I May Be Dumb....

[JMJ]

.... but I'm not stupid? Or maybe I am and my friends and family have been too nice to tell me. I've never really been big on asking for help, I usually end up messing things up a time or two first but in the end my goal is accomplished.

With that being said, I have so many questions that I just can't figure out the answers to. I'll try to keep them short, as I have a tendency to ramble.

Quick backstory, we're adding an entire 2nd story addition to our house. I'm doing everything myself, so it's been a long process. The front room is open between floors, so I thought it would be awesome to have a wood stove. I mentioned it to my wife and she didn't say no, so I bought one that was on sale at Menards. It's an Englander Blue Ridge 500. I tried desperately to find a bunch of information on the Blue Ridge, but it seems to be fairly new so there wasn't much. Englander seemed to be well-respected here, so now I'm a first time owner of a wood stove. My questions:

1. I want to try and maximize the heat produced by this stove on both the 1st and 2nd floors, so I would like to put it in the large front room. The only spot is in the corner by the L-shaped stairs. Can I run the stove pipe up and then elbow over the stairs? It would run about 12' vertical, then maybe 6' horizontal through the wall before connecting with the vertical class A, then going up another 6' or so. I'll try to add a picture to help clarify.

2. I've seen a few threads about "reclaiming" the heat that gets trapped up in the peak of a vaulted ceiling. I would like to do something along those lines, is a typical bathroom exhaust fan what is most commonly used? Or just an inline duct fan? I want to bring as much heat as possible to the bedrooms that are upstairs. Any suggestions on maximum length before the heat is negligible?

3. We're going to have mini splits for the bedrooms and main living space for my mother in law. There are so many options out there, it's crazy. I'm trying to find ones that will also provide good heat, as we won't have any forced air on the 2nd floor. Senville Aura seemed OK, especially for the price, but they claim it's not a DIY install.... I'm very (maybe overly) confident in my capabilities with figuring things out, but maybe that's too much for a nail-bender like me to figure out?

I had another question but I forgot what it was. Thank you so much for taking the time to read this far, I apologize for being long-winded! This forum has been an absolute wealth of knowledge, and I appreciate each and every one of you who help others out!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
+JMJ+

 

[JMJ]

Here's the main living area with the proposed stove location.

 

[begreen]

First things first. The goal needs to be to install the stove safely. Long horizonta runs of stovepipe are not a good idea. From a design standpoint, the stove location is not great, especially for first floor heating. Hot air it going to go straight up to the celing. If the stove can be located in a large open room of the first floor, it will do a much better job of evenly heating the home. Considering the second floor is all new, look for places where a chased chimney pipe could run. This could be the corner of a room, or in a closet or kneewall space.

How many square feet will the finished house be? This is a large heater, Internally, it is almost identical to the big Drolets and Osburns.

 

[stoveliker]

18 ft vertical and 6 ft horizontal won't work (ever).
Look at what the stove needs (manual; most are 15 ft).
As a general rule of thumb, every 90 deg elbow adds 2 ft to that minimum. And every ft of horizontal run adds 2 ft to that minimum too.
This means that if your required minimum is 15 ft (at sea level), you would have to add 16 ft of height to that with two elbows and a 6 ft horizontal run.
And I'm not sure draft will start up properly even to get things going at such a long horizontal run (pushing warm air 6 ft sideways may not be easy).

Also, I would instead put a big ceiling fan up there to push heat down, rather than starting to work with ducts - ducted heat transport generally works best for larger temperature differences (between in the duct and in the room).

If you need to transport heat to places that are walled off, I would instead such cold air from the floors of those rooms and deposit that near the stove. That (in those colder rooms) will (automatically) be replenished by warmer air coming in through a cracked open door. (Though note that through the floor holes may need fire dampers etc. as your (wood) floor structure is in fact a fire barrier - it'll slow down the spread of fire, but a hole negates that.)

Regarding minisplits, there's a few other threads here (search mini split in titles only).
One of them is particular to self-install:

Thread 'Have You Installed Your Own Heat Pump'

Friday at 6:35 PM

If you installed your own system or parts of it, please link to your install thread.

• hobbyheater
• Replies: 7
• Forum: The Green Room

Seems out of the league of most DIYers, unless you buy a Mr. Cool as they are geared to self-install.

 

[JMJ]

I absolutely agree, safety first. This being a house built in the 60s, there was nothing close to an "open floorplan". With 8 going on 9 kids, we prioritized bedrooms over open space. Where the stove is now IS the largest room. We have an 8' ceiling fan that will be hanging from the vaulted ceiling in that room to help air movement. I'm not too concerned about heat on the first floor, the forced air is working and there are plans to install hydronic floor heating in the next few years. I was hoping to figure out a way that the stove could be more than just supplemental heat, but not quite main source. Total square footage will be about 3,600. There have been a few changes made to the layout, but this is essentially what we have. First floor is nearly identical.

 

[JMJ]

This taped-off spot was my initial location, but the hearth cuts into the walkway quite a bit.

 

[begreen]

It's far from ideal. The wood stove is primarily an area heater and the BR500 is a big heater. My concern is that this will end up creating a hot hallway and diminishing heat in the rooms. The far bedrooms will get a bit of heat, but not a lot. The MIL apartment, not much at all.

 

[John Lehet]

It is absolutely possible to install mini splits yourself. I did it with a <$1k Pioneer brand small unit I got to air condition a second floor room my wife uses as a gym, which does not have windows suitable for a window unit. We can also get some heat out of it in shoulder seasons. It's not a cold weather unit or an excellent one. You'll need some specialized HVAC/refrigeration equipment -- a vacuum pump and some gauges. Not terribly expensive vs the money you save in an install.

I have two Fujitsu cold weather units I got installed by a pro. The installation was about a 100% markup on the price of the units, or more. Two guys did it, and they got a very good hourly pay, but it was worth it to me. For a bigger sized unit, like you would use to get real heat out of, the outside unit will be heavy, and the head unit will be ungainly. These Fujitsu units get a 10 year warranty if installed by a pro, zero warranty if self installed. It would have been hard to do by myself with these bigger units.

My ex brother in law owns apartment buildings and put mini splits in them, and also his home. He is handy, so he figured out how to do DIY. These are "real" units, not like the dinky little one I installed. He figured with what he saves on installation, on his scale, he can afford to simply replace units that fail without warranty.

I think the hardest thing about mini splits, maybe like wood stoves, is choosing the right one. The shopping is hard. Sizing appropriately is hard. Quality varies, as does efficiency. One resource is the NEEP site https://ashp.neep.org/#!/

 

[JMJ]

It's far from ideal. The wood stove is primarily an area heater and the BR500 is a big heater. My concern is that this will end up creating a hot hallway and diminishing heat in the rooms. The far bedrooms will get a bit of heat, but not a lot. The MIL apartment, not much at all.

Would putting transoms over the bedroom doors do anything? Maybe having some ductwork lower in the bedrooms to suck cooler air out? From what I've gathered in other threads, moving warm air is harder than moving cool air, but warm air will replace cool air if you remove it from the room. I'm trying to avoid this being a COMPLETE waste of money....

 

[stoveliker]

yes, in my view that combo has a probability it could work.
But you'd have to have some dedicated short ducting with quite a few branches (sucking from the floors in the bedrooms) and similar from the MIL rooms.
Even then one needs to run these fans constantly (at a low speed) and it'll take quite a while (hours) for the temps to get measurably higher in those rooms. This works best for continuous stove running and continuous low speed fans (imo).

 

[begreen]

Process thinking here, just supposing. 3600 sq ft is a large house. It sounds like there might be a basement if there is a warm air furnace already servicing the first floor. How is the access to the basement from outdoors? If good, would a wood furnace be an option. If ducting is a considered option to move the heat anyway, what about a supply duct chased up to the 2nd floor?

 

[JMJ]

Process thinking here, just supposing. 3600 sq ft is a large house. It sounds like there might be a basement if there is a warm air furnace already servicing the first floor. How is the access to the basement from outdoors? If good, would a wood furnace be an option. If ducting is a considered option to move the heat anyway, what about a supply duct chased up to the 2nd floor?

There is a basement but no access from outdoors. There are 4 tiny windows that let in more water than light.... I'm not quite ready to start any sort of basement access project at this moment 😅 I honestly have no idea how much wood a wood furnace goes through. Are we talking a few wheel barrow fulls per day?

 

[begreen]

Wood consumption depends on the home size, its heat loss, the furnace design and size, wood species burned, plus how hard the furnace is being pushed for heat. We have a wood boiler and furnace forum where users could give you some numbers for your area. I would imagine with a good furnace maybe 30-40# a day in cold weather, less in milder weather. In below zero windy weather that could be 80#+ per day.

The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces

This Forum is for the topic of Central Heating - specifically with wood, coal, pellets, corn and other solid fuels. We can also discuss multi-fuel systems, which burn oil and gas along with solid fuels. If you are looking to heat your entire house evenly from one location outside the living...

www.hearth.com

 

[stoveliker]

In the end, wood consumption won't be very different between a furnace and a stove that heats the whole house (...)
Their efficiencies are similar so the fraction of heat into the home versus out of the flue won't be that different.
Even if a large efficiency difference of 10% exists, that'd be hardly noticeable.

 

[GG Woody]

Our stoves are not in ideal locations as the house is a bit weird, actually a large addition (90's) on a small house. (70's)
I'm not sure that any of our rooms stay a perfect temperature, and it's not a big deal for us.
The furnace does do a real good job at evening the temperature out, but we haven't ran it or the heat pump since mid October.
One kids room is too hot so I tell him to run his ceiling fan and try to keep his door open more, the other kids room is too cold so I tell him to do the same.
I would get the stove in a safe location where it runs/vents efficiently, fire it up, and see what compromises you are willing to make.

 

[John Lehet]

In terms of pounds of wood, I’m guessing that number above is low. I don’t know how many people here are weighing their wood, but I started doing it about a month or so ago. I’m in a colder than average climate, so…

Heating a small-sh space but with complex mix of insulation successes and vulnerabilities, a 150 year old structure with energy retrofits. There is an 80s addition, minimally heated, with a not-full-length curtain providing a heat buffer between the two structures. (Rooms in that addition are heated as-needed with oil). The addition pulls some heat from the living space, but that is 40s-50s F.

With the old Jotul 3 CB I was burning about 55 pounds in 12 or 14 hours. About as much wood as I could feed that little stove, and no point in feeding it at night, with some coaling breaks in milder weather. At night the mini splits carried the load. That kept the downstairs between 65 and 70F while the upstairs bedroom needed the mini split 24/7 to stay 66F

Now with the more efficient Progress Hybrid I’m burning 55 to 70 pounds of wood per day on a 24 hour burn cycle (the stove has not cooled since the last break in fire on 12/26). This is keeping the downstairs between 72 and 75, and the upstairs between 66 and 68 with no mini split use at all. Much of this has been in cold weather, some nights down to 0F, days in the teens until this warmer stretch. To do this I’m running the Progress nearly as low as I can, with long coaling intervals between fueling (longer intervals and smaller loads in milder weather like today). Stove top rarely over 400F. Burning more wood than the Jotul but far less electricity to heat it warmer. The night load accounts for 20 to 30 pounds of that, wood instead of mini split electricity in cold weather.

All of this to say the Progress Hybrid could easily heat a much bigger house if run harder, but it would take a lot of wood. I’m guessing I would put well over 100 or 150 pounds a day through it to heat a large house. Here in Vermont, anyway, unless the structure was quite perfectly insulated with minimal windows.

 

[begreen]

Thanks John, you're right. The OP's house is in Wisconsin not the more temperate PacNW and it's a big place. The weight of wood could be double the guess I posted.

 

[JMJ]

In terms of pounds of wood, I’m guessing that number above is low. I don’t know how many people here are weighing their wood, but I started doing it about a month or so ago. I’m in a colder than average climate, so…

Heating a small-sh space but with complex mix of insulation successes and vulnerabilities, a 150 year old structure with energy retrofits. There is an 80s addition, minimally heated, with a not-full-length curtain providing a heat buffer between the two structures. (Rooms in that addition are heated as-needed with oil). The addition pulls some heat from the living space, but that is 40s-50s F.

With the old Jotul 3 CB I was burning about 55 pounds in 12 or 14 hours. About as much wood as I could feed that little stove, and no point in feeding it at night, with some coaling breaks in milder weather. At night the mini splits carried the load. That kept the downstairs between 65 and 70F while the upstairs bedroom needed the mini split 24/7 to stay 66F

Now with the more efficient Progress Hybrid I’m burning 55 to 70 pounds of wood per day on a 24 hour burn cycle (the stove has not cooled since the last break in fire on 12/26). This is keeping the downstairs between 72 and 75, and the upstairs between 66 and 68 with no mini split use at all. Much of this has been in cold weather, some nights down to 0F, days in the teens until this warmer stretch. To do this I’m running the Progress nearly as low as I can, with long coaling intervals between fueling (longer intervals and smaller loads in milder weather like today). Stove top rarely over 400F. Burning more wood than the Jotul but far less electricity to heat it warmer. The night load accounts for 20 to 30 pounds of that, wood instead of mini split electricity in cold weather.

All of this to say the Progress Hybrid could easily heat a much bigger house if run harder, but it would take a lot of wood. I’m guessing I would put well over 100 or 150 pounds a day through it to heat a large house. Here in Vermont, anyway, unless the structure was quite perfectly insulated with minimal windows.

Thanks for the info. What mini splits do you have and how do you like them? How well do they work in the cold?

 

[JMJ]

So here's where I'm at now:

Checking through the manual with the stove, they have a maximum horizontal length listed at 10'. I'm sure there are other factors to think about if planning to use the whole 10' (elbows, total vertical height, etc.) but what about using 2 45* elbows? What if I went dead vertical for maybe 10', then 45 connected to a 4' section, then another 45 connected to the "true" horizontal, which would be more like a 3' run? Or some variation of those distances. Does a 45 have the same negative effect of a 90, which the manual suggests to avoid like the plague?

Regarding warm air to the bedrooms, the old chimney chase is located behind the hall closet between 2 bedrooms. If I put in a grille on the wall low to the ground in each room with a duct fan to suck cold air out of the rooms, would a "passive" duct system in the peak of the main room with outlets in each bedroom ceiling be effective? I would probably keep it out of the attic, maybe build it into the fake beam that's going up there. Or would the air cool too much to be useful? It's maybe a 25' run. Similar concept to a Shop Vac with an extension hose on it. This is where the "I may be dumb...." statement might come into play, feel free to let me know if I'm venturing into being stupid! 🤣

 

[GG Woody]

So here's where I'm at now:

Checking through the manual with the stove, they have a maximum horizontal length listed at 10'. I'm sure there are other factors to think about if planning to use the whole 10' (elbows, total vertical height, etc.) but what about using 2 45* elbows? What if I went dead vertical for maybe 10', then 45 connected to a 4' section, then another 45 connected to the "true" horizontal, which would be more like a 3' run? Or some variation of those distances. Does a 45 have the same negative effect of a 90, which the manual suggests to avoid like the plague?

Regarding warm air to the bedrooms, the old chimney chase is located behind the hall closet between 2 bedrooms. If I put in a grille on the wall low to the ground in each room with a duct fan to suck cold air out of the rooms, would a "passive" duct system in the peak of the main room with outlets in each bedroom ceiling be effective? I would probably keep it out of the attic, maybe build it into the fake beam that's going up there. Or would the air cool too much to be useful? It's maybe a 25' run. Similar concept to a Shop Vac with an extension hose on it. This is where the "I may be dumb...." statement might come into play, feel free to let me know if I'm venturing into being stupid! 🤣

Your venting strategy is sounding more like something that would work, but sounds like a nightmare to sweep/clean.

It is surprisingly hard to transfer cool air, replace with slightly warmer air and get desirable effects. I'm certain that will work to some extent but the hassle may not be worth it? Many variables, how big of a fan, temp differential you are looking for, heat loss, insulation, fan noise... I do work in sheet metal/HVAC

 

[JMJ]

Your venting strategy is sounding more like something that would work, but sounds like a nightmare to sweep/clean.

It is surprisingly hard to transfer cool air, replace with slightly warmer air and get desirable effects. I'm certain that will work to some extent but the hassle may not be worth it? Many variables, how big of a fan, temp differential you are looking for, heat loss, insulation, fan noise... I do work in sheet metal/HVAC

So you're saying there's a chance! I'm thinking if I plan it right, I could clean the warm air ducts from the attic and the cool air from the basement.... sounds like it might be the best bet, what's the worst that could happen? I'm all for trying it and seeing how it works. How crucial would you say it is to match duct sizes for the warm and cool air? If I plan for 6" warm duct for 2 bedrooms, should I use something larger for the cool duct? 8"? 10"?

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

I extracted the page from the BK manual that shows how to calculate the effects of elevation, elbows, vertical and horizontal stovepipe/ chimney and how it affects draft and optimal chimney height. You will always need two 45 pipes to reach vertical from horizontal. and then there is the 3-2-10 rule on the roof to be considered.

 

[JMJ]

I extracted the page from the BK manual that shows how to calculate the effects of elevation, elbows, vertical and horizontal stovepipe/ chimney and how it affects draft and optimal chimney height. You will always need two 45 pipes to reach vertical from horizontal. and then there is the 3-2-10 rule on the roof to be considered.

Thanks for sharing. It's looking more and more like my options are either:

A) move the stove to a new location
or
2) vent straight up through the roof

Or create a listing for a brand new, never used Englander Blue Ridge 500 for sale....

 

[begreen]

What is the size, fuel source, and condition of the existing furnace? Has the thought of a zoned, ducted heat pump been consided for the new bedrooms? In that case the heatpump would be sized for the house (4 ton?) with the existing system as a 2nd stage backup. The benefit of this would be AC for the house. The MIL could still be a separate ,2 head, minisplit system.

What is the planned use for the woodstove? Back up heat for extra cold weather, primary source 24/7 burning?
How often does power go out in this area?

Do you have a sketch of the first floor plan that includes the old chimney chase location?

 

[John Lehet]

Thanks for the info. What mini splits do you have and how do you like them? How well do they work in the cold?

I have a 15K BTU and a 12K Fujitsu cold weather mini split, the bigger one downstairs in the small “great room” and the smaller one upstairs in the bedroom. They are about 5 years old now, so they may be superseded by slightly more efficient models, not sure. We got them for shoulder season and AC, and they are perfect for that. (Used to be that in Vermont nobody had air conditioning, and now everyone needs it). Both AC and efficiency for heating in temps above 40 are amazing, quite cheap to run. As it starts to get below 30, they struggle to provide the comfort of the woodstove and we start to feel like making fires. They save us from making countless small fires in shoulder season, on days when we wouldn’t run the stove all day. We have had some brutal heat waves every summer since getting them, and they have saved our butts.

Partly this is the nature of mini splits in a not-superinsulated house to be less comfortable in real cold. The air in the room stratifies. Warm air rises, and the mini split head units are up by the ceiling. That is the temperature they sense and run by. So you can set it for 70, and it’s 70 at the unit, but not 70 in my chair. So it becomes a bit of a moving target to find a temp setting that will provide comfort. At our electric rates, $.22/kwh, the mini splits are cheaper to run than purchased cordwood down to I guess about 30 or 35 degrees (COP 3.5 anyway). Below that and they are more expensive to run than purchased firewood. I’ve been cutting my own firewood for the last years, so I should figure firewood is either more expensive or less expensive, depending on how I feel like valuing my time. Mini splits are cheaper than oil heat down to about 5F and then the expense of running them goes up and they can’t meet demand so well anymore. Before I got the Progress Hybrid I used them to dovetail with the old wood stove, and used them at night, set to 66. They could usually hold 66 in here down to 5F or so. At 0F and below, I shut them off and used strictly wood and oil, both of which are cheaper and more effective, but the mini splits running hard at that temp do a brave job. These units can still provide 12k and 15k of heat respectively all the way down to -15F. But at that temp I need more than 15k of heat anyway, and they are less efficient.

The other thing that happens with mini splits as the temps get below freezing, depending on humidity, is that the outdoor units freeze, so they have to go through a thaw cycle. This has some hit on efficiency, but it also means there is a gap in heating for that 10 or 15 minute period (I’ve never timed it). In real cold, that is something you feel.

Overall, getting the mini splits along with a heat pump hot water heater (which replaced a hot water system run from the oil boiler) has cut our oil bill by $600 or more per year.

Since I got this much better wood stove, I have not used the mini splits at all. It is only just breaking 32F for the first time. Tomorrow I’ll let the stove go cold and run the mini splits — empty the ash pan and clean the glass.