ok. gonna reply to both of the last posts... this is a long one, I still feel like this would be quicker with a phone call...
If the boiler is a pressurized type, this is a simple piping that works.
According to Maple 1's research it is pressurized, but I saw a video from a company that said "anytime there are different pressures on either side of a pump, then it is technically an "open atmospheric loop" I don't know anymore about it..
That 4 way valve will need an operator to adjust the return temperature to the boiler. The intent is to allow the boiler to get up to a operating temperature above 140F typically, before flow goes to the system. It helps prevent cold conditions and creosote formation caused by cold boiler operation. Think of it as a clutch petal.
Yes that is the point, wait till the water heats up then send to the house etc.. thanks for confirmation... once the water heats up, will I ever need to close that loop for some reason?
The hydraulic separator allows all the different sized pumps to get along, hydraulically speaking. It provides air and dirt separation also.
Is this basically a heat exchange? I have seen this type of thing in many a diagrams but the boiler distributor never mentioned it. in fact, said a heat exchange add to the btu loss.. not arguing just discussing opposing thought and source ( obadiahs wood stoves)
The AHs could be zoned with valves, no need to pump each one.
(do you mean one pump with zone valves? or ball valves adjusted to 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, wide open? im told that because the AH are different distances and elevations, that one AH may not get the btu's needed to heat efficiently because the near one would be able to cycle water through its 20' loop way faster than the other with a 150' loop etc.. thought?
Same with panel radiators, add a thermostatic radiator valve for temperature control at each one. A delta P circulator would be ideal for the panel rads and air handlers, the adjust output to the load change..
Yes this sounds like the taco variable 3 speed or the grundfos alpha variable 3 speed on the in of the manifold. changes in Pressure makes the pump react to change speed etc..so while we are on this subject.... do I put a bypass on each panel radiator so when the thermostat stops calling for heat, the water just passes by? or simply the zone valve closes and water is stagnant in that particular run untill the thermostat calls for heat again? also, are we talking about putting the DHW sidearm on a leg of this manifold under that same variable pump/circulator?
I would highly recommend adding a plate heat exchanger if it is an open type (un-pressurized) boiler. It is much easier to pump and remove air with a closed loop, and the pump size may be considerably smaller..
Can we confirm, whether or not this is an open or closed ( pressurized or not) boiler? Im not sure if everyones terminology is consistent. etc...... and... if it is a pressurized, then no need for plate exchanger?
If the shop AH can be piped above the boiler and has few fittings and ells it may in fact thermosiphon away excess heat in a power outage, or dump. A zone valve would open in the event of a power outage, or a call for heat.
Most modern boilers simmer down fairly quickly when they lose power.
Shop AH/Heater is one of these jobs....and I hoped to place it "not" directly next to or above the boiler.... I have a 1000 propane tank, connected to a very large generac that would compensate during a power loss etc.. so I was less worried about power loss and more concerned with if the house stops calling for heat after a big heat call and the boiler pump can circulater through the shop heater still to mitigate over heating long enough for the fire to "simmer down" Feel free to poke holes in this theory.. Im open to correction for sure
You need to calculate the required flow rate GPM to each heat emitter. Then determine the pressure drop in the piping and heat emitters on every loop to chose the pump.
ok so... air handlers pull 96000 btu's. panel radiators ( haven't purchased yet) will use in the neighborhood of 7500 btu/h for some pretty good sized ones, x 3 would = 22,500.. and DHW Looks like the sidearm can produce up to 80,000 btu/ but that seems way high?
so about 100k on 1 of the sends to the air handlers, and up to 100,000 on the other send (seems high on that DHW)... research says I need about 1 Gpm per 10,000 btu before considering loss per foot. (50,000 btu) would only be running if Im working in the shop which is for a weekend project or something like that I intend to expand my system in the future to include some panel radiators to the guest house which will only affect the main pump in this equation and the overall boiler production. but that might be 4 panel radiators at 7500 each sooo.. lets s0,000 btu to be safe... all told, thats a high end of 200,000 btus to the house and 50,000 to the shop and 30,000 to the guest house( 1000 square feet total) so 280,000 btu if all appliances were calling at once.. the Glenwood 7050 is rated at 200,000 btu per hour. My house is very well insulated, as we speak, its 0 degrees outside and the current air handlers are keeping up just fine and are not running non stop at all.. online BTU calculator says I would need about 220,000 to heat all three buildings. ( I sized this boiler assuming the shop was going to be very intermittent and not needing to be 72 degrees, just not freezing etc..
looks like each send ( 1-1/4 " ) can send 120,000 btu/h or 11-12 gpm without an issue does this seem like good calculations?
The pump moves a certain amount of GPM, BTUs, or heat based on the resistance (head) of the piping it needs to push through.
pumps are outlined in the diagram and seems like P1 is plenty big for everthing and I just need to place a few pumps for more of a controlled flow to those branches?
What is that line on the bottom with the blue thingy on the end? Just a fresh feed/makeup line?
just represents a return/fill line or something, not pertinent
how does flow get into the PRs?
this would be into the manifold through P7 which is a variable speed pump that would kick up based on call etc..and zone valves would open/close based on call.
Is M2 actually a pair of manifolds - supply & return? Is M1 the same - or?
Manifolds in the picture are just drawings that I copied. M2 is an actuall pre-fabbed manifold and M1 is just a 1-1/4 line that would T off to the 2 1" sends and returns" Self Made with Pex or copper..
Looks like the AHs are needing separate pumps for their flow, but the PRs aren't - but the manifolds are drawn the same? Are they different? Some component pics might help. Along with load requirements of each zone.
Load requirement outlined above. M1 is something like this...except a 6 way and Manifold 2 like this except 2 sends/returns
(I don't think think B will dump heat in a power outage?)
Not worried about power outages... generator and 2 months worth of propane on hand..
