thread with some questions on the expansion tank install.

On the heater itself: It doesn't look like it comes with a handle for the drain valve. What did you do about that? Also, it looks like there are lots of options on plumbing it in. What do you think about long braided line from close to the ceiling, down to where the inlet/outlet are? Or should I run copper down closer to the actual inlet/outlet and shorter braided line? Or attach PEX to the copper at the ceiling? Or make it up with used paper towel tubes?

 

[Woodspliter]

I just installed one in my house these things are great I went with a expansion tank

 

[TresK3]

I just installed one in my house these things are great I went with a expansion tank

So it looks like you don't have anything supporting the expansion tank... is that correct? Also, did you plumb both of the condensation lines, or just the larger one?

 

[brenndatomu]

On the heater itself: It doesn't look like it comes with a handle for the drain valve. What did you do about that?

Nothing...cresent wrench will do the trick when needed.

What do you think about long braided line from close to the ceiling, down to where the inlet/outlet are? Or should I run copper down closer to the actual inlet/outlet and shorter braided line? Or attach PEX to the copper at the ceiling?

Any of that should be fine...I'd probably lean toward the copper or pex though...

 

[Woodspliter]

Just used pipe hangers for the supply and expansion tank. There is only one condensate drain on my unit and I haven't decided what I'm going to do with that yet I was just thinking of drilling a hole in the floor I have a bucket under it now and after a week and a half it only made like 2.5 gallons on condensation from a cold start up

 

[peakbagger]

Just used pipe hangers for the supply and expansion tank. There is only one condensate drain on my unit and I haven't decided what I'm going to do with that yet I was just thinking of drilling a hole in the floor I have a bucket under it now and after a week and a half it only made like 2.5 gallons on condensation from a cold start up

There are electric pump units for these and AC units that will pump the condensate up to drain. Its close to distilled water.

 

[Woodspliter]

Yeah I know, just one more thing to run. I kind of just like the simplicity of a hole in the floor.

 

[TresK3]

There are electric pump units for these and AC units that will pump the condensate up to drain. Its close to distilled water.

Draining the condensate will be simple because there's a wash sink on the same wall, about 4 feet away.

 

[TresK3]

Somewhere I saw one plumbed with shut off valves on both hot and cold. What's the benefit of one on the hot side?

 

[Woodspliter]

Yeah I think it's just the right way to do it with shut off for both sides