I think this fireplace set up is highly suspect

[schmutzler03]

Hello,
Last fall we bought a late 60s basement ranch with a fisher (I think) wood burning insert located on an end wall in the finished basement. We had a guy come clean the chimney. He informed us our chimney was unlined but didn't seem concerned. We used the fireplace 1-2 times a week during the winter just for our pleasure/additional heat more than anything else.

Today we removed the surrounding panels to vacuum out the area around the stove. We were pretty shocked to see a lot of build up on the masonry chimney, and that the stove just had a short collar and then nothing else to direct the smoke. Being first time wood stove owners ”unlined " hadn't really clicked u til we saw it. Also, there is a cracked brick or two in the stove.

1. Isn't this a horribly unsafe set-up? What do we do next?
2. Are there supposed to be firebricks higher up the sides of the stove interior or just this one row & on the floor.

I am including some photos of the stove with side panels removed, the inside of the stove, and an attempt at looking up the unlined brick chimney.

Thank you SO much!

 

[begreen]

It's called a slammer install, common back in the 70s, but not allowed now. It could be converted to connect to a proper stainless liner, but if this is to be used for regular heating, then a modern stove is a better start.

 

[schmutzler03]

It's called a slammer install, common back in the 70s, but not allowed now. It could be converted to connect to a proper stainless liner, but if this is to be used for regular heating, then a modern stove is a better start.

Thanks, begreen,

Our main purpose in using the wood stove is simply the pleasure of sitting by a warm fireplace. It's not used as any kind of necessary heat unless we have an electrical outage. Honestly, it's at the end of a long partially below grade room with the open stairwell dividing the room about 2/3 of the way down the length, and the heat stays pretty trapped around the immediate fireplace area.

 

[begreen]

The chimney should be inspected and cleaned thoroughly before installing an 8" liner. I am moving this to the Fisher forum so that you can get answers to stove specific questions.

 

[schmutzler03]

The chimney should be inspected and cleaned thoroughly before installing an 8" liner. I am moving this to the Fisher forum so that you can get answers to stove specific questions.

Appreciate the help

 

[begreen]

A baffle would improve efficiency a bit. There are some threads in this forum on the topic. @coaly knows these stoves very well.

 

[EbS-P]

We installed a Drolet insert. This was one in our ranch basement. Very happy with it. You should plan on wrapping the stainless liner with insulation. Adds about 300$.
Two years ago this was the cheapest option.

High Efficiency Wood Insert | Escape 1800 Trio 25'

The Escape 1800-I is a high efficiency wood insert. The trio includes a 25' liner kit, a 32'' x 50'' faceplate with brushed nickel trim and the appliance.

www.drolet.ca

Rockford Chimney Supply Chimney Liner Insulation Blanket Kit, 3 to 6 Inch Diameter x 25 Feet https://a.co/d/hL550kl

 

[schmutzler03]

Thanks to each of you for the suggestions. Over the winter when I was trying to figure out what we had as far as stove types I remember reading about baffles when I found this site.

I am on the books to have the insert taken out by a local company here in Maryville while they thoroughly clean and inspect the masonry chimney. I asked them to quote me both just installing a flu liner and also a liner with a new wood burning insert.
In their showroom they had a variety of models, with Buck stoves (the 80 and 90 I think?) being less than others. I'll need to look at what other brands there were.

1. Are Bucks decent?
2. I am thinking if I keep our Fisher insert we need an 8" heavy duty insulated flu liner. Is that correct?

 

[schmutzler03]

Looks like they offer Buck, Englander, Pacific Energy and Blaze King. We're going for that fine balance between a decent product and price. This is just used for pleasure and if the power goes out. Not too often here since ice and snow aren't more than 2x a winter.

 

[begreen]

If this is just for pleasure and power outages I would get a non-cat. And if the budget is tight, the Drolet line of stoves is a very strong contender. It's got a good track record. See if the Drolet Escape 1800 will fit.

 

[Ashful]

Or why but just keep the Fisher, and reinstall it with a proper liner? They are quality stoves, even if inefficient by today’s standards.

 

[BKVP]

One note to add regarding the liner:

UL1390, the first standard that addresses the installation of solid fuel heaters for masonry fireplaces is out for comments. Industry has been reviewing the draft and there are a few issues that will need to be addressed.

There has never been a safety standard for the installation of solid fuel heaters to be installed into masonry fireplaces. ULC (Canada) has had a standard for many years. UL1390 mirrors a great deal of the ULC standard. In the standard, INSULATED liners will be required if it gets approved as drafted. UL1390 should be completed before years end.

There is also a UL1391 standard in the beginning phases. This standard will address solid fuel heaters placed into factory built fireplaces. There is no version of this in Canada and solid fuel heaters are not permitted in manufactured fireplaces in the country. This is a vastly more complex standard that will require several levels of compliance. UL1391 will take some time to be completed.

As a side note, I am on the UL Standards Committee and will update these from time to time.

BKVP

 

[BKVP]

Hey OP, you could also add a block off plate to keep more of the heat from going up around the liner and into the chimney space.

There are several good quality inserts on the market today. Many of them qualify for the 25C Tax Credit. This allows for a 30% federal tax credit and is capped at $2,000.00 The $2,000 credit should help you get a good insert and an insulated liner.

BKVP

 

[Piney]

On the other hand we burn 7+ months of the year (28 F last night) and ranches with pacific energy consider them lifetime stoves. Buy once, cry once.

 

[schmutzler03]

What specific specs should an insulated liner meet if it's to be connected to a fisher insert?

 

[schmutzler03]

Thanks for all your answers and help. After having the chimney cleaned and inspected we've decided to replace the fisher with Buck 74 stove. They will also install an insulated liner after coming back and using chemicals or chains to clean the level 3 creosote out of the smoke box area. I am considering having the stove installed in the old masonry fireplace without the surround panels. Is that a bad idea?

 

[Ashful]

All objects, including stoves, move heat by three mechanisms:

1. Conduction - one thing touching another passes most of its thermal energy from hot to cold directly, using this very strong mechanism
2. Radiation - What you feel when you go out in the sun
3. Convection - heating and moving hot air

If installing any stove in a masonry fireplace, the desire to promote or inhibit any one of these three mechanisms is dependent on whether that fireplace is on an exterior wall (radiating heat to outside) or completely contained within the envelope of the house. Old New England homes have their fireplaces centrally located, whereas PA or TN would have them on end gable walls.

If you have a fireplace with exterior-exposure masonry, you want to inhibit any thermal transfer between the stove and the masonry, as most of it will be lost to the back yard. In this case, you want to shop for a stove with a high convective factor, with radiation limited to just the forward-facing glass. Stove makers often achieve this by bolting secondary panels (double-wall construction) onto the outside of the stove, and promoting air flow between the firebox and this secondary outer panel.

So, if you have an exterior-wall fireplace, and if those panels you're discussing are indeed limiting radiation off the sides or back, you would NOT want to remove them.

 

[schmutzler03]

All objects, including stoves, move heat by three mechanisms:

1. Conduction - one thing touching another passes most of its thermal energy from hot to cold directly, using this very strong mechanism
2. Radiation - What you feel when you go out in the sun
3. Convection - heating and moving hot air

If installing any stove in a masonry fireplace, the desire to promote or inhibit any one of these three mechanisms is dependent on whether that fireplace is on an exterior wall (radiating heat to outside) or completely contained within the envelope of the house. Old New England homes have their fireplaces centrally located, whereas PA or TN would have them on end gable walls.

If you have a fireplace with exterior-exposure masonry, you want to inhibit any thermal transfer between the stove and the masonry, as most of it will be lost to the back yard. In this case, you want to shop for a stove with a high convective factor, with radiation limited to just the forward-facing glass. Stove makers often achieve this by bolting secondary panels (double-wall construction) onto the outside of the stove, and promoting air flow between the firebox and this secondary outer panel.

So, if you have an exterior-wall fireplace, and if those panels you're discussing are indeed limiting radiation off the sides or back, you would NOT want to remove them.

Thanks, Ashful

You were correct in assuming that here is TN this is a masonry fireplace and it is in the finished basement on an exterior gable end wall.

So you are saying that the metal plates surrounding the glass doored "face" of the Buck Stove serve the purpose of preventing heat from going back around the stove into the smoke box area and being lost through the masonry to the outdoors? Want to make sure I understood you correctly 😊

 

[Ashful]

So you are saying that the metal plates surrounding the glass doored "face" of the Buck Stove serve the purpose of preventing heat from going back around the stove into the smoke box area and being lost through the masonry to the outdoors? Want to make sure I understood you correctly 😊

I'm not familiar with the design of the Buck 74, so maybe I should try to pull up some images later. But I was referring to stoves that have plates bolted to the sides, top, or back of the stove, which limit radiation off of these surfaces. This is usually done to reduce clearances, allowing the owner to stuff the stove farther back into a corner, and take up less space in the room, but they also serve to limit how much heat would be lost into the masonry in your application. See my Ashford 30's for a good example of this, or the PE Alderlea, both of which have cast iron plates covering the inner firebox, creating a convective jacket around the stove.

But it sounds like you're talking about a decorative facia surround, rather than convective plates. If that's the case, then your inclination to remove them and get more air flow exchange between the room and the back of the stove probably is better.

 

[begreen]

Will this be the Buck 74 insert? If so, note that "Option A" flue connection is no longer legal. This is known in the trades as a slammer install. Option B is known as direct connect and is not recommended. Option 3 with the full, 6" stainless liner is the correct option.

 

[schmutzler03]

Will this be the Buck 74 insert? If so, note that "Option A" flue connection is no longer legal. This is known in the trades as a slammer install. Option B is known as direct connect and is not recommended. Option 3 with the full, 6" stainless liner is the correct option.

We are using the 74 insert and they are also installing an insulated stainless liner. It's replacing the Fisher which was a slammer install. I just wanted to know if the panels surrounding the insert serve a purpose other than aesthetic.

 

[begreen]

For a slammer they are a necessity but in this case, with a full liner, they are mostly aesthetic. You might get a bit more heat into the room by leaving them off.

 

[schmutzler03]

Thanks, begreen. Is there already a thread dedicated to how we can safely close off the top of the smoke box around the liner so we don't have a bunch of warm air filling the chimney?

 

[Ashful]

Thanks, begreen. Is there already a thread dedicated to how we can safely close off the top of the smoke box around the liner so we don't have a bunch of warm air filling the chimney?

Lots of them. Use the search function with the term "blockoff plate", and it's variants ("block-off plate", "block off plate"). You will see lots of good examples and ideas.

 

[schmutzler03]

Lots of them. Use the search function with the term "blockoff plate", and it's variants ("block-off plate", "block off plate"). You will see lots of good examples and ideas.

Thanks! I couldn't figure out the right term to search!