Inches away from buying a Alderlea T5 Insert - so what is the hold up? what would you do?

[ddddddden]

The T5 will put on a better light show. Anyhow, don't let the stove vendor pressure you into an installation different than what you want. There's no compelling reason for the vendor to do anything more than deliver the stove. What if your house already had a perfectly good chimney liner from a previous stove? Would you be worried that the vendor would not give you after-sale support on the stove if you didn't also buy a new chimney from them?

 

[ddddddden]

BTW, what is the size of your masonry flue? Smaller than 8" is a PITA to fit an insulated 6" liner into, so the clay flue tiles might need to be broken out and removed. Shouldn't be a problem for a pro, but something else for you to think about. . .

 

[cowtown]

BTW, what is the size of your masonry flue? Smaller than 8" is a PITA to fit an insulated 6" liner into, so the clay flue tiles might need to be broken out and removed. Shouldn't be a problem for a pro, but something else for you to think about. . .

No idea on the size - man you giving me sleepless nights .

Thanks for all the help.

 

[ddddddden]

Sorry to disturb your sleep. I think your next step is to find a good chimney guy to do the install. That should simplify dealing with the stove vendors. If they don't see the chimney installation the way you do, that's fine., they don't get to sell you a chimney. It really is a separate issue from the stove transaction. If you decide to shelve the project, you will probably find a better deal on the stove in the spring.

 

[cowtown]

Sorry to disturb your sleep. I think your next step is to find a good chimney guy to do the install. That should simplify dealing with the stove vendors. If they don't see the chimney installation the way you do, that's fine., they don't get to sell you a chimney. It really is a separate issue from the stove transaction. If you decide to shelve the project, you will probably find a better deal on the stove in the spring.

Plan of action tomorrow:

1. Hopefully get an e-mail back from WETT on thier take on insulating the liner
2. Hopefully get an answer from a second dealer on insulating a liner (this guy is selling the Jotul 450, i can't justify the extra cost for Jotul 450 over the T5)
3. Contact a WETT installer to see how he would install the insert

I don't think I will shelve the project, I am fired up about getting an insert in for this winter, even if it costs a bit more vs. getting it next spring.

I will let you know how it goes.

 

[ddddddden]

Fired up is good! Have you received the lecture on fuel quality? If you don't already have a supply of dry wood, you may not be able to find any, and you may be disappointed with the performance of a new stove trying to burn unseasoned wood. . .just another thing to consider before getting in a rush to buy a stove.

 

[cowtown]

Fired up is good! Have you received the lecture on fuel quality? If you don't already have a supply of dry wood, you may not be able to find any, and you may be disappointed with the performance of a new stove trying to burn unseasoned wood. . .just another thing to consider before getting in a rush to buy a stove.

I have heard this many times - thanks. Yes, I am getting the insert more to supplement my heating and not with the idea of heating 24/7.

I have a big problem with making a fire in my existing fireplace and that 95% of the heat goes up the chimney. Hence, me looking into an inset.

I bought some wood out here (a cord of ash) that the guy says has been drying for two years - so I hope I can trust him on that.

I will let you know how things go today.

 

[ddddddden]

Yeah, the thing about buying wood is that different folks have different ideas on "drying." Some think that if the tree is dead, it must be drying. Maybe so, but not as quickly as when it is cut and split. Anyhow, Ash is one of the quicker drying species, so you may be okay this year. If you get the stove, get more wood for next year ASAP, so that you can season it yourself.

 

[ddddddden]

I just read through your other thread. A few thoughts: OAK. . .your thinking about drawing cold air directly into the stove, rather than through the house may be correct, but I recall an installation by someone in Alaska who had to draw the air from their crawlspace because outside air was too cold for the stove. . .maybe couldn't get secondary burn. . .I don't recall all the details. Something to think about, if you see -40 often. Mantle shield. . .I've seen some very nice ones done in copper. Look for pics of Dreezon's install. T6 insert. . .it's called the Summit. Okay, it doesn't have the pretty iron cladding, but it's the same stove. Would probably require a mantle shield though. . .see above. If you remain fired up, you're going to want a larger stove in the space you have. More heat and/or longer burns. Everybody wants that. Lastly, $5k for a T5!?!! Is that including chimney and installation? If not, I'd look into ordering from www.chimneysweeponline.com

 

[cowtown]

I just read through your other thread. A few thoughts: OAK. . .your thinking about drawing cold air directly into the stove, rather than through the house may be correct, but I recall an installation by someone in Alaska who had to draw the air from their crawlspace because outside air was too cold for the stove. . .maybe couldn't get secondary burn. . .I don't recall all the details. Something to think about, if you see -40 often. Mantle shield. . .I've seen some very nice ones done in copper. Look for pics of Dreezon's install. T6 insert. . .it's called the Summit. Okay, it doesn't have the pretty iron cladding, but it's the same stove. Would probably require a mantle shield though. . .see above. If you remain fired up, you're going to want a larger stove in the space you have. More heat and/or longer burns. Everybody wants that. Lastly, $5k for a T5!?!! Is that including chimney and installation? If not, I'd look into ordering from www.chimneysweeponline.com

$5,000 - yea, weclome to Canada

$5,000 all in all done (includes the removale of some brick from the fireplace - I have some brick extended out from the face that needs to be taken down)

The Summit clearance is not enough and would require a mantle shield. My guy will only go with the mantle shield issued by the company, e.g. Hearthstone has a mantle shield that is ugly, but it is the only one my guy will use.

Also just called another installer - he does not belive in insulating the liner either, maybe it is a Calgary thing. So I don't think I am insulating the liner.

I don't see -40 often, but I do see it.

 

[kingquad]

I just read through your other thread. A few thoughts: OAK. . .your thinking about drawing cold air directly into the stove, rather than through the house may be correct, but I recall an installation by someone in Alaska who had to draw the air from their crawlspace because outside air was too cold for the stove. . .maybe couldn't get secondary burn. . .I don't recall all the details. Something to think about, if you see -40 often. Mantle shield. . .I've seen some very nice ones done in copper. Look for pics of Dreezon's install. T6 insert. . .it's called the Summit. Okay, it doesn't have the pretty iron cladding, but it's the same stove. Would probably require a mantle shield though. . .see above. If you remain fired up, you're going to want a larger stove in the space you have. More heat and/or longer burns. Everybody wants that. Lastly, $5k for a T5!?!! Is that including chimney and installation? If not, I'd look into ordering from www.chimneysweeponline.com

$5,000 - yea, weclome to Canada

$5,000 all in all done (includes the removale of some brick from the fireplace - I have some brick extended out from the face that needs to be taken down)

The Summit clearance is not enough and would require a mantle shield. My guy will only go with the mantle shield issued by the company, e.g. Hearthstone has a mantle shield that is ugly, but it is the only one my guy will use.

Also just called another installer - he does not belive in insulating the liner either, maybe it is a Calgary thing. So I don't think I am insulating the liner.

I don't see -40 often, but I do see it.

You can't do a self install in Canada?

 

[ddddddden]

I think maybe he doesn't feel up to DIYing this. . . Anyhow, $5k isn't too horrible for the whole shebang. T5 goes for ~ $3k, so that's $2k for chimney + installation. . .certainly top dollar, but not unheard of in pricey regions. However, if I were paying that kind of $ for a chimney install, the recipient of my $ would sure as *@!# be putting in a block off plate, if requested. Dan, when you say "my guy," do you mean the stove shop's guy. Again, there's no reason that he has to be your guy. Yes, I you talked to another installer who also does not believe in insulating flues. . .I would keep calling chimney guys until I found one who spoke my language(even if it is hearth.com groupspeak), then have him out to the house for an estimate. . .may be less than $2k.

I'm ~1000mi south of you and I went with an insulated liner. Not required for safety, because my 12x12" flue has 2"+ on all sides of the liner. Probably din't really need it, but spotty draft in an exterior chimney was my main reason for changing the stove(couldn't get a liner on the old insert.) For ~ $150 extra, I figured insulation was worth it. For an exterior chimney in your climate, I see no reason to not insulate the flue, unless your masonry flue won't accommodate it.

 

[ddddddden]

. . .The Summit clearance is not enough and would require a mantle shield. My guy will only go with the mantle shield issued by the company, e.g. Hearthstone has a mantle shield that is ugly, but it is the only one my guy will use. . .

AFAIK, a mantle shield is generic hearth hardware, generally not made by stove mfrs.
Is is possible that the term is being mixed up with the "surround panel" for an insert, which is made by the stove mfr but usually does not shield the bottom of the mantle?



A mantle shield can be painted.
(broken link removed to http://forrestpaint.com/index.php?page=stove-bright-aerosol-numbers-colors-2)



Here's a snazzy copper mantle shield. If you can't stand the sight of it, I guess you are stuck with a smaller stove. Doh!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/56453/

 

[cowtown]

I just read through your other thread. A few thoughts: OAK. . .your thinking about drawing cold air directly into the stove, rather than through the house may be correct, but I recall an installation by someone in Alaska who had to draw the air from their crawlspace because outside air was too cold for the stove. . .maybe couldn't get secondary burn. . .I don't recall all the details. Something to think about, if you see -40 often. Mantle shield. . .I've seen some very nice ones done in copper. Look for pics of Dreezon's install. T6 insert. . .it's called the Summit. Okay, it doesn't have the pretty iron cladding, but it's the same stove. Would probably require a mantle shield though. . .see above. If you remain fired up, you're going to want a larger stove in the space you have. More heat and/or longer burns. Everybody wants that. Lastly, $5k for a T5!?!! Is that including chimney and installation? If not, I'd look into ordering from www.chimneysweeponline.com

$5,000 - yea, weclome to Canada

$5,000 all in all done (includes the removale of some brick from the fireplace - I have some brick extended out from the face that needs to be taken down)

The Summit clearance is not enough and would require a mantle shield. My guy will only go with the mantle shield issued by the company, e.g. Hearthstone has a mantle shield that is ugly, but it is the only one my guy will use.

Also just called another installer - he does not belive in insulating the liner either, maybe it is a Calgary thing. So I don't think I am insulating the liner.

I don't see -40 often, but I do see it.

You can't do a self install in Canada?

I think one could do it - but I am not up for the job.

 

[cowtown]

I think maybe he doesn't feel up to DIYing this. . . Anyhow, $5k isn't too horrible for the whole shebang. T5 goes for ~ $3k, so that's $2k for chimney + installation. . .certainly top dollar, but not unheard of in pricey regions. However, if I were paying that kind of $ for a chimney install, the recipient of my $ would sure as *@!# be putting in a block off plate, if requested. Dan, when you say "my guy," do you mean the stove shop's guy. Again, there's no reason that he has to be your guy. Yes, I you talked to another installer who also does not believe in insulating flues. . .I would keep calling chimney guys until I found one who spoke my language(even if it is hearth.com groupspeak), then have him out to the house for an estimate. . .may be less than $2k.

I'm ~1000mi south of you and I went with an insulated liner. Not required for safety, because my 12x12" flue has 2"+ on all sides of the liner. Probably din't really need it, but spotty draft in an exterior chimney was my main reason for changing the stove(couldn't get a liner on the old insert.) For ~ $150 extra, I figured insulation was worth it. For an exterior chimney in your climate, I see no reason to not insulate the flue, unless your masonry flue won't accommodate it.

3 installers have now indicated to me that they are against any insulation on the liner - so again, I don't know if it is a calgary thing or not.

Yes "my guy" is the stove shop guy - his intentions are good, he things he is doing what is best.

In terms of getting a guy out to look at my setup. That will not happen here in Calgary (I know, you are probably shaking your head). In fact, a quick story, I e-mail a company for a quote of exactly what I was looking for with pictures of my setup this past Tuesday (last week), I then called thursday to follow up, then again on Friday. The guy calls me back today at work saying "yea, I might get a quote out today, but we will see". I said to him, "I find it very strange that I am the one spending money and that I am the one chasing you down for a quote!". But this is Canada and more specifically Calgary (where the economy is very good and people don't have to hustle for business).

So here I am, simply waiting for a quote from the new guy (the guy I had to contact many times simply to get a quote).

 

[cowtown]

. . .The Summit clearance is not enough and would require a mantle shield. My guy will only go with the mantle shield issued by the company, e.g. Hearthstone has a mantle shield that is ugly, but it is the only one my guy will use. . .

AFAIK, a mantle shield is generic hearth hardware, generally not made by stove mfrs.
Is is possible that the term is being mixed up with the "surround panel" for an insert, which is made by the stove mfr but usually does not shield the bottom of the mantle?



A mantle shield can be painted.
(broken link removed to http://forrestpaint.com/index.php?page=stove-bright-aerosol-numbers-colors-2)



Here's a snazzy copper mantle shield. If you can't stand the sight of it, I guess you are stuck with a smaller stove. Doh!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/56453/

Den

I really appreciate all the help - I hope I don't dissapoint you when I get the insert installed and I don't have the insulation nor the block off plate.

I will try to post some pictures (if I am able to figure it out) of my existing fireplace and a link to my house on google maps (so you can see the chimney)

 

[cowtown]

. . .The Summit clearance is not enough and would require a mantle shield. My guy will only go with the mantle shield issued by the company, e.g. Hearthstone has a mantle shield that is ugly, but it is the only one my guy will use. . .

AFAIK, a mantle shield is generic hearth hardware, generally not made by stove mfrs.
Is is possible that the term is being mixed up with the "surround panel" for an insert, which is made by the stove mfr but usually does not shield the bottom of the mantle?



A mantle shield can be painted.
(broken link removed to http://forrestpaint.com/index.php?page=stove-bright-aerosol-numbers-colors-2)



Here's a snazzy copper mantle shield. If you can't stand the sight of it, I guess you are stuck with a smaller stove. Doh!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/56453/

Forgot to answer your question, no I know what the "surround panel" is vs. the shield. Again hearthstone recommend a sheild and the guy insisted on using it.

Plus the insert is already a tough sell on the wife, and she will not want to look at a mantle shield.

 

[cowtown]

. . .The Summit clearance is not enough and would require a mantle shield. My guy will only go with the mantle shield issued by the company, e.g. Hearthstone has a mantle shield that is ugly, but it is the only one my guy will use. . .

AFAIK, a mantle shield is generic hearth hardware, generally not made by stove mfrs.
Is is possible that the term is being mixed up with the "surround panel" for an insert, which is made by the stove mfr but usually does not shield the bottom of the mantle?



A mantle shield can be painted.
(broken link removed to http://forrestpaint.com/index.php?page=stove-bright-aerosol-numbers-colors-2)



Here's a snazzy copper mantle shield. If you can't stand the sight of it, I guess you are stuck with a smaller stove. Doh!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/56453/

Den

I really appreciate all the help - I hope I don't dissapoint you when I get the insert installed and I don't have the insulation nor the block off plate.

I will try to post some pictures (if I am able to figure it out) of my existing fireplace and a link to my house on google maps (so you can see the chimney)

Link to Chimney
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=39+Can...=m&z=17&vpsrc=0&panoid=PyGL76dsKWd18Nc_iUgg1g

Pics of the fireplace to be converted (from my iPod) so the quality is not very good.

 

[BrowningBAR]

. . .The Summit clearance is not enough and would require a mantle shield. My guy will only go with the mantle shield issued by the company, e.g. Hearthstone has a mantle shield that is ugly, but it is the only one my guy will use. . .

AFAIK, a mantle shield is generic hearth hardware, generally not made by stove mfrs.
Is is possible that the term is being mixed up with the "surround panel" for an insert, which is made by the stove mfr but usually does not shield the bottom of the mantle?



A mantle shield can be painted.
(broken link removed to http://forrestpaint.com/index.php?page=stove-bright-aerosol-numbers-colors-2)



Here's a snazzy copper mantle shield. If you can't stand the sight of it, I guess you are stuck with a smaller stove. Doh!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/56453/

Forgot to answer your question, no I know what the "surround panel" is vs. the shield. Again hearthstone recommend a sheild and the guy insisted on using it.

Plus the insert is already a tough sell on the wife, and she will not want to look at a mantle shield.

Maybe I'm missing something, which is quite possible, but the installers/dealers you've been speaking with seem like a bunch of clowns. My frustration level would be quite high at this point if I were dealing with these people.

Good luck to you and I hope your stove buying adventure ends well for you.

 

[cowtown]

. . .The Summit clearance is not enough and would require a mantle shield. My guy will only go with the mantle shield issued by the company, e.g. Hearthstone has a mantle shield that is ugly, but it is the only one my guy will use. . .

AFAIK, a mantle shield is generic hearth hardware, generally not made by stove mfrs.
Is is possible that the term is being mixed up with the "surround panel" for an insert, which is made by the stove mfr but usually does not shield the bottom of the mantle?



A mantle shield can be painted.
(broken link removed to http://forrestpaint.com/index.php?page=stove-bright-aerosol-numbers-colors-2)



Here's a snazzy copper mantle shield. If you can't stand the sight of it, I guess you are stuck with a smaller stove. Doh!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/56453/

Well, the insert will be better than the existing masonry fireplace, so I am happy about that. Am I getting the most I can for my money - no, but the improvment will be substantial. Thanks again.

Forgot to answer your question, no I know what the "surround panel" is vs. the shield. Again hearthstone recommend a sheild and the guy insisted on using it.

Plus the insert is already a tough sell on the wife, and she will not want to look at a mantle shield.

Maybe I'm missing something, which is quite possible, but the installers/dealers you've been speaking with seem like a bunch of clowns. My frustration level would be quite high at this point if I were dealing with these people.

Good luck to you and I hope your stove buying adventure ends well for you.

 

[cowtown]

. . .The Summit clearance is not enough and would require a mantle shield. My guy will only go with the mantle shield issued by the company, e.g. Hearthstone has a mantle shield that is ugly, but it is the only one my guy will use. . .

AFAIK, a mantle shield is generic hearth hardware, generally not made by stove mfrs.
Is is possible that the term is being mixed up with the "surround panel" for an insert, which is made by the stove mfr but usually does not shield the bottom of the mantle?



A mantle shield can be painted.
(broken link removed to http://forrestpaint.com/index.php?page=stove-bright-aerosol-numbers-colors-2)



Here's a snazzy copper mantle shield. If you can't stand the sight of it, I guess you are stuck with a smaller stove. Doh!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/56453/

Well, the insert will be better than the existing masonry fireplace, so I am happy about that. Am I getting the most I can for my money - no, but the improvment will be substantial. Thanks again.

Forgot to answer your question, no I know what the "surround panel" is vs. the shield. Again hearthstone recommend a sheild and the guy insisted on using it.

Plus the insert is already a tough sell on the wife, and she will not want to look at a mantle shield.

Maybe I'm missing something, which is quite possible, but the installers/dealers you've been speaking with seem like a bunch of clowns. My frustration level would be quite high at this point if I were dealing with these people.

Good luck to you and I hope your stove buying adventure ends well for you.

Well, it will be better than the masory fireplace that I have now in terms of heat, so I am happy about that. Am I getting the most for my money, no, but it appears here in Calgary, they don't belive in insulation on the liner.

 

[branchburner]

I stumbled across this line, which might help explain why these guys don't insulate:

"Note that the rules for liners are slightly different in Canada, with the result that insulation around liners is not used as often as in the US."
http://woodheat.org/liner-advice.html

Exactly why that might be, I cannot say. But you might as well relax and let your WETT guy do it his way. Enjoy!

 

[ddddddden]

Dan, It's your house, your heat, and your $. The only person you need to worry about disappointing is you. . .and maybe the Mrs. Okay, so you've decided to get the T5 for ~ $3k. How 'bout taking a pause and putting as much effort into choosing a chimney for $2k? I'm sure the boomtown thing is part of it (oil $ ?), but I'm not surprised that you can't get a chimney guy out right away. It's their busy season. . .probably started getting busy a month ago up there.

Plenty of folks on here run without insulation, but I am surprised at someone being "against" flue insulation. Like I said, if your masonry flue is large enough to accept it, I see no reason to recommend against insulation, other than laziness, and ~ $200 cost, which is not very significant in a $5k project. I was not going to insulate. Some knowledgeable folks said I didn't really need it in my climate, and I didn't feel like wrestling with gluing it onto the liner and then worrying about ripping it during installation. . .then I came across the InsulFlex liner which came with the insulation already attached inside an aluminum sleeve. Cost ~ $150 more than a plain liner, and the only extra work was lugging 50 lbs onto the roof instead of 20 lbs. Both insignificant to me in the context on ensuring optimal draft in as wide a range of conditions as possible.

I would keep calling chimney guys. I have to believe that a city of ~ 1,000,000 has at least 1 chimney guy who is going to say,"Block off plate?. . .Absolutely. It's the only way to fly. Yeah, I can get out there next week. . ." In the meantime, you could read up about chimneys. That www.woodheat.org site is a good place to start.
Flex pipe? Rigid pipe? ICC, Magnaflex, Selkirk, Simpson? All kinds of choices to make!

 

[ddddddden]

Option 3: Line the chimney with a poured-in cement-insulation slurry. No screwing around. . .insulated and blocked-off, by design. No debate required. :coolsmile:
Cost is slightly more than an insulated stainless liner, but a metal liner really is pretty simple DIY. If I were going to pay $2k+ for a liner installation, this is how I'd go. . .kind of like how I order in a restaurant; I don't get something that I can make easily at home.
Now you just have to find a guy in Calgary who does this. . .

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/75136/

(broken link removed to http://www.supaflu.com/index.htm)

1-800-788-7636

 

[cowtown]

I stumbled across this line, which might help explain why these guys don't insulate:

"Note that the rules for liners are slightly different in Canada, with the result that insulation around liners is not used as often as in the US."
http://woodheat.org/liner-advice.html

Exactly why that might be, I cannot say. But you might as well relax and let your WETT guy do it his way. Enjoy!

Yes, I came across this as well, but I have seen things on this site where Canadian people have installed an insulated liner. Yes, I think I am leaning to just letting the WETT guy do his thing.