I need a consultation.....

[sghickey]

Hello, I bought a big boiler and have been learning and researching and wall hitting and backtracking for over a year now...

I have pretty well settled on most of the elements and My Father in law and I are ready to get our copper put together.

The supplier I purchased from has been very helpful, but we have found a few reasons to 2nd guess the initial instructions for pump placement etc...
Im convinced we just need to answer a few questions but of course there will no doubt have a couple more come up. putting questions up on the forum is also helpful but the turnaround time makes it more difficult than a quick conversation on the phone etc..

Here is my question. If I were to take some pics and send some diagrams to someone, and have my list of questions ready, is there a hydronic pro out there that would be willing to visit with me and possible my dad n law, for 20,30 min or so in order for us to line out a couple of concerns we have etc..
I think the hardest part for us has been, I have asked around my area for a year and litterally cannot find someone to pay to come to my house and simply answer a few questions. seriously no one.
I could/would pay if necessary. I need someone trustworthy for this, and someone i might could call a couple times over the next few weeks - month to get this finished..
Thank you in advance

Sam Hickey
[email protected]

Glenwood Boiler in shop
90ft to House x 2 1-1/4 sends
2 air handlers
DHW
couple panel radiators
etc..
eventual expansion to guesthouse.

 

[JRHAWK9]

@heaterman ????

 

[hondaracer2oo4]

How complicated could your issues be? Why not post your questions and concerns on here and see what you get? I bet 90% or more of your questions can be answered right here.

 

[sghickey]

ok, here goes. ( with diagram)

Got a glenwood 7050 ( 200,000 btu) boiler.. as with any project, I have made adjustments in the process. The largest one being that I had to move the boiler from inside the garage to the detached shop about 90 feet away. That changed alot of things... so I spent the summer months, digging trenches and putting in chimney in the shop. Based on conversations i had with obadiahs wood stoves, i now have like 7 pumps and what seems like some areas of over the top pumping etc.. Im hoping to simplify the "flow" or clarify the need for all the pumps etc..

Here is my diagram ( basic idea) questions are below

Notes.
The main loop and Aux loop are 2" copper loops
the shop and house are 90ft away from each other with 2 x 1-1/4 inch pairs running between them (S2 and S3)
My house does have 2 air handlers, one is a 5 ton and serves main floor and basement and the other is 3.5 ton and serves the top floor
AH1 is 5 ton and is 10 feet away from manifold 1. AH2 is the 3.5 and is 2 stories up and across the house from manifold 1, probably a total loop of 150 feet
Manifold 1 splits to 2 x 1" lines to serve the air handlers
Manifold 2 is a 6way manifold with 1/2" sends and returns for panel radiators and DHW
Shop Heater/heat dump is a 1in line loop or could be bigger or smaller if needed

Questions:
Pumps, are pumps 3 and 4 ( P3 & P4) redundant? P1 is 1/2 horse and there is a mixing valve on the main loop so once the mixing valve is opened, then would that 1/2 horse pump serve the 1-1/4 inch lines all the way to the manifolds apprx. 90 feet away ( very little elevation change)???

what about pump 7? its a variable 3 speed pump that supposed to adjust based on pressure when the different zone valves open and close for heat.
is that pump redundant if the 1/2 horse pump can get all the way over to the house without trouble?

Or... is my diagram reasonable as it sits? such a big pump on the main loop seems really big if there are pumps serving the sends to the house..

4 Way Mixing Valve:
I ordered a esbe 4 way mixing valve and an auto controller. it took 10 days to recieve the special order 2" mixing valve. turns out I was sent a mixing valve that isn't controller compatible and is only manual. I suppose I can just use it manually. Is this a mistake? should I bit the bullet and send it back and wait for the auto? why?

I have more questions but some of them will depend on everyones thoughts on the first parts..
thanks

 

[Bob Rohr]

Is the boiler an open system, un pressurized type?

What is the point of the 4 way mixing valve, it looks like every emitter could run at the same, high temperature?

Looks grossly over pumped to me, also.

Do you have a heat load calculation, or know how many BTU/ hr the various zones require? You really need that to accurately size the various pumps.

Seems it could be piped with 3- 4, maybe 1 more if it needs a heat exchanger to keep a pressurized and un-pressurized loop.

 

[Scotty2]

Beginners question. Would P4 be better located in the Auxilary Loop?

 

[sghickey]

Is the boiler an open system, un pressurized type?
I guess technically its an open system. ( by my understanding, but I couldn't be sure)

What is the point of the 4 way mixing valve, it looks like every emitter could run at the same, high temperature?
4 way valve keeps the water in the main loop untill it gets up to temp or close. once its hits about 150 then the mixing valve diverts to the whole loop. Apparently, this heats up the boiler faster and therefore burns cleaner and more efficiently. ( so says obadiahs wood stoves)

Looks grossly over pumped to me, also.
Is there an instance where you would stack pumps to keep btu's per hour up?

Do you have a heat load calculation, or know how many BTU/ hr the various zones require? You really need that to accurately size the various pumps.
around 150,000 to 175,000 the boiler is plenty big as I may eventully put in a run to a guest house as well.. 2" loop and runs to the house are sized accordingly, just wondering about these pumps.

Seems it could be piped with 3- 4, maybe 1 more if it needs a heat exchanger to keep a pressurized and un-pressurized loop.
Open to a heat exchange on the second run and then run the panel radiators and the DHW in series... on its own little loop, but up till now have been planning for a not heat exchange set up..

 

[Bob Rohr]

If the boiler is a pressurized type, this is a simple piping that works. That 4 way valve will need an operator to adjust the return temperature to the boiler. The intent is to allow the boiler to get up to a operating temperature above 140F typically, before flow goes to the system. It helps prevent cold conditions and creosote formation caused by cold boiler operation. Think of it as a clutch petal.

The hydraulic separator allows all the different sized pumps to get along, hydraulically speaking. It provides air and dirt separation also.

The AHs could be zoned with valves, no need to pump each one.

Same with panel radiators, add a thermostatic radiator valve for temperature control at each one. A delta P circulator would be ideal for the panel rads and air handlers, the adjust output to the load change.

I would highly recommend adding a plate heat exchanger if it is an open type (un-pressurized) boiler. It is much easier to pump and remove air with a closed loop, and the pump size may be considerably smaller.

If the shop AH can be piped above the boiler and has few fittings and ells it may in fact thermosiphon away excess heat in a power outage, or dump. A zone valve would open in the event of a power outage, or a call for heat.
Most modern boilers simmer down fairly quickly when they lose power.

You need to calculate the required flow rate GPM to each heat emitter. Then determine the pressure drop in the piping and heat emitters on every loop to chose the pump.

The pump moves a certain amount of GPM, BTUs, or heat based on the resistance (head) of the piping it needs to push through.

 

[maple1]

According to the web, the boiler is closed (pressurized).

What is that line on the bottom with the blue thingy on the end? Just a fresh feed/makeup line?

I don't think I can offer much here, and I have no experience with mixing valves, but that looks very busy and likely not something I would have come up with to try. Might help others though to know where the dividing line is between shop & house - e.g., are Ps & P4 in the house? Or shop? Does seem though like either P4 or P7 are redundant - but how does flow get into the PRs? Is M2 actually a pair of manifolds - supply & return? Is M1 the same - or? Looks like the AHs are needing separate pumps for their flow, but the PRs aren't - but the manifolds are drawn the same? Are they different? Some component pics might help. Along with load requirements of each zone.

(I don't think think B will dump heat in a power outage?)

 

[sghickey]

ok. gonna reply to both of the last posts... this is a long one, I still feel like this would be quicker with a phone call...

If the boiler is a pressurized type, this is a simple piping that works.
According to Maple 1's research it is pressurized, but I saw a video from a company that said "anytime there are different pressures on either side of a pump, then it is technically an "open atmospheric loop" I don't know anymore about it..
That 4 way valve will need an operator to adjust the return temperature to the boiler. The intent is to allow the boiler to get up to a operating temperature above 140F typically, before flow goes to the system. It helps prevent cold conditions and creosote formation caused by cold boiler operation. Think of it as a clutch petal. Yes that is the point, wait till the water heats up then send to the house etc.. thanks for confirmation... once the water heats up, will I ever need to close that loop for some reason?

The hydraulic separator allows all the different sized pumps to get along, hydraulically speaking. It provides air and dirt separation also.
Is this basically a heat exchange? I have seen this type of thing in many a diagrams but the boiler distributor never mentioned it. in fact, said a heat exchange add to the btu loss.. not arguing just discussing opposing thought and source ( obadiahs wood stoves)

The AHs could be zoned with valves, no need to pump each one.
(do you mean one pump with zone valves? or ball valves adjusted to 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, wide open? im told that because the AH are different distances and elevations, that one AH may not get the btu's needed to heat efficiently because the near one would be able to cycle water through its 20' loop way faster than the other with a 150' loop etc.. thought?

Same with panel radiators, add a thermostatic radiator valve for temperature control at each one. A delta P circulator would be ideal for the panel rads and air handlers, the adjust output to the load change.. Yes this sounds like the taco variable 3 speed or the grundfos alpha variable 3 speed on the in of the manifold. changes in Pressure makes the pump react to change speed etc..so while we are on this subject.... do I put a bypass on each panel radiator so when the thermostat stops calling for heat, the water just passes by? or simply the zone valve closes and water is stagnant in that particular run untill the thermostat calls for heat again? also, are we talking about putting the DHW sidearm on a leg of this manifold under that same variable pump/circulator?

I would highly recommend adding a plate heat exchanger if it is an open type (un-pressurized) boiler. It is much easier to pump and remove air with a closed loop, and the pump size may be considerably smaller.. Can we confirm, whether or not this is an open or closed ( pressurized or not) boiler? Im not sure if everyones terminology is consistent. etc...... and... if it is a pressurized, then no need for plate exchanger?

If the shop AH can be piped above the boiler and has few fittings and ells it may in fact thermosiphon away excess heat in a power outage, or dump. A zone valve would open in the event of a power outage, or a call for heat.
Most modern boilers simmer down fairly quickly when they lose power.
Shop AH/Heater is one of these jobs....

and I hoped to place it "not" directly next to or above the boiler.... I have a 1000 propane tank, connected to a very large generac that would compensate during a power loss etc.. so I was less worried about power loss and more concerned with if the house stops calling for heat after a big heat call and the boiler pump can circulater through the shop heater still to mitigate over heating long enough for the fire to "simmer down" Feel free to poke holes in this theory.. Im open to correction for sure

You need to calculate the required flow rate GPM to each heat emitter. Then determine the pressure drop in the piping and heat emitters on every loop to chose the pump. ok so... air handlers pull 96000 btu's. panel radiators ( haven't purchased yet) will use in the neighborhood of 7500 btu/h for some pretty good sized ones, x 3 would = 22,500.. and DHW Looks like the sidearm can produce up to 80,000 btu/ but that seems way high?
so about 100k on 1 of the sends to the air handlers, and up to 100,000 on the other send (seems high on that DHW)... research says I need about 1 Gpm per 10,000 btu before considering loss per foot. (50,000 btu) would only be running if Im working in the shop which is for a weekend project or something like that I intend to expand my system in the future to include some panel radiators to the guest house which will only affect the main pump in this equation and the overall boiler production. but that might be 4 panel radiators at 7500 each sooo.. lets s0,000 btu to be safe... all told, thats a high end of 200,000 btus to the house and 50,000 to the shop and 30,000 to the guest house( 1000 square feet total) so 280,000 btu if all appliances were calling at once.. the Glenwood 7050 is rated at 200,000 btu per hour. My house is very well insulated, as we speak, its 0 degrees outside and the current air handlers are keeping up just fine and are not running non stop at all.. online BTU calculator says I would need about 220,000 to heat all three buildings. ( I sized this boiler assuming the shop was going to be very intermittent and not needing to be 72 degrees, just not freezing etc..
looks like each send ( 1-1/4 " ) can send 120,000 btu/h or 11-12 gpm without an issue does this seem like good calculations?


The pump moves a certain amount of GPM, BTUs, or heat based on the resistance (head) of the piping it needs to push through.
pumps are outlined in the diagram and seems like P1 is plenty big for everthing and I just need to place a few pumps for more of a controlled flow to those branches?


What is that line on the bottom with the blue thingy on the end? Just a fresh feed/makeup line? just represents a return/fill line or something, not pertinent

how does flow get into the PRs?
this would be into the manifold through P7 which is a variable speed pump that would kick up based on call etc..and zone valves would open/close based on call.
Is M2 actually a pair of manifolds - supply & return? Is M1 the same - or?
Manifolds in the picture are just drawings that I copied. M2 is an actuall pre-fabbed manifold and M1 is just a 1-1/4 line that would T off to the 2 1" sends and returns" Self Made with Pex or copper..
Looks like the AHs are needing separate pumps for their flow, but the PRs aren't - but the manifolds are drawn the same? Are they different? Some component pics might help. Along with load requirements of each zone.
Load requirement outlined above. M1 is something like this...except a 6 way

and Manifold 2 like this except 2 sends/returns


(I don't think think B will dump heat in a power outage?)
Not worried about power outages... generator and 2 months worth of propane on hand..

 

[maple1]

'According to Maple 1's research it is pressurized, but I saw a video from a company that said "anytime there are different pressures on either side of a pump, then it is technically an "open atmospheric loop" I don't know anymore about it..'

Every system has pressure differentials on each side of a pump. Does you boiler have a pressure gauge? What does it say?

'Yes that is the point, wait till the water heats up then send to the house etc.. thanks for confirmation... once the water heats up, will I ever need to close that loop for some reason?'

I would not want that component of my system to require manual operation/intervention. (Or any part, actually). I would get the one you spoke about that is operated by a controller.

'Is this basically a heat exchange? I have seen this type of thing in many a diagrams but the boiler distributor never mentioned it. in fact, said a heat exchange add to the btu loss.. not arguing just discussing opposing thought and source ( obadiahs wood stoves)'

A hydraulic separator is not a heat exchanger. A heat exchanger keeps fluids separate, a hydro separator mixes.

'(do you mean one pump with zone valves? or ball valves adjusted to 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, wide open? im told that because the AH are different distances and elevations, that one AH may not get the btu's needed to heat efficiently because the near one would be able to cycle water through its 20' loop way faster than the other with a 150' loop etc.. thought?'

But if the coils are sized properly, they won't be needing heat all the time. So the zone valves would close either zone when it is satisfied. If you used an Alpha, you could do some throttling with ball valves, but you don't want to lower flows too much.

'or simply the zone valve closes and water is stagnant in that particular run untill the thermostat calls for heat again?'

Yes.

'ok so... air handlers pull 96000 btu's...'

All of that has little to do with required flow rate. That is just adding up what your emitters are capable of and has little to do with what you really need to know - how much heat each area that has an emitter, needs to keep warm. It sounds like a heat loss calculation was not done on anything here? So doing a proper system design is rather like a hopeful shot in the dark - and maybe even indicates the large number of pumps & present design was done to compensate for any underestimations due to no heat loss numbers being run. That 220,000 is a HUGE number.

'just represents a return/fill line or something, not pertinent'

A fill line & a return line are two majorly different things. If it is a return line, it could be quite pertinent.

'Manifolds in the picture are just drawings that I copied. M2 is an actuall pre-fabbed manifold and M1 is just a 1-1/4 line that would T off to the 2 1" sends and returns" Self Made with Pex or copper..'

OK, uncertain details like this make it hard to give decent suggestions. The diagram could also indicate primary/secondary loops, with the manifolds being close T setups. Which would require a pump for each emitting loop - which the diagram shows for the AHs. But not the PRs. But if each of the two manifolds is a supply/return pair, then it really seems that this system is overpumped, and some good use of dP pumps & zone valves could be made.

But not having any heat load/loss numbers, or any info about each of your emitters (sizing?), and maybe even also head loss calcs, is going to make getting reliable suggestions difficult - and also could make for a long & maybe painful phone call.

 

[sghickey]

A fill line & a return line are two majorly different things. If it is a return line, it could be quite pertinent.
Just a cold water fill line

Maple, thank you for your feedback so far. I guess I need to do some math.. can you recommend a good template or resource to put this together.?
p.s the AH1 supports the main floor and finished basement currently, but it is not zoned and the Thermostat is on the main floor, The problem with that is, that when the main floor hits 72 degrees, the AH kicks off and the basement is consistently 5-8 degrees colder ( feels like) so the panel radiators are so when the airhandler kicks off, the panel radiators can continue warming the basement living area till the temp hits 70-72 etc.. so in effect the panel radiators are supplemental and not a main source of heat for any portion of the house. etc..

I definately do need to get to the bottom of this, so a recommended calculator would be great and keeping the chatter going is helping me to cross some stuff off my list..

 

[Bob Rohr]

I'm not sure what the actual tested BTU output of the boiler is? Lets assume 200,000 at 75% efficiency. So you may have an actual 150,000 to work with.

I would say it is a pressurized boiler, from the pics.

P1 just circulates the boiler to the hydro sep located in the house 90 feet away, correct? So you want to move around 15 gpm, medium head. I would look at a Grundfos 26-64, Taco 0010, or B&G NRF 25 for that pump. 1-1/4 or 1-1/2" pipe is plenty for the boiler piping.

The hydro sep is just a large tube with some mesh inside for dirt and air removal. It is just a "gathering point for all the pumps to reference.

From the hydro sep you pump to all the various heat emitters, those pumps size based on flow requirement. I'm guessing Grundfos Alpha 15-55 would be about right for the two AHs, and another for the panel rads.

The AHs may ned to pump and pipe directly from the hydrosep, the manifold branches are usually good for 1- 1.5 gpm per branch, Sounds like the Has may need 3-5 gpm based on the 5 ton size?

The panel rads could all feed from one of those manifolds.

You are probably looking at a fairly large expansion tank at the boiler. It is sized based on the total volume of the system.

Where in Missouri are you. I'm in the Springfield area. I have some parts and pieces that you may need.

 

[hondaracer2oo4]

This is the best btu loss calc for free that I know of.

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm

To confirm you are building a completely new system?

Take a look at the sticky on this forum called "primary/secondary loop system". That is what I would use.

 

[hondaracer2oo4]

Looks to me that it's Pressirized boiler. Your going to need an expansion tank somewhere in the system along with an air seperator and air high vents.

 

[sghickey]

I would say it is a pressurized boiler, from the pics.
Website says pressurized

P1 just circulates the boiler to the hydro sep located in the house 90 feet away, correct?
Sorta...P1 pumps through the main loop/aux loop ( once its up to temp) and circulates inside the shop. P2 is for the shop heater ( inside shop) Pump 3 and 4 are in the shop and kick on to push water 90 ft to the house where each 1-1/4 send meets its respective Manifold. ( one send is for air handlers and one is for PR and DHW.
So you want to move around 15 gpm, medium head. I would look at a Grundfos 26-64, Taco 0010, or B&G NRF 25 for that pump. 1-1/4 or 1-1/2" pipe is plenty for the boiler piping. ( the Taco 2450 is rated for up to 54 gpm. and that one was recommended to be P1) is that too big or too small?

The hydro sep is just a large tube with some mesh inside for dirt and air removal. It is just a "gathering point for all the pumps to reference. If "send water" and "return water" is mixing, doesn't that potentially lower the temp of the send water in an effort to equalize pressure? would I need a Hydro sep in the shop before where the send/return of the lines to the house are? or... in the house where the manifold loops are converging?

From the hydro sep you pump to all the various heat emitters, those pumps size based on flow requirement. I'm guessing Grundfos Alpha 15-55 would be about right for the two AHs, and another for the panel rads. I have one Grundfos Alpha for the panel rad... but I have the taco 0015 variable speed for the Air Handlers.. ( 1 per Air Handler) both mounted in the house so they will only be pushing a loop to the air handler and back to the manifold in the house. Thank you for the pump suggestions, but im hoping to clarify if you are suggesting different pumps because the ones I have will not do a good job, or because they are your recommendations based on preference etc.. ( which I get, but if I don't have to order another round of pumps and return other ones.......etc...)

The AHs may ned to pump and pipe directly from the hydrosep, the manifold branches are usually good for 1- 1.5 gpm per branch, Sounds like the Has may need 3-5 gpm based on the 5 ton size? The inlet on the AH heat exchangers are 1". I figured my 1-1/4 inch supply would branch to 2 x 1 inch lines. one for each AH. I intend to basically creat my own "manifold"/ splitter just out of copper using "T's".. will this work?

The panel rads could all feed from one of those manifolds. That is the plan for now.

You are probably looking at a fairly large expansion tank at the boiler. It is sized based on the total volume of the system. (150 Gallon Boiler water jacket)

Where in Missouri are you. I'm in the Springfield area. I have some parts and pieces that you may need.
Seneca Mo, which is about 20 min. Sw of joplin so maybe hour and 20 minutes from springfield... Sure, I'd discuss parts with ya.. Im still scrathing my head over this hydraulic seperator... could you put a link to what you use or a recommendation? Maybe if I see a pic of the part/model you have in mind it will make more sense to me...

 

[sghickey]

Looks to me that it's Pressirized boiler. Your going to need an expansion tank somewhere in the system along with an air seperator and air high vents.

Yes I have the expansion tank, air scoop, bleeders, scrubbers... etc.. the schematic i uploaded is more for pump placement than anything.. I intend to expand on the schematic, but threw this together to focus on these questions I have etc..

 

[maple1]

How much of this system is actually constructed?

 

[Bob Rohr]

A couple more simple, free load calcs.

http://www.usboiler.net/heat-loss-calculator.html

www.slantfin.com/slantfin-heat-loss-calculator/

 

[sghickey]

How much of this system is actually constructed?

The lines are buries between house ( into the utility room where the main air handler and the DHW is)
And the shop where the boiler is. Chimney is cut into the shop roof as well. I have the pumps, the copper, scoops, bleeders, tanks, shop heater etc... I have not purchased the panel radiators yet but everything else is here. We could start assembly any time but I really want to have the complete plan first. This has been quite the pursuit of knowledge...

 

[hondaracer2oo4]

I know your getting a lot of info thrown at you and opinions. This is what I would do with a primary/secondary loop system using closely spaced tees. Simple system, 1 large pump to push the gpm around the primary loop coupled with the large diameter of the primary loop to provide the btus needed to all of the secondary loops. You should be able to get away with 007 tacos unless you have some major head loss on each secondary loop, I think you said some are far away, the 1 inch diameter feeding those should make the head loss low though.

 

[Bob Rohr]

Primary secondary piping has some nice advantages and is helpful when using multiple, different sized pumps and varying flow rates.

It does bring one challenge to the mix however.

The secondary are in series, so the first set of tees will get the hottest temperature. Every set of take offs down the line receives lower temperature as the return from every zone mixes down the temperature. At the end of the P/S loop you could see 20- 40 degrees cooler temperature.

Now if you had a multiple temperature requirement like 180 at the first, then low temperature for a radiant slab at the end it may work out.

The drawing shows the temperature drop by the color change in the lines of this schematic.

In a system like yours you want high temperature to every emitter and the DHW.

With a hydraulic separator every takeoff will see the same temperature as they are in parallel, not series. It is a better piping option for your system.

You get air, dirt, and magnetic separation all in one simple device. It also takes some piping and labor cost out.

 

[hondaracer2oo4]

Nice job Bob. That solves his issues. I wasn't very concerned about the temp drop for a few reasons. One being that they aren't all going to be on at the same time all the time. Sometimes yes and then zones are going to have to run longer to deliver the same btus but eventually it would all happen and large piping with a large pump on the primary would help to deliver higher temps to the downstream zones but at the end of the day the hydraulic seperator fixes his problem. If I was him that would be my plan.

 

[Bob Rohr]

Yes you hit on the other problem with P/S the temperatures are constantly changing depending on which zones are calling.

Often installers add thermostatic mix valves, or other mixing devices at the take-offs to assure a constant temperature, especially for a radiant zone that you don't want to overheat.

I think he may have enough "horsepower" to keep up with all the loads, only way to be sure is running the load calc numbers.

 

[maple1]

Seems also whoever came up with this pump happy system layout isn't worried about power bills.

That monster Taco in the primary circuit alone would run me 10 cents/hour to run at my rates - and since it needs to run whenever heating or the boiler is running (i.e. 24/7 in heating season), that's like $75/month just for electricity for just that one pump. What was that pump choice based on?

I'm no pro by any means - but this is seeming more & more like a rediculously overpumped layout. It would come down again to the load calc & head loss numbers, but I could see possibly doing it with 3 pumps in total - one for boiler loop, one for garage heater, and one for everything in the house if all that was zoned with zone valves. And only needing to use one 1-1/4" line between boiler & house. As long as it was quality underground piping - is it?

Clean slate time?

(I am liking the hydro separator idea...)