I need to make up my mind! Gasification Boiler with Storage for New House

[WoodWacker]

So, I posted back in March concerning a new boiler ideas and design. The post ended up getting into a personal argument about insulation. This isn't about insulation. I want 2x6 walls with blow in cellulose, for the attic: I'm thinking crumpled newspaper, ha jk. I am planning to break ground this May on a 2200 square foot chalet with 1/3 cathedral ceiling to 2nd floor. Daylight basement on the southern exposed short wall (28x42). An attached garage on a pad 26x36, 10-12x24 feet of it is going to be entryway and boiler room. I plan to have 2 500 gallon propane tanks stacked in the basement for storage. I'm still looking for a set, seems like I can't find any near Maine. Off the back of my garage will be a lean-to, and the wood will be stored there and come in the back door to my small 10-12x12 boiler room. I plan on having a fireplace in the house, so my other option is to put the boiler in the basement. However, unless I have to, I'd like to keep the mess out of the house. I really want to keep my electrical load to a minimum, which brings me to Vedolux natural draft boilers. Sounds like everyone likes em! However, unless I put it in my basement, where I'll have more than 24' of chimney, I'm stuck with an ID fan boiler or a forced draft boiler. My garage will only yield about 20' of chimney before it looks like a tele-tubby. I don't want 24' of chimney with a ridge line at 18' from the ground. I plan to do all radiant/wall mount radiators for heating. Including radiant in the garage. Overall about 4k square feet of heating. My backup will be a wall mount condensing propane boiler, and domestic hot water will come from a boilermate on a separate zone.
I am on acreage and have access to plenty of firewood. Mostly maple, beech, some oak and tons of hemlock. I'm 26 and grew up in a house powered by an old Memco 100 or 120, can't remember. It's 20+ years old and replaced the gratings only twice. Oh and the the door hinges, it's seen +/-10 cords/year from day one(not efficient by any means). So I've done my share of firewood and still love it.
I want a gasification boiler, I don't want a garn and I don't really want lamda. I love pressurized systems, they seem to make the most sense financially and mechanically. Although it serves a good purpose, I'd like to keep the automation to a minimum. Vedo 50 would be my choice if I only had the right amount of draft. Any suggestions for my application?

Thanks,
CJ

 

[dogwood]

CJ, check out the Tarm Solo Innova available at Tarm Biomass in New Hampshire. Their banner is below. It requires storage, doesnt have a lambda (at least the model they carry), is well built, and Tarm has a proven track record for quality products.

 

[__dan]

The electrical load for the draft fan is peanuts, It is a little bigger than a bath fan, probably ~ 100 watts. My entire system, circs and all, added less than ten dollars a month to the electric bill. If you want natural draft because of power failure concerns, that may be valid, but if you are concerned about the electric bill, a plasma tv draws more power. One 70 watts lamp running 7/24 for the month is $7. You will pay a lot more for recessed cans or inefficient appliances.

What you would be looking for is a draft induced boiler, draft fan at the exhaust and running the combustion chambers under negative pressure so no smoke leaks out, like may happen with a positive pressure, forced draft system. The draft inducer fan can be a big help getting the fire started when draft is low, and considering the boilers are downdraft gasifiers, they can use the extra help pulling the combustion gasses down then up and out. If you are saying chimney height is an issue for proper draft, the draft fan is what you would want.

There is no reason to avoid the lambda boilers. I asked about repair experience when I bought mine and reliability was not an issue. The lambda sensors are in every car, and any electronic car part is heavily validated for reliability before it goes into production. The Froling comes with and without lambda controls. I am assuming you want a system that is easier to troubleshoot if you have problems, maybe lack of expert technicians in your area, but the lambda system is intended to run with less problems, adapting to different burn conditions every day. It's a wash to me but very dependent on dealer/factory support and parts availability. The Froling in particular is built with commercial grade Belimo operators and a very high quality TEFC draft fan.

I would make two suggestions in addition to what you have already specced out. One would be to look into the European Passivhaus foundation construction methods with heavily insulated foundation using rigid foam board exterior to and completely enveloping the foundation. The other suggestion would be outdoor air reset control of the radiant and panel radiator loads.

 

[maple1]

The electrical load for the draft fan is peanuts, It is a little bigger than a bath fan, probably ~ 100 watts. My entire system, circs and all, added less than ten dollars a month to the electric bill. If you want natural draft because of power failure concerns, that may be valid, but if you are concerned about the electric bill, a plasma tv draws more power. One 70 watts lamp running 7/24 for the month is $7. You will pay a lot more for recessed cans or inefficient appliances.

It's not about the power bill. At least it wasn't for me.

It's an added bonus - but for me it was mainly less electrical things to worry about in a power outage, but more so less things to go wrong in the long term.

No doubt a lambda unit would get me a bit more efficiency, but I suspect it would be close to negligible. And you'll never catch me posting about fan or controller issues, as gets posted here on occasion.

 

[maple1]

I plan to have 2 500 gallon propane tanks stacked in the basement for storage. I'm still looking for a set, seems like I can't find any near Maine.

There are all kinds of them in Moncton, NB - that's where I got mine. Rolling up to the border crossing with some might cause a stir though - but might be worth checking out if you don't have any other options. I read somewhere a couple years ago that taking all the fittings/bungs out & spray painting 'water only' on them might help in certain situations. They will be smelly though.

 

[flyingcow]

Try maingas in fairfield maine. I see a good sized pile of tanks when i go by on the interstate. There is also a shop just south of Mars Hill that has a sign out"tanks for sale". I will get the number when i go by on thursday. Be a bit of a ride for you.

 

[WoodWacker]

Cow, thanks for that... I'll give em a call maybe tomorrow. I don't mind traveling...

As for tarm, awesome boilers by the sounds, as their price reflects. Innova would be my 1st choice for Tarm, Froling sounds like the cat's meow but I don't want to have to source it's electronics 15 years from now. The Innova's ID fan draws up to 240 watts! That seems like a bunch, I'm not worried about the small bill increase. I'd like to have it set up down the road to run my zones and boiler from a bank of batteries and an inverter, and like maple said, it's more moving parts.

Does anyone know the price tag on an Innova 30/50?

How would you guys compare the innova 30 with the Vedo 37?

What about the outer shell on the Tarms? Is it annoying to have to open two doors to stoke the fire? I feel like I'd end up leaving the outer door open all the time.

Thanks,
CJ

 

[maple1]

Since you seem to be keying on electricity a bit, make sure you check out grundfoss alpha for you zone pumping, no matter what you end up with for a boiler.

 

[flyingcow]

Basically my Innova burns 3 to 4 hours a night on avg in the winter. Fan doesn't run 100% of the time but the majority of it. So figure what? 1 Kwh total? Sub zero nights closer to 6+/- hours run time? During summer, One fire, 3 to 4 hours of run time, every 4 to 5 days for DHW.

Go to Tarm and find if there are local dealers near you. As with other boiler companies, don't hesitate to call directly to the source. good customer service/ communications are priceless. BTW, just curious, where in Maine are you?

The Innova is not a cheap boiler, the Froling might not be far off. When i bought my Innova, the Froling was just hitting the markets over here. If i was a year later I would have bought the Froling'.

The two doors don't seem to bother me.

Thats my thoughts on the Tarm. But there are a lot of good people here with some good experience with other brands of boilers. I'm just a truck driver that knows just enough to be troublesome with info.

Good Luck.

 

[bmblank]

I love my Tarm. I'm surprised how much heat it puts out. I wouldn't run a Gasser without storage though. I have ~1600 gallons unpressurized and I make a fire every other day for the most part. Pretty much two firebox-fulls will get me to the next fire. Right now my system isn't built right, so my storage is going from about 120 to 165, sometimes if I don't mind it idling I can load it up and get it to 180.

 

[bmblank]

Oh, I should add I think I paid about 8k for my solo innova 30. JUST for the boiler. Definitely not cheap, but along with that was excellent literature and support from the guys at Tarm biomass. And the two doors is a little annoying, but I like the insulation and safety of it. I can put my hands anywhere on my boiler and it's maybe a little warm at the most. It's just like an appliance.

 

[Floater1]

Wood wacker I'm in Maine new construction, I went with a Vigas 25 baseboard heat it's awesome, talk to hen fruit. He is on this site very informative. I know of 500 gal used propane tanks reasonably priced in state.New construction with the right people is cheaper than you think. You getting boiler tank or tanks yourself fitted with the right ports etc inside ready to go will save you bundles. Spray foam, froth kits saves $$ look for domestic coils in state (grey) once inside the professionals w/ licenses take over and the learning process begins

 

[WoodWacker]

Spray foam, froth kits saves $$ look for domestic coils in state (grey) once inside the professionals w/ licenses take over and the learning process begins

Sounds much like my plans. Although, what do you mean by Domestic Coils in state (grey)? I want a DHW coil separate from my water bank. Once my fire dies out and my tanks go cold, I don't want my gas furnace to have to heat my tanks back up to make DHW. Also in the summer, during maintenance or sheer lazyness, I want to run just the propane furnace to heat water enough for a shower, I may not want to start the boiler.

Floater, did you do your own spray foam on the tanks? If so, what did you put on em? How do you like straight baseboard?

 

[Floater1]

Sounds much like my plans. Although, what do you mean by Domestic Coils in state (grey)? I want a DHW coil separate from my water bank. Once my fire dies out and my tanks go cold, I don't want my gas furnace to have to heat my tanks back up to make DHW. Also in the summer, during maintenance or sheer lazyness, I want to run just the propane furnace to heat water enough for a shower, I may not want to start the boiler.

Floater, did you do your own spray foam on the tanks? If so, what did you put on em? How do you like straight baseboard?

Yes I sprayed it myself kosco has kits they call them froth kits. baseboard is good i think radiant is better because you can heat at lower temps more $ for radiant. The domestic watercoil I bought on this forum from a man in Grey ME for $150.00 that's a great deal the DHW stays in the coil never exposed inside of tank it's heated by the hottest temp at the top of tank the guy you want to talk to is Patrick at alternative heating of North America he can tell you were I'm at in Maine

 

[BoilerMan]

Check out an add-on heat pump water heater for summer hot water, best thing I ever did. I too live in Maine, am an owner/builder of 3,200 square feet, and an electrician. My electric bill (at 15cents/Kwh) has NEVER been over $40/month summer or winter..........that's with the heat-pump water heater running in the summer and wood-fired hot water in the winter.

I have an induced draft gasser, and run standard Taco wet-rotor pumps, remember the boiler and primary pump only run 4 hours/day. Look elsewhere for electrical savings my friend. Use LPG to dry clothes, cook etc.

TS

PS: If you don't mind a drive, you are more than welcome to visit and see some construction pointers/learn from my mistakes, and successes. I burn 3.5 cord/year, no oil, no gas, just wood.

 

[henfruit]

Taylor,
Is that your total bill or just the electricity side?

 

[stee6043]

Buckwild avatar. Nice.

Good luck in your boiler search and welcome to the board.

 

[BoilerMan]

Taylor,
Is that your total bill or just the electricity side?

Total bill.

TS

 

[heaterman]

I'm 100% with Taylor (aka Boilerman).... Electrical consumption of a gasser + pump is a non issue. Certainly not worth the lower level of combustion control and slower response inherent with natural draft.

.........Might have stepped in it a little bit there......

 

[henfruit]

some electric bills have the delivery charge and then the actual usage of electricity.

 

[maple1]

I'm 100% with Taylor (aka Boilerman).... Electrical consumption of a gasser + pump is a non issue. Certainly not worth the lower level of combustion control and slower response inherent with natural draft.

.........Might have stepped in it a little bit there......

I'll have to let you stand in it a while, this tablet is a pita to type on.

 

[BoilerMan]

Looking at my bill for last month it breaks it down:

meter reading 12/07/13 8911
meter reading 01/08/14 9157
Total KWH: 246

Supply charge $17.96
Delivery charge $18.77


Total Due: $36.73


I guess my bottom line, and not to sound like a broken record in this thread is I would not let the electrical consumption scare you in boiler choice, it is a non issue. Unless you are off-grid or something like that. I have a wood stove in our living room which can heat the house just fine in any weather if need be, although it is much more work keeping the fire going all the time and dragging the wood through the living space. That is my backup plan for long periods of outage.

TS

 

[maple1]

I'm 100% with Taylor (aka Boilerman).... Electrical consumption of a gasser + pump is a non issue. Certainly not worth the lower level of combustion control and slower response inherent with natural draft.

.........Might have stepped in it a little bit there......

OK - this desktop is much better for typing on so you're in for it now mister.

I've only been at it with this new burner for a year & a half now, but I can honestly say that the only reason I would have a boiler with a fan on it is if my chimney wasn't tall enough for natural draft. It doesn't really have anything to do with the cost of electricity at all - I will never encounter issues with my fan not working, the controller not working right, or even my door gaskets leaking or not sealing right. I just don't have those things on my boiler so never will have to worry about them failing. Any slow response is only a factor when starting a fire with a cold chimney - that is overcome by a ball of newspaper on top of the fire at startup & lighting it first, 5 seconds ahead of lighting the bottom of the fire. Lower level of combustion control is in the eyes of the beholder. My draft is self contolled - when the fire is burning it's there, when it goes out it stops. No worries about end of fire fan shut down - it just stops drafting all by itself. No sensors, relays, or switches required. Granted, I am quite sure there are some burn efficiencies that could be gained by moving from this setup to a lambda one - but to me those gains would be marginal and not worth the price of admission & added components & complexities to get there.

Just one persons take & opinion from their experiences with their gear. As always, one size does not fit all, and everyones situation, preferences & priorities will vary. For instance, if I was not in the fortunate position I am in with my wood supply, or couldn't do it anymore, and had more local options for pellets, I am quite sure that a Windhager would be on the top of my list for a heat supply.

I think I'll go make a fire now.

 

[henfruit]

Wow that is good. Last month my total bill was $201.00

Total psnh delivery charge=$92.39

Eclectic cost $107.92

That is for the house, animal barn. Lights stock tank heaters, pond aerators ( ducks)

 

[henfruit]

Maple, If you have no controls at all, how do you control the draft if it is very windy?