How many downdraft models are on the market?

[John Ackerly]

One of my best friends bought a Lopi Lyden over a year ago (without getting my advice first) and their house always smells of lots of smoke and I really don't think its healthy for them, particularly their kids. They have access to natural gas, have solar panels and just wanted to use more renewable energy. But its been a bad experience for them. I read all the threads about them and I'm going to strongly advise them to try to sell the stove - with full disclosure of its finicky nature, and buy something else.

Why the heck would any stove retailer sell this stove to a family that has never used a wood stove before and had no idea what they were getting into? I almost think the retailer should take it back and give them a voucher for half the price.

My question: how many downdraft stoves are on the market and what percentage of the market do they have? I assume it must be a smaller market share than cat stoves. We always talk about 2 kinds of stoves - cats and non-cats. But shouldn't we be talking about cat, non-cat and downdraft? If only the insiders know how finicky they can be, its a big disservice to consumers who unwittingly buy them.

 

[MishMouse]

If their house smells of smoke then it may be their burning habits that need to be improved.
I would suggest you get them to have a sweep in there ASAP.

As for downdraft stove yes they are a little finicky especially if you are using unseasoned wood, close the draft to soon, or have insufficient draft.

Do a spot check on their wood to see if it is under 20%.
Watch them operate it to ensure that they are not closing the draft to soon.

A constant strong smoke smell in the house can be attributed to a leaky gasket or their chimney is getting clogged causing the smoke to come back into the house.

 

[begreen]

Another possible source of smoke smell could be puffbacks. Downdrafts stoves tend to be more prone to them if the wood isn't dry or the air is shutdown too early.

 

[jeff_t]

I think Lopi gave up on the Leyden. I remember seeing something from webby3650 about it, and Lopi doesn't have it on their website anymore.

 

[Warm_in_NH]

(broken link removed to http://www.lopistoves.com/TravisDocs/Burn_Procedure.pdf)

Still there....
Decent PDF on how to run the stove.

 

[John Ackerly]

Thanks for the replies. They have had annual cleanings and had the installer come back three times to try to help them fix it. I'm sure they could be operating it better, and so far they have had dry wood, but they are about to start using less than dry wood. The stove is designed so that you can gradually close the damper and they have been leaving the damper partially open, because whenever they fully close the damper, the glass gets black - due in large part because they aren't operating the stove hot enough. But if a stove is really finicky, its hard to fault the operators too much as newbies who just wanted a nice looking basic stove. They still love the look of the stove, which is a major reason why they bought it, and want to keep it. I keep telling them not to worry so much about the look, and there are plenty of great looking stoves out there, but we all know that is a major driver of what stoves consumers pick.

 

[begreen]

Yes, VC stoves are beautiful looking. Unfortunately, like my poor cousin living on a fabulously picturesque farm always says, "You can't eat the view." Downdraft stoves tend to be finicky. They like good draft and to be run hard, not at a low idle.

 

[branchburner]

My question: how many downdraft stoves are on the market and what percentage of the market do they have? I assume it must be a smaller market share than cat stoves.

Besides the Leyden, I believe the only major brands are VC and Harman. Because VC is a big brand, I assume downdrafts would have been a bigger market share than cat stoves (primarily Woodstock, BK and Buck), at least until VC started combining both cat and downdraft technology in their hybrid stoves.

I had a local dealer tell me the Leyden was the worst stove he ever sold, as far as customer complaints. When burning hot with ample draft and dry wood, it tends to run away and burn TOO hot, as some of the older VCs did.

The concept of a damper that closes in stages still confuses me, because only when fully closed could it really be in "downdraft mode" where all the gases are forced into the rear burn chamber. Burning it continuously with damper partly open essentially converts it into a smoke dragon. It defeats the whole purpose of an EPA stove.

These stoves require BOTH good wood and good draft, not to mention good operator technique (deep hot coal bed, proper air settings, etc.). Dealers should discourage anyone from buying a downdraft if they can't meet all the needs involved.

If your friends are about to start using less than dry wood, you should again advise them to dump the stove, or leave it unused as a piece of furniture until they have dry wood and are committed to running the stove properly (hot and clean). With poor wood and a fully or partly open damper, they might as well be burning a pre-EPA stove as far as particulate emissions go. In fact, it could end up belching even more smoke than an older stove!

If they are not burning good wood and getting the fire sufficiently hot, and not closing the primary air in increments, they will never get satisfactory performance. I also wonder if they have adequate draft, with a 6" liner/pipe that is tall enough to pull enough secondary combustion air into the afterburner for sustained smoke-burning. If it's not really sucking, this stove can really suck.

As tricky as they are, the stoves can work as great cold-weather 24/7 heaters for those running them properly... especially the Harman TL-300, which has many happy owners. But I agree, they are not for casual burners or newbies, unless the newbies are willing to meet the essential needs of the stove: dry wood, good draft, and proper technique. (Those are of course required for ANY newer stove, but even more so for downdrafts.)

 

[bholler]

As a sweep i hate downdraft stoves because most people cant or wont burn them right and then i have to clean up the mess. That and cleaning the combustion chamber is a real pita. but i totally agree with branch burner when you figure them out they can be great stoves but they are not easy stoves at all

 

[MishMouse]

Maybe they need to add a few extra feet to the chimney?

My Harman works best when its colder outside, when it gets above 40 it gets harder to operate and I need to run it hotter in order for it to work properly.
If it is above 50 it is very hard to get it to run properly.
It runs best when it is in its 24-7 burn cycle.
Get the stove top above 450 throw it into AB and off it goes.
I do check it about a half hour later to see if it stalled (typically happens if some of the wood is not properly seasoned) and if it did I open the draft and heat it back up.
I would not recommend this stove to anyone who is not going to be burning 24-7 in a climate that rarely see's temps below freezing.
Where I live in MN, we can see freezing temps anytime between September and May.

 

[Mordris]

This is actually my very first post and I'm new to the wood burning scene. I purchased a floor model Lopi Leyden from my local dealer about 2 months ago (fire run red color). This is my first stove / experience. I tried to do a lot of research on the stove first to see what I was getting into and also to see if all of the negative comments I had read would persuade me to shy away from the pretty nice price tag. I must say I am extremely happy with this stove. I'm using it 24/7 to heat a 1200 square foot cape in Sussex county NJ. Temps here are all over the place and the other week the wind chill was -14 degrees. My home was build in 1972 but the previous owner put a ton of work into it. (new windows / insulation) I have fantastic draft possibly due to a completely straight flue pipe which runs from main living room, through ceiling, through attic, then out through the roof. The stove does seem to have a bit of a learning curve. I find it works best with a pretty good coal bed going. I will close the bypass lever when the stove top reads about 475 - 500 ish. As others have said, I try to burn wood that is under 20%. Currently some of mine is reading around 23% and it definitely makes a big difference. At night or before work I tend to load the stove to the gills (on that deep coal bed) and allow it to get charred quite a bit before closing the bypass/air control off again. I have had no issues with smoke belching from the stove into the house. On a side note, this stove does run HOT. This could be because my home is 800 square feet below the rated size or the simple fact that my home holds heat so well. I hope this helped. Really hope they get it figured out. The Leyden, while possibly discontinued now(?) is a beautiful stove and is currently functioning flawlessly for me.

 

[RFarm]

I am on my third season with a downdraft stove (Sedore 3000) and finally feel as though I have gotten to the top of the learning curve. In my first couple of seasons I burned low and slow, granted I was getting 15 hour burn times but as a result I was cleaning the pipes monthly and cap bi-monthly. I have finally come around to starting the stove with a half load of small cuts/splits and burning it as hot as I can get it (500-650 stack temp) - letting it run wide open for about 20 minutes before adding a few larger hunks then gradually closing the damper until the pipe reads 200-250 and that's where I let it cruise. I have cleaned the pipes a couple of times this season to only find a cup or two of fluff, a huge improvement over my past seasons.

My stove is a top loader and one of the things I like best about it is that I can burn less than perfect wood in it. Since the downdraft system only burns the wood on the bottom of the stove, I can place the drier stuff on the bottom and the higher moisture stuff on the top of the stack where it kiln dries in the stove before hitting the coals. Works great with no noticeable increase in smoke or creosote. I do not have a moisture meter and usually cut on Sunday and burn it on Monday. It seasons while it is waiting on my porch to be burned. I am blessed with 7 acres of forest and cut only dead fall and dead standing timber. Most of it appears pretty dry and burns hot and clean.
It appears to me from reading these forum posts that the learning curve on the cat stoves is just as steep and finicky. The biggest drawback for new users of cat stoves is the need for ridiculously dry wood cut to specific sizes, low heat output do to a myriad of possibilities, and the short burn times. Granted as one learns the ins and outs of their stove these things improve, but it is definitely not plug and play for everyone.

On the flip side, even in the nubile days with my downdraft - it was putting out a ton of heat for a long time (10-12hrs). The stove is my only heat source and it as never left me cold and shattered. It still is not unusual for me to drop a 15lb hunk in it and have it go for close to 24 hours. Most of my splits would not even fit in most of the newer stoves. Being able to burn large splits results in less splitting time and more sitting in front of the stove time. Not sure how the other downdrafts work and if they could handle large splits or not, but if I were looking to purchase one I would go for the biggest fire box available so I could.
I have been shoulder burning 1/2 loads the past couple of weeks because running it 24/7 will burn us out of our 2200 sqft R-65 insulated Cape Cod. Our day time highs have been in the 40's with lows in the 20's. I do not even think about running 24/7 until we get a few nights in a row below 20,