Ignigterphobia

[bogieb]

do u think you use more pellets in lower fan speed?

I don't think that at all. I honestly don't know if I would use more or less, I've never used low fan - as I stated, "If I used a couple more pellets from fan speed, I'm good with that."

 

[bags]

That's my point on the distribution blower and we will keep this in regards to room temp auto for now as that is what the thread states above on igniters. Better yet we can stick to the igniter issue and whether or not Big Foot is the culprit. Comfort does not necessarily eat more pellets because of the blower and if it does then how much? Comfort equals X amount of pellets taking the long slow route or the quicker route using a bit more fuel in less time. More pellets in less time still equates to less used per hour over a longer time of many hours of slower pellet burning to achieve said temperature. It all goes right back to a BTU raising a gallon of H2O one degree. You can hit it fast and hot getting temps up 1* quickly using more pellets or you can warm it gradually taking longer requiring more pellets. (1* = 1*). It takes X amount to get there regardless of whether these said pellets are used quicker in a shorter time frame or more time using the amount of pellets to get there slowly with the same requirement of raising the temp one degree. Anyone have any proof or proven studies on this regarding which way uses more or less pellets and where the blower speed rests? My point is that it is most likely irrelevant in overall pellet consumption. Period. It is also easier to maintain a smaller temp swing likely using less fuel and the constant burn mode would be ideal if temps allow that and the thermal mass of your home stays within set smaller temperature swings. It's easier and takes less fuel to raise the temps 10 degrees than it does to raise temps 20 degrees.

Please keep in mind this very simple fact. With the distribution blower circulating MORE air frequently the exchange rates decrease requiring less BTU's to reheat the warmer air or the air stays warmer after the exchange. Fact! Another words, in this situation the faster air steals LESS BTU's as it once again runs thru the heat exchanger than the COOLER SLOWER moving air does. It is not like having the exterior door open next to your stove blowing cold OUTSIDE air thru your exchanger. The warmer air remains warmer and the slower moving low fan speed cooler air gets warmed also BUT takes more heat in the process while in the exchanger. It also remains cooler air overall because it does not hang in the exchanger much longer than the warmer quicker air. After a trip thru the heat exchanger this air no matter what fan speed can only gain so much more heat in the given time passing thru. Y'all with me? Great!,,,, says Tony the Tiger.

These quicker exchange rates (blower on fast) bring WARMER air back into and thru the heat exchanger. Do they not? OK The SLOWER fan speed air exchange brings back cooler air more SLOWLY requiring MORE HEAT to get that air back up to temp. At a set blower speed it will only gain so much more heat as it passes thru the heat exchanger. It is a moot point that the blower uses more pellets on high because the warmer air brought back in quicker takes less pellets to reheat. It is a wash to a very large degree. Longer and slower is not necessarily better than quicker and faster and vice versa. We are talking air here and igniterphobia. Cooler air takes more heat (pellets) to warm than warmer air. Pretty simple math there and I would say that it is agreed upon. Now how is it that this lower distribution fan speed bringing back colder air slower more efficient for pellet consumption?

Heating colder air requires more pellets than warmer air. Agreed? Driving longer distances takes more gas whereas putting the pedal down (more pellets / less time) does also taking a shorter route more quickly. At some given point 5 still equals 5. No one can factually back up the statement that the distribution blower forces the use of more pellets and the only way to prove it is in a controlled situation where all temps and factors are consistent. Maybe roasting the oven all day cooking the big turkey might have helped some to use less pellets during testing. That's some "free" heat there. Dunno?

These BTU's have to be achieved some how. Burning pellets seems to work well but you can chose to burn them fast or slow for the amount of BTU's needed regardless of dist. blower fan speeds. It's all personal preference. Whether it takes LONGER with less or QUICKER with more. A BTU is a BTU. Not much you change there other than how fast you would like to burn them to get the palace toasty. I tend to favor instant gratification when it comes to staying warm. Regarding Room Temp mode in Auto or Manual it is a wash as to whether high or lower fan speed uses more pellets.

Stove Temp / Constant Burn doesn't care how warm you are in the Lazy Boy kicked back. Having the Sunday Quarter Back Chair tilted back with trouser bottoms up off of the floor no longer swirling in the drafty breeze helps in running without an OAK anyways. Oh chit! Another can of worms was just throw into the mix! Sorry! It's only concern is what temp the stove stays at regardless of what your inside home temp remains at. That said, the higher the outside temp is in stove / constant burn mode the warmer inside temps are with the same exact settings. As the outside temps rise is the stove / constant burn mode going to use less or more pellets? LESS, because it will not have to burn as many as it would in colder temps to maintain that same temp at the ESP probe. Right?

I understand the cycling of HVAC central systems mentioned above also and certain things hold true. I'll ask another question. Is it better to have the distribution blower run more consistently or constant off and on cycles? Consistency wins because the on / off cycles ARE harder on the components, cut and dry. This I believe is where the igniterphobia comes into play. However, the igniter is not always cycling on / off like I feel many tend to believe. Same as the A/C 's non stop running when the temps are not met or the blower constantly runs.

I am going to find Big Foot now.....

 

[bags]

More airflow across the heat exchangers extracts more heart from the firebox and therefore stove needs to feed more pellets to keep the esp satisfied.

So does slower moving colder air...............

 

[3650]

my igniter has been broken for some time, so when i need to dump the burn pot I just take a table spoon, scoop out a spoonful of coals, dump burn pot, dump coals in burn pot and throw a handfull of pellets on them. Works great under my circumstances but I dont recommend anyone else do this at all. I only shut down once a month for cleaning and i re-lite by soaking a few tablespoons of pellets in some isopropyl alcohol.

 

[Bioburner]

my igniter has been broken for some time, so when i need to dump the burn pot I just take a table spoon, scoop out a spoonful of coals, dump burn pot, dump coals in burn pot and throw a handfull of pellets on them. Works great under my circumstances but I dont recommend anyone else do this at all. I only shut down once a month for cleaning and i re-lite by soaking a few tablespoons of pellets in some isopropyl alcohol.

So what are you starting without igniter, the Cummins, Cumberland or Harman

 

[Tonyray]

That's my point on the distribution blower and we will keep this in regards to room temp auto for now as that is what the thread states above on igniters. Better yet we can stick to the igniter issue and whether or not Big Foot is the culprit. Comfort does not necessarily eat more pellets because of the blower and if it does then how much? Comfort equals X amount of pellets taking the long slow route or the quicker route using a bit more fuel in less time. More pellets in less time still equates to less used per hour over a longer time of many hours of slower pellet burning to achieve said temperature. It all goes right back to a BTU raising a gallon of H2O one degree. You can hit it fast and hot getting temps up 1* quickly using more pellets or you can warm it gradually taking longer requiring more pellets. (1* = 1*). It takes X amount to get there regardless of whether these said pellets are used quicker in a shorter time frame or more time using the amount of pellets to get there slowly with the same requirement of raising the temp one degree. Anyone have any proof or proven studies on this regarding which way uses more or less pellets and where the blower speed rests? My point is that it is most likely irrelevant in overall pellet consumption. Period. It is also easier to maintain a smaller temp swing likely using less fuel and the constant burn mode would be ideal if temps allow that and the thermal mass of your home stays within set smaller temperature swings. It's easier and takes less fuel to raise the temps 10 degrees than it does to raise temps 20 degrees.

Please keep in mind this very simple fact. With the distribution blower circulating MORE air frequently the exchange rates decrease requiring less BTU's to reheat the warmer air or the air stays warmer after the exchange. Fact! Another words, in this situation the faster air steals LESS BTU's as it once again runs thru the heat exchanger than the COOLER SLOWER moving air does. It is not like having the exterior door open next to your stove blowing cold OUTSIDE air thru your exchanger. The warmer air remains warmer and the slower moving low fan speed cooler air gets warmed also BUT takes more heat in the process while in the exchanger. It also remains cooler air overall because it does not hang in the exchanger much longer than the warmer quicker air. After a trip thru the heat exchanger this air no matter what fan speed can only gain so much more heat in the given time passing thru. Y'all with me? Great!,,,, says Tony the Tiger.

These quicker exchange rates (blower on fast) bring WARMER air back into and thru the heat exchanger. Do they not? OK The SLOWER fan speed air exchange brings back cooler air more SLOWLY requiring MORE HEAT to get that air back up to temp. At a set blower speed it will only gain so much more heat as it passes thru the heat exchanger. It is a moot point that the blower uses more pellets on high because the warmer air brought back in quicker takes less pellets to reheat. It is a wash to a very large degree. Longer and slower is not necessarily better than quicker and faster and vice versa. We are talking air here and igniterphobia. Cooler air takes more heat (pellets) to warm than warmer air. Pretty simple math there and I would say that it is agreed upon. Now how is it that this lower distribution fan speed bringing back colder air slower more efficient for pellet consumption?
Heating colder air requires more pellets than warmer air. Agreed? Driving longer distances takes more gas whereas putting the pedal down (more pellets / less time) does also taking a shorter route more quickly. At some given point 5 still equals 5. No one can factually back up the statement that the distribution blower forces the use of more pellets and the only way to prove it is in a controlled situation where all temps and factors are consistent. Maybe roasting the oven all day cooking the big turkey might have helped some to use less pellets during testing. That's some "free" heat there. Dunno?

These BTU's have to be achieved some how. Burning pellets seems to work well but you can chose to burn them fast or slow for the amount of BTU's needed regardless of dist. blower fan speeds. It's all personal preference. Whether it takes LONGER with less or QUICKER with more. A BTU is a BTU. Not much you change there other than how fast you would like to burn them to get the palace toasty. I tend to favor instant gratification when it comes to staying warm. Regarding Room Temp mode in Auto or Manual it is a wash as to whether high or lower fan speed uses more pellets.

Stove Temp / Constant Burn doesn't care how warm you are in the Lazy Boy kicked back. Having the Sunday Quarter Back Chair tilted back with trouser bottoms up off of the floor no longer swirling in the drafty breeze helps in running without an OAK anyways. Oh chit! Another can of worms was just throw into the mix! Sorry! It's only concern is what temp the stove stays at regardless of what your inside home temp remains at. That said, the higher the outside temp is in stove / constant burn mode the warmer inside temps are with the same exact settings. As the outside temps rise is the stove / constant burn mode going to use less or more pellets? LESS, because it will not have to burn as many as it would in colder temps to maintain that same temp at the ESP probe. Right?

I understand the cycling of HVAC central systems mentioned above also and certain things hold true. I'll ask another question. Is it better to have the distribution blower run more consistently or constant off and on cycles? Consistency wins because the on / off cycles ARE harder on the components, cut and dry. This I believe is where the igniterphobia comes into play. However, the igniter is not always cycling on / off like I feel many tend to believe. Same as the A/C 's non stop running when the temps are not met or the blower constantly runs.

I am going to find Big Foot now.....

Very Informative post....
1 question though:
where does[ or does not] feed rate fit it to all this concerning pellet consumption and Blower speed..?

 

[bags]

Tony,
Feed rate does concern pellet consumption, but in Room Temp Auto the stove takes pellets as needed up to set rate to maintain the set temperature you select. I guess a good way to describe it would be that the control board while operating in this mode will over ride what one sets to maintain set temp. It takes what it needs up to that rate. If the rate is too low it will not maintain and that is why many set it at 3-4 so the stove can. Same thing with everyone worrying about the endless igniter repeatedly cycling and burning up prematurely. Once the igniter lights the pellets it is game over and it hibernates. It no longer functions if there is fire. Some, I feel, have a huge misconception that it does IF the igniter mode remains in auto.

Now it is true that in Room Temp Auto Igniter mode that the igniter will likely cycle more as the stove shuts off completely during milder temps outside AKA: 'shoulder season'. This is where I feel most of the "worn out igniter" worries come into question and the igniters get more of a workout vs. when temps outside remain colder and fire in the burn pot tends to stay going. F4 got 6 or 7 years out of his original igniter working it like a sled dog each season. Then the crushing blow came and he had to drop a whopping $70 bucks (I think) and spend a few minutes replacing it with a new one that will likely run the same distance. I know what his intentions are with this post without question.

F4 (and I agree 100%) is simply stating it is not much to worry about in the failure department nor the bank account. More or less drive it like you stole it and enjoy the simple heat. All of the long time Harman guys say "Set it & Forget it" because that is exactly what needs to be done. It is tried and true methodology or logic dealing with general practices, procedure, and know facts that work well.

Feed rate gives much more control while operating in Stove Temp or Constant Burn (same thing but named differently depending on year and model).



F4, Sorry for the added debates getting away from IGNITERPHOBIA! You have created a new Debate Demon!

 

[bags]

Pellet feed rate and blower speed are two different animals. I explained how it does not necessarily equate to using more pellets above. If I am wrong here in logic then show how and / or why.

 

[woodmakesheat]

And then there's every other stove that isn't a Harman that uses a thermostat in "On-Off" mode until the weather gets consistently cold, then switches to "High-Low" mode to, you guessed it, prevent the stove from starting and stopping which 1) excessively uses the igniter and 2) takes too long for temperature to recover once it gets cold.

 

[SidecarFlip]

This thread has become way too complex for me. Just give me a squirt of gelled firestarter and a farm match and I'm good to go.

 

[Wilbur Feral]

I have a Quad Mt Vernon AE and WISH I had more control over when it cycled and dumped the burn pot. It admittedly does a great job with a lower quality pellet because of the autoclean that dumps the burn pot every 2-3 hours. But I could go much longer when burning a better quality pellet (which is all I try to burn now), and could avoid such frequent use of ignitor and, more importantly, the temp swings that occur because of them. But "quad knows best" seems to be their motto (with that infernal horrid proprietary thermostat) and it may prevent me from buying another of their products. I hate it when a company thinks they know far more than their customer about every aspect of the product's use.

 

[bogieb]

And then there's every other stove that isn't a Harman that uses a thermostat in "On-Off" mode until the weather gets consistently cold, then switches to "High-Low" mode to, you guessed it, prevent the stove from starting and stopping which 1) excessively uses the igniter and 2) takes too long for temperature to recover once it gets cold.

My St. Croix is on a thermostat, on SmartStat mode (turns off if no call for heat after a set period of time). I set the thermostat to have a 2F swing (in another room), and it works well for me. The stove is off a lot during some days and uses few pellets because 1) The Harman downstairs gets some heat upstairs and 2) if it is sunny out, the house gains heat thru the windows. If it is cloudy and cold, the St. Croix obviously works harder as I don't gain heat from the sun and at times I have come close to it running out of pellets.

Just like the Harman, I don't worry about the igniter going out on me because of cycling.

 

[Bioburner]

This thread has become way too complex for me. Just give me a squirt of gelled firestarter and a farm match and I'm good to go.

Real basic igniter

 

[F4jock]

Real basic igniter

The problem with manual ignition is that you have to be around to do it. I want to do two things with my stove; load it and clean it and that as little as possible which is why I got a Harman. Using manual ignition defeats the purpose.

 

[TimfromMA]

St Croix stoves have 2 thermostat modes. One that will cycle the stove on and off and the other only cycles stove on and idle. As a rule of thumb, if the outside temperature is above freezing, Ill let it cycle on and off. If its below freezing, I use the other mode.

 

[Bioburner]

St Croix stoves have 2 thermostat modes. One that will cycle the stove on and off and the other only cycles stove on and idle. As a rule of thumb, if the outside temperature is above freezing, Ill let it cycle on and off. If its below freezing, I use the other mode.

They have a couple non igniter models that burn straight corn and thermostat mode is low to set high burn. Low being 16k input which is pretty high IMO.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I hate it when a company thinks they know far more than their customer about every aspect of the product's use.
Wilbur Feral,
Today at 5:17 AM

I'd say from a vast majority of the posts on this site it's a much safer bet to have a company build a product that takes the 'fiddle factor' out of the equation. Most owners need to have their hands held or so it appears from this site....... just sayin.

Real basic igniter

We have lots of that (fuzz balls of hair here) for ignition, with a multitude of cats and a couple of dogs.................I need to dig out my flint and steel from the hunting stuff to be complete....

 

[alternativeheat]

The problem with manual ignition is that you have to be around to do it. I want to do two things with my stove; load it and clean it and that as little as possible which is why I got a Harman. Using manual ignition defeats the purpose.

But we Harman folks who also happen to be manual burners at times, use the igniter to light the stove. At least I do, I have never used a gel starter.. On the other hand, anyone who ever flipped that switch down has burned in manual mode, no matter how temporary a time that was. That Would constitute that person as having been a manual burner too !! Why live with Manualphobia, admit you have tried it .

 

[F4jock]

But we Harman folks who also happen to be manual burners at times, use the igniter to light the stove. At least I do, I have never used a gel starter.. On the other hand, anyone who ever flipped that switch down has burned in manual mode, no matter how temporary a time that was. That Would constitute that person as having been a manual burner too !! Why live with Manualphobia, admit you have tried it .

Not for more than a few hours once or twice during the day to see if I liked Stove Mode. I didn't.

 

[alternativeheat]

Not for more than a few hours once or twice during the day to see if I liked Stove Mode. I didn't.

F4, I don't care for Stove mode a whole bunch either, I use it two ways if to use it at all, well actually three.. In manual if visiting in the living room to knock down the blower and give a decent ambiance to the flame and the house doesn't need a bunch of heat.. In Auto if I actually expect heat ( full blower coverage etc.). in Auto for a set temp and falling outdoor temps expecting the central heat to take over at some point if it gets that cold out. I utilize My Harman's Controls as they were designed for ! There is no phobia, the controls are there to be used as I see fit to use them..

 

[woodmakesheat]

My St. Croix is on a thermostat, on SmartStat mode (turns off if no call for heat after a set period of time). I set the thermostat to have a 2F swing (in another room), and it works well for me. The stove is off a lot during some days and uses few pellets because 1) The Harman downstairs gets some heat upstairs and 2) if it is sunny out, the house gains heat thru the windows. If it is cloudy and cold, the St. Croix obviously works harder as I don't gain heat from the sun and at times I have come close to it running out of pellets.

Just like the Harman, I don't worry about the igniter going out on me because of cycling.

Well, there's my problem, I only have a single $1800 stove that needs to run almost full out to keep up in January. Why didn't I think to also put an additional $4000 stove in the basement? I should have dove right in with 2 $4k stoves! It's not like oil will ever be as cheap as pellets!

/s (/s means sarcasm)

 

[F4jock]

F4, I don't care for Stove mode a whole bunch either, I use it two ways if to use it at all, well actually three.. In manual if visiting in the living room to knock down the blower and give a decent ambiance to the flame and the house doesn't need a bunch of heat.. In Auto if I actually expect heat ( full blower coverage etc.). in Auto for a set temp and falling outdoor temps expecting the central heat to take over at some point if it gets that cold out. I utilize My Harman's Controls as they were designed for ! There is no phobia, the controls are there to be used as I see fit to use them..

My philosophy of stove is simple: If it's supposed to be automatic I expect it to be automatic. In Stove Mode the room temp varies with the outside temp, in Room Temp auto I get +/- 1 degree no matter. If the stove shuts down it restarts without my attention. One less thing for me to do.

 

[alternativeheat]

My philosophy of stove is simple: If it's supposed to be automatic I expect it to be automatic. In Stove Mode the room temp varies with the outside temp, in Room Temp auto I get +/- 1 degree no matter. If the stove shuts down it restarts without my attention. One less thing for me to do.

Well we have studies in the living room with several people in attendance and two to three different people speaking, music etc... Sometimes I don't want blower noise, I'm sure they appreciate that. In that case I use Stove Temp Manual, that's why they create it so in situations like that we can switch to that mode. I've even been known to use oil ( don't tell Harvey, he will assure me that I'm wrecking the planet and or the economy by burning a gallon or so, lol Harvey just kidding !)..

Day in and day out my stove is in Room Temp Mode, that may be Auto or Manual, the house doesn't know the difference. In the shoulder season it definitely is in Auto. The controls are put there to be used if I want to use them. And I do sometimes.

 

[F4jock]

Well we have studies in the living room with several people in attendance and two to three different people speaking, music etc... Sometimes I don't want blower noise, I'm sure they appreciate that. In that case I use Stove Temp Manual, that's why they create it so in situations like that we can switch to that mode. I've even been known to use oil ( don't tell Harvey, he will assure me that I'm wrecking the planet and or the economy by burning a gallon or so, lol Harvey just kidding !)..

Day in and day out my stove is in Room Temp Mode, that may be Auto or Manual, the house doesn't know the difference. In the shoulder season it definitely is in Auto. The controls are put there to be used if I want to use them. And I do sometimes.

When we have guests I just turn the fan max control down so it doesn't get in the way of conversation or music. Room is big enough where that works. I have the oil set at 62 for backup should the stove fail. I fire it during cleanings.

 

[bogieb]

Well, there's my problem, I only have a single $1800 stove that needs to run almost full out to keep up in January. Why didn't I think to also put an additional $4000 stove in the basement? I should have dove right in with 2 $4k stoves! It's not like oil will ever be as cheap as pellets!

/s (/s means sarcasm)

Um, the St. Croix, pad and exhaust pipe, cost less than your stove. Heck, even adding the cost of a ton of pellets and I didn't spend as much as your $1800 stove. Sorry to disappoint - but damn near everything I own has been used prior to my obtaining, and a majority I got off of CL after haggling price.