How to Build a 2-Story Masonry Fireplace/Chimney

[Fireplace Newbie]

Hi... I am planning New Construction in North GA that MUST include a True Masonry Fireplace (Like the ones we grew up with in the 60'S & 70'S - Firebrick FireBox with Terracotta Flue - NO FIREPLACE INSERTS WITH WOOD SIDING CHIMNEYS).

I am being told this is a dying art... I want the below... Can someone tell me how to do and reccommend a Proper Mason in North GA.

2 Story Home with Poured Concrete Walls in basement... Fireplace is in center of home... Desire for a Fireplace on the first floor with a Free-Standing Wood Burning Stove in the basement... Separate Flues for the Fireplace on Floor 1 vs Stove in basement

Questions:

Does the actual base of the Fireplace/Chimney have to begin on the foundation of the basement floor vs the Foundation of the Fireplace resting on the first floor with the wood burning stove venting through some type of chase from the basement until reaching the fireplace on the first floor?

The stove in basement will sit on a small hearth and then vent into and up through an interior wall... If the foundation of the fireplace can stay on the first floor,, what is the construction of this chase for the stove in the basement within the wall? is it a firebrick type of enclosure that surround the vent pipe? How is this done?

Can someone explain and provide a recommendation for new construction in North GA.

Thanks.

 

[bholler]

Does the actual base of the Fireplace/Chimney have to begin on the foundation of the basement floor vs the Foundation of the Fireplace resting on the first floor with the wood burning stove venting through some type of chase from the basement until reaching the fireplace on the first floor?

Yes you need a foundation for a fireplace there is no residential floor that will support the weight of a masonry fireplace structure. I cant beleive it would be that hard to find a mason who could build you a fireplace I know of 15 or so in our area who do it. Only 3 or 4 of them are good at it but it is far from a dying art.

Here is the code that applies to masonry chimneys and fireplaces if it helps http://www.rumford.com/code/clearances.html

And for the wood stove i would just put in a stainless liner to start with and forget the clay tiles. It would not be a bad idea for the fireplace either if you intend on using it much

 

[Fireplace Newbie]

Thanks Bholler!

Are you saying that the flue for both the upstairs fireplace(1st floor) and the basement stove should both be stainless pipe versus clay tile?

You are in PA?

Does anyone know of a a good fireplace builder in North GA?

 

[bholler]

Are you saying that the flue for both the upstairs fireplace(1st floor) and the basement stove should both be stainless pipe versus clay tile?

For the stove absolutely for the fireplace if you plan on using it much yes. Stainless is much more durable easier to clean and preforms better.

You are in PA?

Yes

Does anyone know of a a good fireplace builder in North GA?

I do not what have you done so far to locate a mason to do the work?

 

[Ashful]

Can you describe your heating goals? I spent parts of my childhood heating by fireplace, and can offer some experience here, but in general it's pretty difficult to just break even on heat out/in on a fireplace. Stoves and inserts are the way to go, if you don't want to raise your heating bills by letting all your heat up the chimney.

If you're set on a fireplace, then plan on putting an air inlet in floor of firebox, which does mean putting it on an outside wall. Without this, you'll be pulling dozens of CFM of cold air in from outside, thru all the distant rooms of your house, to keep that open chimney drafting. Also, plan on keeping the fire going 24/7, as any heat lost up the flue between fires will be greater than what was generated during a single short fire.


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[bholler]

Yes what ashful said even the best built and designed open fireplaces are still not efficient heaters. In fact most actually take more heat out of the house than they put in. That being said I understand the appeal of an open fire but just be aware that you wont be doing any real heating with the fireplace.

 

[begreen]

If the goal is heat, then consider installing a good quality zero-clearance EPA fireplace or a masonry stove instead. The ZC EPA unit would be a better choice if the fireplace is to be on an exterior wall though this is a poorer location for general heating. The ZC EPA fireplace can be stone or brick faced for a totally traditional look. The same goes for the exterior framed chase. A masonry stove would work best as a natural room divider in the middle of the house.

Get on google and search for stone masons atlanta. A lot of links come up. This was at the top. Lots are landscape stone masons, but there are some true brick and stone masons listings there too.
http://www.homeadvisor.com/c.Brick-Stone.Atlanta.GA.-12008.html

All Masonry Restoration & Repairs
(Masonry / Stone / Brick Repair only)
678-668-8208

Paragon Construction Group, LLC
(Stucco, Masonry & Brick Repair)
678-894-2539

 

[Simonkenton]

The fireplace that I built at left is exactly as you described. All masonry with a terra cotta flue. The weight of this structure is about 18 tons and all that weight on a 6x5 foot structure, 30 square feet. This is a tremendous weight per sq. ft.
So, as others have said, the fireplace foundation must be on the concrete floor and must be a stout foundation at that. I infer that the house already exists with a concrete floor of the basement.
If so your floor is probably 5 inches thick at most. Not good enough. If your fireplace will be 6x5 feet, you need to saw out a 8x7 foot hole in the floor, get the concrete out, and make a new hole that is 12 inches deep, add rebar, and pour new concrete.

Most fireplaces don't heat well, but mine does. It is shallow, it is a Rumford style. One big thing in your favor is that, like mine, your fireplace will be in the middle of the home.
To begin with, a fireplace on an exterior wall is a heat sink. On that 20 degree day. that cold air is running right through the walls of the fireplace and into your house, if you are not running the fireplace. You are spending a lot of money to heat the masonry. You won't have that problem with an interior fireplace.

Also, a lot of heat can come out the back wall of the fireplace, and in your case that heat will go into your house.

One detail I would bring up to you. The firebox is normally separate from the outside wall of the fireplace. There is a 2 to 5 inch airspace between the back wall of the firebox and the exterior masonry wall. Well, with this insulated firebox, very little heat will transfer into the exterior walls of the fireplace.
While the fireplace is being constructed, once the firebox is completed, and the back wall is completed up to a height of about 4 feet, simply fill that airspace between the back wall of the firebox and the exterior wall with gravel.
This will transfer the immense heat of the firebox into the walls of the fireplace. You especially will get heat from the back wall.

If I run my fireplace for 5 hours, that back wall will get to 105 degrees. That doesn't sound like much, but you have maybe 4 tons of masonry at that temp.
I have a 1,200 sq. ft two story house. On a 32 degree night, I can run the fireplace for 5 hours, and heat the entire house with it. Just run the fireplace from 5 pm until 10 pm, let the fire go out. Shut the damper as soon as the coals are out so you want to burn pine or walnut, not oak or locust, for the last hour of the burn because you DO NOT want hot coals to burn until 1 in the morning.
Burning my fireplace for 5 hours in the evening, with no additional heat, the next day at noon my living room will be 68 degrees on a 32 degree night.

Sorry I don't know any masons in north Georgia.

 

[bholler]

Most fireplaces don't heat well, but mine does. It is shallow, it is a Rumford style. One big thing in your favor is that, like mine, your fireplace will be in the middle of the home.

Yes rumfords are about the best heating fireplaces out there other than pryor fires which are a modification of the rumford design. But even at that they are nowhere near as efficient as a wood stove. So yes you can heat with one but you will use way more wood to create that heat.

There is a 2 to 5 inch airspace between the back wall of the firebox and the exterior masonry wall. Well, with this insulated firebox, very little heat will transfer into the exterior walls of the fireplace.

That depends entirely upon the design I honestly have never taken apart one that had more than an inch or so most are back filled. For ones on an exterior wall we fill with foil faced ceramic wool and then thermix behind that. But for interior ones we back fill with ruble sand and or gravel like you say.

As far as the masonry lined flue goes yes they will work but if you have a fire they will crack and then you will need a new liner. They are also harder to clean and square tiles just don't draft as well as a round stainless pipe. And with stainless you can also insulate the liner which helps allot with consistency of draft and reducing buildup in the system.

 

[Simonkenton]

bholler is right. Even my fireplace can't hold a candle to a wood stove. Of course I also have a wood stove, and to provide the same heat it uses about 1/4 as much wood as the fireplace.

 

[Fireplace Newbie]

Thanks to All... I am planning NEW Construction of a NEW Home... Nothing has been started wherein the question is HOW to build.

If the Fireplace/Chimney has to begin at the basement level (Apparently it does per the above), we are saying that the base should not rest on the basement concrete floor??? The concrete basement floor should be poured around the base of the fireplace???

My goal is this... Burn the Free Standing Fireplace on Winter Days/Nights in the basement in order that the heat will rise and warm the upper floors (crack the basement door to the upstairs). This will supplement or reduce Electric heat that is not very warm by nature Occasionally burn the upstairs fireplace with the flue closed most other times.

I have a builder telling me that the the fireplace doesn't need to statrt in the basement, and i am not following how all of the weight can be supported w/o the base at the bottom.

So we are saying to pour or build the base of the chimney FIRST before poring the basement floor???

 

[heavy hammer]

A masonry chimney needs its own foundation 12 inches thick. At least that's code in Ohio. It can't be put up on the concrete floor. Is the house built yet? If not where ever the fireplace is going you need a pad at same level as your footers, except it has to be 12 inches thick compared to 8 inch for your foundation. A masonry chimney is very heavy a lot of material in a small area. You need two separate flues one for the fireplace one for the stove. I personally would not put the stove into a masonry flue, after all that time and material probably just as easy to run metal pipe. I was a mason for over 12 years it's just my opinion but fireplaces are a waste of material and money. Put in a stove or like Begreen suggested there are many other other options, much more efficient that produce much more heat. But if you have to have a fireplace look around at other newer constructed homes with fireplaces. Find out who built them, there are still a lot of really good brickies out there, just have to look. A true fireplace is a lot of time and material, when you start looking at costs a stove and some pipe not a bad option. Either way let us know and good luck!

 

[Simonkenton]

OK, new construction. The builder who is telling you that the weight of a masonry fireplace can be supported by 2x10 wooden floor joists does not know what he is talking about. Get a new builder.

Since I built the fireplace at left, and the log cabin that it is in, and it is 20 years old and is still in good shape, I think I know what I am talking about.

New construction is simple. Figure out where your fireplace will be in the basement. Let us say your fireplace will be 6x5 feet like mine is.
Let us say that the construction has begun on your new house. The concrete walls are in place.
The dirt floor of the basement is ready for the concrete floor to be poured. This floor concrete will typically be 4 to 5 inches thick.
Where the fireplace will be you simply dig down 8 inches deeper. If the fireplace will be 6x5 feet, you need a 12 inch thick section of concrete floor that is one foot wider all the way around. You dig a hole, 8x7 feet, and 8 inches deep. Make sure to put the rebar in. Rebar needs to set 4 to 6 inches off the ground.

When the concrete basement floor is poured it will all be one smooth level floor, you will not be able to tell by looking that there is a 12 inch thick, 8x7 foot section of the basement floor.

Versteht?

 

[begreen]

A full masonry fireplace will have it's own support base that will be thicker than the basement floor and possibly with a different strength concrete based on the soil it sits on and weight of the structure.
http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/oregon/08_residential/PDFs/Chapter 10_Chimneys and Fireplaces.pdf

 

[byQ]

Location - Georgia. Last time I was in Georgia during the winter it was 55 to 60 F. This makes a big difference. Your heating needs will be much less than more Northern states. Maybe the best fireplace design would be good enough. There probably aren't many days below freezing. One way to get 2 heating appliances on 2 different floors is to stack them. That is, have a reinforced concrete footing as heavy hammer mentioned, and 1) build your fireplace/fireplace insert in the basement, & 2) build your fireplace/fireplace insert on top of this for the main floor. It would depend on the floor plans, of course.

Ashes from the top set-up could fall down to the basement. You could run 2 flues up one chimney to save cost. I guess you could mix the 2-burner stack up. Like have an open fireplace on the main floor (for effect) and an insert in the basement (for better efficiency). Weight-wise, maybe easiest to have a fireplace in a family room/den in the basement and a wood stove on the main floor.

 

[Simonkenton]

byQ : Nein! You must have been visiting Georgia in April.
I am from Georgia. I built my mom a log cabin in north Georgia, near Dahlonega. Her wood stove gets a workout.
Typical January day she gets a low temp of 25 degrees. Not unusual to have a low temp of 15 degrees in north Georgia.
A really cold night is 10 degrees.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Im wondering if a hybrid design would work ,say a wood stove with a few tons of masonry built behind and on the sides in close proximity to even out the heat dissipation. When my wood stove is going the 20x20 room its in is 95 degrees. Would like to even out the heat better.

 

[Simonkenton]

Seasoned oak that is a very interesting suggestion. I just built an addition onto my house, this is a second log cabin. I got to ditch the little Waterford stove and I bought a beautiful Oslo F500.
I spent many many hours designing just what you described. Since I am the architect and carpenter, no problem for me to reinforce the floor joists beneath the stove. I was looking at stacking up bricks, 8 inches wide, four feet high, maybe six feet high, in the form of a heat shield four feet a 90 degree and four more feet, behind the stove. This would serve as a heat bank.

I wound up not doing the brick heat bank but it would certainly be effective.

 

[begreen]

Additional buffering with heat storing mass is what a cast iron jacketed steel stove does. We get remarkably even heating with the T6. Prior to this we had the Castine and burn cycle temp swings were much more notable. But we have an open floorplan so the heat can diffuse nicely throughout the house. If the room is more closed off then try using a fan on the floor outside of the room to blow air from a cooler part of the house into the stove room.

 

[bholler]

I think you need a new builder if they think you can build a masonry fireplace on a framed floor structure. If they did try it the floor would collapse without question.

 

[Destructor]

A Rummy is the way to go but you must find a mason familiar with their construction. The proportions of opening, throat, smoke chamber and flue must be followed. Alot goes on at the throat, smoke chamber and flue for any fireplace to draw properly. The diagram above doesn't show the funnel effect of a smoke chamber. It has to be a smooth gentle transition to the flue.

If I were to build from scratch I would build a two flue chimney. One flue for a stove and a second for a fireplace, preferably inside the house with the mass exposed. Masonry behind a wood stove will absorb and give off alot of heat.

I love my fireplace. Unfortunately it is an ouside chimney but is very well built and draws well. I can heat the living room once a good coal bed forms. I also crack a nearby window and shut the furnace off while I'm using it. A rummy will at least give you some heat while anjoying an open fire.

I worked with my brother during high school and a bit after building multiple flue stone chimneys and brick chimneys. Watcing him build the smoke chambers of sewer brick was fascinating. I did most of the grunt work but I learned alot.

 

[Old School]

byQ : Nein! You must have been visiting Georgia in April.
I am from Georgia. I built my mom a log cabin in north Georgia, near Dahlonega. Her wood stove gets a workout.
Typical January day she gets a low temp of 25 degrees. Not unusual to have a low temp of 15 degrees in north Georgia.
A really cold night is 10 degrees.

This is accurate for N. Ga.

Also, I tried the exact setup the op is going for and found that I could not keep the upstairs anywhere close to warm enough using a basement stove.

After trying several different setups over a 4 year period attempting to be able to enjoy an open fire upstairs I wound up with a free standing Huntsman in the basement and an insert on the main level in order to keep warm without having to supplement with gas or electric. Just my .02.



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[bholler]

Also, I tried the exact setup the op is going for and found that I could not keep the upstairs anywhere close to warm enough using a basement stove.

After trying several different setups over a 4 year period attempting to be able to enjoy an open fire upstairs I wound up with a free standing Huntsman in the basement and an insert on the main level in order to keep warm without having to supplement with gas or electric. Just my .02.

We heat Our 100 year old 2100 sq ft Victorian with original windows and doors and oly blown in cellulose from our basement and it works fine till the temps drop below about 20 then we need the furnace to help out. But with a new house designed around heating with wood and insulated and sealed much better than ours it should work fine. I did insulate the basement walls which made a huge difference though.

 

[Old School]

True. New construction would be much better insulated.

I am heating an old timber framed home with T&G roof with no insulation other than what little the tar paper and shingles provide. I know I am losing tons of heat.


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[Simonkenton]

bholler: " if they think you can build a masonry fireplace on a framed floor structure. If they did try it the floor would collapse without question."

Yes, it would. You might get 3 tons on it, and you might get 6. But somewhere between 6 and 18 tons that framed floor is going to collapse.

Also I must say, you must have an outside air intake for the fireplace/heater. It is imperative. The opening of my fireplace is 42 inches wide and 36 inches high. To begin with my outside air intake was 5 inches by 5 inches. Well, that would be great for a wood stove. It is woefully inadequate for the fireplace.
I added an outside air intake that is 6 inches by 14. The two intakes combined get the job done.

If your fireplace opening is larger, you need a larger air intake. Because, otherwise you will be opening a window and letting cold air flow right past you into the fireplace.

I would not be too discouraged, as I have proven you can get pretty good heat from a good ole American fireplace, if you do it right. As much as I love wood stoves you just cannot beat the ambiance of an open, wood burning fireplace.