House fire - options for the rebuild

[lfunk11]

This forum was invaluable a long time ago when I bought a house in the woods and did not fully understand how expensive propane heat would be in a poorly insulated and likely a negligently built chalet home (no inspections here). On Good Friday, we had a massive fire that resulted in a total loss of the house so we are looking to rebuild bigger and better! Normally, I would want months to research every last detail as we rebuild, but I am meeting with a builder this week to hopefully finalize plans. I bought and installed a Quadrafire 4100i myself including the liner inside the preexisting flue about 10 years ago. It wasn't the most exotic stove ever built, but I was able to heat our entire house sufficiently each winter with only 1-2 propane tank fills. For that reason, I plan on installing a much nicer wood stove on the main floor of our new house. I want no parts of installing it myself this time around.

Well, in the last 10 years we finished the basement of the old house but the people that did it did not insulate it well so I had to run a supplemental electric heater to keep it marginally "warm" and keep some of the plumbing from freezing. For the rebuild, I am looking for options to heat the basement other than a stupid electric heater again. This time, the builder suggests a heat pump to heat the whole house (I assume in addition to propane heating?) and the basement will be insulated correctly. I assume there is no possible way to have a wood stove or pellet stove in the basement that runs up a separate flue in the main chimney box but in a separate flue? Initial research seemed to shoot down that idea. I thought about a gas fireplace but that may burn the propane just as fast or a direct vent pellet stove, but I see the issues with soot with a direct vent option. I am not interested in a wood boiler.

I wish I had the time to research this more before asking, but the last two weeks has been crazy. The virus crap has made it even harder to navigate our upcoming rebuild. Hopefully, I'll have my view back again.

 

[ABMax24]

IMO, spend the money to insulate the house correctly, lots of insulation in the attic, ensure to insulate basement walls and floor, at least double pane argon windows, triple pane for any larger windows. If it were me I'd try to run a ground sourced heat pump for central heat and AC powered by solar panels on the roof. This is by far the most expensive upfront costs however and maybe an air sourced heat pump makes more financial sense, energy costs would be next to nothing if the solar system was sized right. Otherwise for a cheaper option I'd still run central heating through a high efficient condensing propane furnace and an add on central AC unit.

 

[lfunk11]

IMO, spend the money to insulate the house correctly, lots of insulation in the attic, ensure to insulate basement walls and floor, at least double pane argon windows, triple pane for any larger windows. If it were me I'd try to run a ground sourced heat pump for central heat and AC powered by solar panels on the roof. This is by far the most expensive upfront costs however and maybe an air sourced heat pump makes more financial sense, energy costs would be next to nothing if the solar system was sized right. Otherwise for a cheaper option I'd still run central heating through a high efficient condensing propane furnace and an add on central AC unit.

Insulation is something I harped on from the beginning. I wanted use full spray foam but the builder said that he will only do spray foam for a coating (~1") to seal things up and then follow with batt insulation and 2x6 studs. The builder controls costs by doing what he is familiar with. We will not have an attic since we are building a barn house style plan with cathedral ceilings. Yes, I realize that is not optimal for heating costs, but I can only get so far with my wife. We are probably going with a heat pump (not sure of the type yet) but I really need to learn more about that because we have never had one. Not sure about the solar route at this time. Our electric bills are manageable but I guess once we switch to a heat pump, those bills will go up.

I appreciate the response though, I really need to research the different types of heat pump systems. I just want to avoid the $600-$700 cost of heating our old hose with propane alone. Insulating the basement alone, even poorly, probably cut that in half.

 

[MTY]

I am finishing up a remodel, I wanted to do some high tech stuff, but lack of local expertise caused me to keep things fairly standard. I insulated well. Here the minimum foam insulation needs to be 2 inches to actually be effective. less than 2" is more of a vapor barrier than insulation. I could not find a local contractor to foam the place.

I used many cans of Great Stuff to seal every crack and crevice I could find, then I had blown in blanket insulation done. R60 in the ceiling and R23 in the walls. I insulated the concrete walls in the basement with R10 foam board.
It was fairly cool today, and the halogen lights I was using while mudding put out enough heat to make it comfortable. Insulation done right keeps drafts down, which is beneficial in two ways. It makes the place more comfortable, and in the event of a fire, it stops the chimney effect within the walls.

I cannot stand listening to a heat pump and furnace run, but I put both in for resale value. Resistance heat would have been worth the monthly cost just for the quiet.

One of my main concerns was the ability of my spouse to keep a wood stove running if something were to happen to me. So the living room is getting a propane stove. The shop will have a wood stove.

I built 7 foot eves, so the windows will be shaded in the summer months. I think this will keep the ac use to a minimum. The place is also white which should help. I pretty much did everything as passive as I could in an attemp to keep energy costs reasonable.

 

[begreen]

Sorry to hear of the fire. That is a very sad sight. I'm glad you are ok.

A well-insulated basement may not need supplemental heat to keep pipes from freezing as long as the plumbing stays in the interior of the house and not in exterior walls.

A high-efficiency heat pump can work very well, but why would it not be possible to have a second stove in the basement?

 

[peakbagger]

Nothing wrong with spray foam and subsequent fiberglass insulation as long as the builder understands dewpoint. Its generally called flash and batt. One thing to keep in mind when asking for advice is that many Hearth.com folks are northerners so our homes are designed for mostly heating with a smaller amount of AC. Our design concepts may be bit different than a heavy cooling environment.

One thing that concerns me is that you are letting the builder call the shots, he might be great builder but its likely his design skills were acquired on the job, therefore you are getting solutions that may be 30 years old. Thinking has changed over the years. The Building Sciences Institute have a lot of vetted design concepts. https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/green-basics. The typical builder tends to use too much wood and wood is not great insulator compared to foam of fiberglass.

IMHO the biggest bang for the buck doesnt take much money but takes a lot of time and that is air sealing. That saves you money on AC as well as heat A builder is concerned on speed and production and that is contrary to get a tight building. Ideally the builder does it but most dont so one concept is to visit the job site every night after the crew is gone and apply caulking/foam to all gaps.

Talking to an air sealing pro several years ago, she said the biggest leakage by far was bathroom fans that were poorly vented with poor dampers on the outlet, ceiling fixtures between the heated space and attic, outlets on exterior walls and floor to wall gaps. Exhaust fans need to be vented to the outside instead of into the attic or soffits and a zero leakage damper needs to be installed. Ceiling fixtures that penetrate the ceilings have to be equipped with air barriers and designed for that service. Floor to wall gaps need to be sealed when built. Exterior outlets need to be installed with an infiltration barrier.

I am fan of installing 1/2" of isoboard foam sealed with foil tape on the inside of the studs with the drywall going on top of it. That cuts down thermal bridging big time. Builders do not like that as it means all the windows need extra time to trim out as the trim needs to be extended out.

 

[Poindexter]

I agree with peakbagger that air/ leak sealing is a separate step from insulation and both are critical to low energy consumption.

I have zero home owner experience in a moderate climate like yours, but on a paper a properly sized recent production heat pump should be able to handle "a lot" of both your heating and cooling needs efficiently.

 

[lfunk11]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I would have never thought of this area as a moderate climate but I can understand seeing where some of you are located. Morgantown actually has a similar temperature breakdown as Boston does over the course of the year. Our house is higher up in the hills east of Morgantown so we are always colder and snowier but not nearly as cold as some of where you guys live.

I am still trying to get a sense of floorplans at this point but I know I want a wood stove on the main floor. Probably going with a gas fireplace in the finished basement as supplemental heat and design look.

 

[ABMax24]

Just beware that most gas fireplaces aren't very efficient, it might take awhile to find one that approaches 80% efficiency.

 

[kennyp2339]

If you insulated the basement, using the prefab foundation, I think those are 25 r value w/ 5000 psi concrete a small gas heater or higher efficient gas fire place should keep it warm down there. If you using the existing foundation then installing high density foam on the inside will provide an r20, ceiling using a spray foam on the sill plate will be a must also.

 

[lfunk11]

I met with the builder that I hope to use today. Basement will be fully insulated and partially finished. We are going to demolish the entire old house and foundation so we will have a new poured concrete foundation. I was thinking about the Quadra-fire Pioneer II for the main level great room with the ducting option to blow hot air through a vent in the basement and one in the MBR on the main floor. The upper floor will be warm from the natural heat rise. I was able to heat our old house pretty good but the basement would get cold so I had to run an electric room heater. However, our old basement wasn't insulated properly. The gas fireplace in the basement will be mainly for ambiance and some additional heating. We are going with a heat pump with a furnace back-up but I hope to heat most of the house with the wood stove on the main floor. This will hopefully be the house we retire in, cannot wait to get things started.

 

[lfunk11]

Nothing wrong with spray foam and subsequent fiberglass insulation as long as the builder understands dewpoint. Its generally called flash and batt. One thing to keep in mind when asking for advice is that many Hearth.com folks are northerners so our homes are designed for mostly heating with a smaller amount of AC. Our design concepts may be bit different than a heavy cooling environment.

One thing that concerns me is that you are letting the builder call the shots, he might be great builder but its likely his design skills were acquired on the job, therefore you are getting solutions that may be 30 years old. Thinking has changed over the years. The Building Sciences Institute have a lot of vetted design concepts. https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/green-basics. The typical builder tends to use too much wood and wood is not great insulator compared to foam of fiberglass.

IMHO the biggest bang for the buck doesnt take much money but takes a lot of time and that is air sealing. That saves you money on AC as well as heat A builder is concerned on speed and production and that is contrary to get a tight building. Ideally the builder does it but most dont so one concept is to visit the job site every night after the crew is gone and apply caulking/foam to all gaps.

Talking to an air sealing pro several years ago, she said the biggest leakage by far was bathroom fans that were poorly vented with poor dampers on the outlet, ceiling fixtures between the heated space and attic, outlets on exterior walls and floor to wall gaps. Exhaust fans need to be vented to the outside instead of into the attic or soffits and a zero leakage damper needs to be installed. Ceiling fixtures that penetrate the ceilings have to be equipped with air barriers and designed for that service. Floor to wall gaps need to be sealed when built. Exterior outlets need to be installed with an infiltration barrier.

I am fan of installing 1/2" of isoboard foam sealed with foil tape on the inside of the studs with the drywall going on top of it. That cuts down thermal bridging big time. Builders do not like that as it means all the windows need extra time to trim out as the trim needs to be extended out.

He is going to quote me with and without the flash and batt but he suggested its not worth the extra cost if you build the house correctly by sealing the windows and outer joists (?). I think that is what he said, but it made sense when he said it. The builder is a custom builder but only deals with certain suppliers to control the process to a degree. I am fine with that, I don't have the time to research every last inch of the house and what I want. We supplied a plan we found online that we liked and he tweaked it a little to fit some of our requirements so that is what we are going with. I will get a full rendering this week and rough estimate. Then it will be decision time before we move forward with engineering and final plans. I harped on insulation and proper building techniques the whole time but I liked that they add insulation in the garage even though it isn't heated. I got the sense that they are a tad more pricey but don't skimp on things.

Oh yeah, we really don't have any building inspections where we live . Sort of have to find a builder you trust to do it right.

 

[ABMax24]

Is ICF (concrete filled styrofoam blocks) an option for your foundation or is that done much in the states? My cousin built his house with it, footings to rafters, it stayed cool in the summer warm in the winter, and sound didn't transmit through the wall making the house very quiet.

 

[Poindexter]

A couple further thoughts.

1. What is your summer time AC load/ cooling need? I know the vapor barrier in Fairbanks goes immediately under the drywall, and I know the vapor barrier in Miami goes directly under the outer shell of siding, but I am dipped in chocolate about where to put the vapor barrier on houses built in between. Or whether to use one at all really.

My house is sealed up like a tupperware lunch box; great for heat conservation, lousy for mold prevention.

2. What is your actual cost of the energy sources available to you? Hear me out please. Local to me I can buy a laundry basket or a bushel basket full of green cordwood for about a buck, and season it myself with inexpensive prudence. The same amount of energy in BTUs or Joules or kilowatts as #2 heating oil for my oil burning furnace costs about 2 bucks. The same amount of energy (kwh/ joules/ calories) for me as electricity costs about 10 bucks. My summertime cooling needs are jack doodle, it is hot and humid here for about two weeks in early July. Clearly I need to burn all the cordwood I can, at least enough that none of the kids are asking for an electric heater in their bedroom. I did offer to remove one of my children's bedroom door one year, that put the kabosh on electric space heater agitation pretty quick I assure you.

What if you got a 500 or 1000 gallon tank for propane? Does that change the propane equation if you only need one delivery annually?

What is your break even time frame for a solar powered heat pump as opposed to grid powered? Will you reasonably live that long or longer? What is the service life expectancy of the solar panels? Battery bank? Associated electronics, voltage controller and so on?

How many acres do you own? How many of those are wooded? How much are you paying for a gym membership? How does your wife feel about man glitter eg sawdust and the smell of chainsaw exhaust? How are your rotator cuffs? Do you have enough acreage to get many years ahead on cordwood for when you are old and feeble? Looks like you are at least partly on a slope, got 4WD for hauling wood?

3. What about an HRV system? I will be looking for HRV filters I can clean myself, and a system that accept both heating and cooling inputs from other household systems. Put a outside air kit on the woodstove so you aren't feeding it expensive HRV output combustion air.

At the end of the day if I were moving to a moderate climate, which I probably will have to do someday, I will be looking for the lowest operating cost I can afford. I can season my own firewood. I can put a bicycle basket and a bicycle bell on my future front wheeled walker for bringing wood in from the stacks. I will have to slay electrons to cool the joint down when it is hot out. Wood pellets do not grow on trees, but cordwood splits do grow on trees. I will have to pay some young buck, likely, to bring wood splits to house level annually from the drying stacks at some other elevation. If I can afford the solar panels that meet my cooling needs and their warranty is longer than my life expectancy I am golden.

4. 3-6 doors for future wheel chair access, 42 inches. And you want two doors to the bathroom in case you fall from the throne and can't get up. That way EMS can get in without wrecking the drywall, and you can get around easily with your wheelchair in the meantime.

 

[lfunk11]

Is ICF (concrete filled styrofoam blocks) an option for your foundation or is that done much in the states? My cousin built his house with it, footings to rafters, it stayed cool in the summer warm in the winter, and sound didn't transmit through the wall making the house very quiet.

It will be poured concrete but not sure about the particulars yet.

A couple further thoughts.

1. What is your summer time AC load/ cooling need? I know the vapor barrier in Fairbanks goes immediately under the drywall, and I know the vapor barrier in Miami goes directly under the outer shell of siding, but I am dipped in chocolate about where to put the vapor barrier on houses built in between. Or whether to use one at all really.

My house is sealed up like a tupperware lunch box; great for heat conservation, lousy for mold prevention.

2. What is your actual cost of the energy sources available to you? Hear me out please. Local to me I can buy a laundry basket or a bushel basket full of green cordwood for about a buck, and season it myself with inexpensive prudence. The same amount of energy in BTUs or Joules or kilowatts as #2 heating oil for my oil burning furnace costs about 2 bucks. The same amount of energy (kwh/ joules/ calories) for me as electricity costs about 10 bucks. My summertime cooling needs are jack doodle, it is hot and humid here for about two weeks in early July. Clearly I need to burn all the cordwood I can, at least enough that none of the kids are asking for an electric heater in their bedroom. I did offer to remove one of my children's bedroom door one year, that put the kabosh on electric space heater agitation pretty quick I assure you.

What if you got a 500 or 1000 gallon tank for propane? Does that change the propane equation if you only need one delivery annually?

What is your break even time frame for a solar powered heat pump as opposed to grid powered? Will you reasonably live that long or longer? What is the service life expectancy of the solar panels? Battery bank? Associated electronics, voltage controller and so on?

How many acres do you own? How many of those are wooded? How much are you paying for a gym membership? How does your wife feel about man glitter eg sawdust and the smell of chainsaw exhaust? How are your rotator cuffs? Do you have enough acreage to get many years ahead on cordwood for when you are old and feeble? Looks like you are at least partly on a slope, got 4WD for hauling wood?

3. What about an HRV system? I will be looking for HRV filters I can clean myself, and a system that accept both heating and cooling inputs from other household systems. Put a outside air kit on the woodstove so you aren't feeding it expensive HRV output combustion air.

At the end of the day if I were moving to a moderate climate, which I probably will have to do someday, I will be looking for the lowest operating cost I can afford. I can season my own firewood. I can put a bicycle basket and a bicycle bell on my future front wheeled walker for bringing wood in from the stacks. I will have to slay electrons to cool the joint down when it is hot out. Wood pellets do not grow on trees, but cordwood splits do grow on trees. I will have to pay some young buck, likely, to bring wood splits to house level annually from the drying stacks at some other elevation. If I can afford the solar panels that meet my cooling needs and their warranty is longer than my life expectancy I am golden.

4. 3-6 doors for future wheel chair access, 42 inches. And you want two doors to the bathroom in case you fall from the throne and can't get up. That way EMS can get in without wrecking the drywall, and you can get around easily with your wheelchair in the meantime.

1. We generally do not have to use the AC much during the summer but there can be some hotter days that we use it. Our house is a little higher up and thus a few degrees cooler on most days. We probably use it more at night to sleep better if it is warm and muggy. I also worried about bears coming in our screen doors if I left those doors open.

2. I am not sure of the exact costs of electric and propane but we spent $500+ a month the first winter on propane filling up our 500g tank almost every month. That is when I researched and installed a wood stove insert for the next winter. I don't want to mess with solar heating at this time, I am not looking to squeeze my heating costs as much as humanly possible. We just want to lower them. If I keep the fire going, I can heat the house without using any propane. We have been heating with wood for 10 years so we are all accustomed to the wood gathering and burning circle. Sometimes I just buy slab wood but other times I go into the woods and collect it myself. I have a splitter so it doesn't take too much time. Depends on how busy I am. I can get a dumptruck full of slab wood (unseasoned) for about $100 - $125 that stacks up pretty well.

3. Our new setup will have a fresh air input from the outside. I am not completely sure what we are getting, but something like the Quadra-fire Pioneer II. I'll have to look into HRV, I have been fiddling with house plans the last few days. The new house will be much bigger so I am a little worried about heating it but the insulation should be way more efficient from what we had.