I have a stove that can burn green pine and not get creosoted! Check it out!!

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pybyr

Minister of Fire
Jun 3, 2008
2,301
Adamant, VT 05640
Just so I am clear, I think that masonry heaters are an amazing technology- relatively low tech to build, relatively simple to run, quite efficient, and need no pumps, electricity, or complex controls- I just don't see that they necessarily make a revolutionarily different boiler (or even an optimal boiler).
 

heaterman

Minister of Fire
Oct 16, 2007
3,374
Falmouth, Michigan
This is one of those things that one would assume to be self-evident, given that masonry is more dense than water, but it is incorrect by a large margin.

You have to go by the "specific heat" of the material, and water's specific heat is dramatically more than masonry (about a 5:1 ratio). Don't believe me? Ask the masonry industry:

http://www.cmacn.org/energy/basics/mat_sh.htm

I'm not trying to be snippy, but it _is_ essential to tie discussions and advocacy back to physics, not supposition.

Water's physical characteristics, specifically in regard to heat retention and heat-transfer, would be considered truly extraordinary in comparison to nearly all other materials (except for really exotic phase change materials), except we're all so used to having the stuff fall out of the sky that we don't stop to realize that it has these unique properties.


Exactly. If you're going to use water as the heat transfer medium, why not just heat it directly and install enough storage for the parameters of the job?
 

pybyr

Minister of Fire
Jun 3, 2008
2,301
Adamant, VT 05640
Exactly. If you're going to use water as the heat transfer medium, why not just heat it directly and install enough storage for the parameters of the job?
At risk of playing devil's advocate against myself, I _can_ envision situations in which a hybrid masonry heater/ boiler might make sense- such as when the masonry heater part of the unit is located in a rather large relatively open space/ spaces (so that it can spread its heat easily and directly by unrestricted radiation and convection) but you also want to be able to send heat to a different area that would not be effectively warmed directly by the masonry heater. Seems like you lose the stone-simple near-failproof characteristics of the masonry heater in the process though, without fully gaining the ability that a high efficiency boiler + well insulated water storage yields of bring able to efficiently"bank" large quantities of heat for release only when or at the rate that is desired. Different strokes for different folks.
 
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Fred61

Minister of Fire
Nov 26, 2008
2,444
Southeastern Vt.
This is one of those things that one would assume to be self-evident, given that masonry is more dense than water, but it is incorrect by a large margin.

You have to go by the "specific heat" of the material, and water's specific heat is dramatically more than masonry (about a 5:1 ratio). Don't believe me? Ask the masonry industry:

http://www.cmacn.org/energy/basics/mat_sh.htm

I'm not trying to be snippy, but it _is_ essential to tie discussions and advocacy back to physics, not supposition.

Water's physical characteristics, specifically in regard to heat retention and heat-transfer, would be considered truly extraordinary in comparison to nearly all other materials (except for really exotic phase change materials), except we're all so used to having the stuff fall out of the sky that we don't stop to realize that it has these unique properties.
Water has a specific heat of 1 (one). You'd think you can't go lower than that, BUT, all other materials with the exception of phase change materials, ie, eutectic salts are lower in specific heat than water.
Water is truly a unique material. It expands when it's heated and it expands when it freezes. And it can be turned in to ice cubes to cool my scotch. We're lucky to have it!
 

Fred61

Minister of Fire
Nov 26, 2008
2,444
Southeastern Vt.
At risk of playing devil's advocate against myself, I _can_ envision situations in which a hybrid masonry heater/ boiler might make sense- such as when the masonry heater part of the unit is located in a rather large relatively open space/ spaces (so that it can spread its heat easily and directly by unrestricted radiation and convection) but you also want to be able to send heat to a different area that would not be effectively warmed directly by the masonry heater. Seems like you lose the stone-simple near-failproof characteristics of the masonry heater in the process though, without fully gaining the ability that a high efficiency boiler + well insulated water storage yields of bring able to efficiently"bank" large quantities of heat for release only when or at the rate that is desired. Different strokes for different folks.
If the boiler tubes are burried in the masonry the heat needs to be transferred to the concrete and then to the copper to the water. If you have a bucket of water and a concrete block of equal size heated to the same temperature with a copper tube running through each, which will heat the flow through the copper faster. I don't understand how you can take the heat off fast enough while firing at 500,000 btus. Concrete is not a good transfer medium.
I do have to say though that Heiss beat me to my lifelong dream. They figured out how to burn water.
 

mlbeardsley

New Member
Apr 3, 2012
19
This is one of those things that one would assume to be self-evident, given that masonry is more dense than water, but it is incorrect by a large margin.

You have to go by the "specific heat" of the material, and water's specific heat is dramatically more than masonry (about a 5:1 ratio). Don't believe me? Ask the masonry industry:

http://www.cmacn.org/energy/basics/mat_sh.htm

I'm not trying to be snippy, but it _is_ essential to tie discussions and advocacy back to physics, not supposition.

Water's physical characteristics, specifically in regard to heat retention and heat-transfer, would be considered truly extraordinary in comparison to nearly all other materials (except for really exotic phase change materials), except we're all so used to having the stuff fall out of the sky that we don't stop to realize that it has these unique properties.
Im sure water is more dense but it cant heat up past 212 without turning to a gas. You heat up this refractory to a 1000 degree and let all that copper in the refractory absorb it Am i wrong?.
 

mlbeardsley

New Member
Apr 3, 2012
19
If they didn't work then they wouldn't be still in business. My heater works great and only use 7or 8 cord usually so obviously they work great.
 

salecker

Minister of Fire
Aug 22, 2010
1,476
Northern Canada
If they didn't work then they wouldn't be still in business. My heater works great and only use 7or 8 cord usually so obviously they work great.
I used 7-8 cords....
but it was spruce...
and i'm in the Yukon,we get 40 below in the winter.
 

maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,790
Nova Scotia
Does this thread have anywhere constructive to go from here?

If so, show it fast.

Constructive? Not sure on that but I think the entertainment value has merit.
 
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heaterman

Minister of Fire
Oct 16, 2007
3,374
Falmouth, Michigan
Simply put.......Water is the heat transfer medium in any boiler be it a normal unit or the one in question here.

The difference in a regular boiler and this one is that of the medium used for storage.

When you start talking about those two factors, storage and transfer, you have to look at a little item called specific heat.
Specific heat refers to how much heat needs to be applied to a substance to raise the temperature a specific amount, usually 1 degree and is sometimes expressed in btu/lb or again as Kj/Kg. The higher the specific heat of a substance the more heat it will "hold". If you look at the links for specific heat-fluids and solids you can see what a difference there is between water and almost any other commonly encountered substance either fluid or solid. Thus a given amount of water will both hold and/or transfer far more heat than about anything.

The advantage that cementous substances hold over water is that they will "operate" under a wide range of temperatures. Because of their low specific heat value they are also good insulators which is why firebrick is used as protection in certain areas of a boiler or to focus heat in a given place. In short you can get it hot enough to avoid condensation/creosote whereas a surface backed by water will always be below the dew point of the flue gas and it is left up to the designer of the firebox/heat exchanger to engineer a way around that problem.......which can and has been done.
Obviously the designer of the Heiss chose to avoid the creosote issue entirely by keeping all the surfaces in the boiler above the dewpoint of the flue gas. Not a bad thing in and of itself but again, cementous products have a relatively low specific heat function so the have to be driven to extreme temperatures in order to store the same amount of heat as a given volume of water................shiza!....... I shouldn't try to elucidate at this late hour of the evening.......I will simply leave it at that with the links to info below for your weekend reading pleasure.


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-work-energy-d_292.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-fluids-d_151.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-solids-d_154.html


Below is a nifty little calculator you can download that will convert a unit of about anything to anything else.....included to help sort out life's vexing problems such as converting pennyweight to stones, gigabytes to nibbles, parsecs to furlongs, ergs to horsepower and the heat of the beat of the meat.........nah...........I just made that up.... ;)

http://joshmadison.com/convert-for-windows/
 
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ewdudley

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2009
1,987
Cayuga County NY
  • Rated Output:500,000+ BTU per Hour
  • Unit Fittings:1” Copper Male Ends
?????? This must be a mistake..


I can only imagine the velocity of water that would be required to move a half million btu's through 1" pipe.


No reason to speculate, just assume the maximum, calculate deltaT from that, and see what kind of crazy number we get.

8 ft / sec is within normal limits, noisy perhaps, but quite doable.

You have: (500000 btu/hr)/(pi*(1.0 inch/2.0)^2)/(8ft/sec)*(((1.0/8.33)degF gal)/btu)
You want: degF
51.06

So 51 degF deltaT at 8 ft per second flow through a 1 inch line? Pushing it perhaps, but not a bogus claim really.
 

McKraut

Feeling the Heat
Sep 1, 2011
291
South Central PA
Im sure water is more dense but it cant heat up past 212 without turning to a gas. You heat up this refractory to a 1000 degree and let all that copper in the refractory absorb it Am i wrong?.

Water can be heated above 212 degrees as long a it is under pressure. If it is released to the open atmosphere, it will immediately turn to steam (look for a chart for the triple point for water for more info). Also, as previoulsy stated, high-temperature electrolysis (splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen) is a process that is usually done in conjunction with nuclear power.
I visited the links and I'm still not impressed with their products.

Just my 2 cents....
 

My Oslo heats my home

Minister of Fire
Sep 20, 2010
1,584
South Shore, MA
Interesting read to say the least. That fellow is hell bent on making his product known.
 

jpgarnva

New Member
Apr 2, 2012
11
Central VA
Bck to original title. We have a stove also that will burn green pine, and any other thing as a matter of fact. We mainly use it on those frigid days at the jobsite. A 55 gallon drum with holes around the perimeter at the bottom for intake air. No chimney, no cresote issues. When you get cold, walk over and warm yourself. pretty much the same principle as his unit.
 
D

DexterDay

Guest
Wow... This just so happened to pop up on my Local CL. (Burns anything! !!) Talk about pushing product
Dont want to post a Link. But under Toledo Ohio Craiglist, (I searched Wood pellets and it came up)

Burning green pine is not something to be proud of. Bad burning habits are not taught here. Shouldn't even be thought of.
 

webbie

Seasoned Moderator
Nov 17, 2005
12,178
Western Mass.
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