Indirect vs electric DHW with a electric boiler as backup

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Dutchie84

Member
Jun 15, 2016
63
Nova Scotia, Canada
If you have an electric boiler as back up to a wood boiler would you install an indirect DHW tank running on the electric boiler in the summer and wood/electric in the winter, or install a plain electric hot water tank with FPHX or sidearm to run on wood in the winter?

So many options when starting from scratch
 
I'd go with the standalone electric water heater because there'd be more loss through the electric boiler, plus I think an electric water heater might be cheaper to buy even with a heat exchanger compared to an indirect tank.
 
This is my situation. I did heat exchangers & ordinary electric water heater (80 gal). Started out with sidearm & convection, ended up with adding a 20 plate flat plate & pumping both sides. Controlled by a Johnson A419, domestic side is pumped with a small B&G Ecocirc. When not heating with wood, I let the heater elements do it. Very satisfied. I don't think I would heat my DHW with my electric boiler.
 
I have a GE geo-spring heat pump hot water heater in the basement near my wood stove. I love it, never had to take it out of the heat pump mode unless we have company and will have having 4-5 showers in a row. In winter time its in the 80's in the basement to it works very efficiently. It also dehumidifies in the summer and keeps the basement very comfortable. Its not for everyone, you are trading space heat for DHW. It makes sense to me burning wood. I know you are trying to take advantage of the wood boiler so it might be less relevant.
 
Maple I read your install a few times. Lol A long with many others. I will very likely end up with a system similar to yours. I was just looking a Garn with the electric elements as a backup to take advantage of the time of day $ but with the CAD dollar and shipping it will be big $$$$$. I'm sure I could do the stand alone boiler with propane tanks or something else for much cheaper. Either way I'll probably be just running the an electric boiler to get the house built and then build a system after I'm moved in.

How about this for storage???? I wish.
(broken link removed to http://www.kijiji.ca/v-business-industrial/dartmouth/storage-tanks-2-40-cubic-meter-capacity-pressure-rated/1166773811?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true)
 
Maple I read your install a few times. Lol A long with many others. I will very likely end up with a system similar to yours. I was just looking a Garn with the electric elements as a backup to take advantage of the time of day $ but with the CAD dollar and shipping it will be big $$$$$. I'm sure I could do the stand alone boiler with propane tanks or something else for much cheaper. Either way I'll probably be just running the an electric boiler to get the house built and then build a system after I'm moved in.

How about this for storage???? I wish.
(broken link removed to http://www.kijiji.ca/v-business-industrial/dartmouth/storage-tanks-2-40-cubic-meter-capacity-pressure-rated/1166773811?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true)
I believe that last year I read about a house in that was basically built around a 5,000 gallon tank that was heated via solar:). As to the question on DHW, I have an Indirect tank which was recently tied to my thermal storage and use my propane boiler as a back up for it. A few points from my end of the world: 1. Indirect Tanks are surprisingly very expensive 2. The high water temperature required creates challenges of its own (I use low flow/design temps to heat the house which would never heat DHW) 3. Having DHW tied to my thermal storage I see: a. how much energy they lose just sitting there b. how many times a day it needs to be brought back to temp )previously it was obviously using a lot of propane that I just did not pay much attention to). Not sure what I would do if I was starting from scratch, I would definitely investigate the "on-demand" DHW heaters. Not sure if they are good or bad, took my plumbers advice at the time. Knowing what I know now I would do my own research and come to my own conclusion.
 
Yeah I considered on demand DHW too but if I go with a electric boiler (back up) for space heating that with eat up a good chunk of my 200 amp electric service so I won't have room for a electric on demand DHW and I don't want to go to a bigger service. All along I was think of going with propane boiler, fireplace, range, Barbq and indirect DHW. But for something that I hope will be used very little I'm thinking electric boiler, range and DHW might be better/cheaper. And then just have the fireplace(more for looks) and barbecue propane.
 
Yeah I considered on demand DHW too but if I go with a electric boiler (back up) for space heating that with eat up a good chunk of my 200 amp electric service so I won't have room for a electric on demand DHW and I don't want to go to a bigger service. All along I was think of going with propane boiler, fireplace, range, Barbq and indirect DHW. But for something that I hope will be used very little I'm thinking electric boiler, range and DHW might be better/cheaper. And then just have the fireplace(more for looks) and barbecue propane.
It is water under the bridge for me so I try not to Monday morning quarterback myself - so not sure what I would do. Just wanted to share my experience as the 3 things I pointed out were kind of a surprise to me but I am not very bright...........
 
Maple I read your install a few times. Lol A long with many others. I will very likely end up with a system similar to yours. I was just looking a Garn with the electric elements as a backup to take advantage of the time of day $ but with the CAD dollar and shipping it will be big $$$$$. I'm sure I could do the stand alone boiler with propane tanks or something else for much cheaper. Either way I'll probably be just running the an electric boiler to get the house built and then build a system after I'm moved in.

How about this for storage???? I wish.
(broken link removed to http://www.kijiji.ca/v-business-industrial/dartmouth/storage-tanks-2-40-cubic-meter-capacity-pressure-rated/1166773811?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true)

Wow on the tanks - that's like 8000 gallons. With the right place to put them, and some heavy dickering on the price, and a capable boiler - I would give one of those some thoughts. The dickering would need to be VERY heavy though.

I was checking out the NSP site just last week about time of day, actually. They have come around a bit - I have thought about getting into time of day rates, or seeing if I could with this setup but still not convinced. They used to be strict about having a real 'ETS' system in order to get them, for one thing - their wording about that seems to be more relaxed now. Would have to ask them to know for sure - I would just need to add a timer & plumb in one new short pipe with a zone valve in it to heat all my storage with my electric boiler when I wanted to. But there are strings attached. The base rate goes from $10 to $18/mo, for one thing - then this time of year, your consumption at 'normal' hours (7am-12pm, 4pm-11pm, or thereabouts) is at $0.03/kwh more. (0.18 vs. 0.15). TOD rates are 0.08, 11pm-7am or so. My monthly bill is only around 100 total right now (not using electric boiler). I might be better off just putting in a mini-split if I wanted to heat more using electricity, although wouldn't be as comfortable - even burning electricity with $0.07/kwh cheaper TOD rates will still be expensive with an electric boiler. I think I'll try to hit up a homeshow that they are at this spring, and put the questions to them. A timer on the hot water heater in the summer would save too - but that only costs me in the area of $25/mo anyway. So would only save in the area of $10-15/mo - vs. 0.03 more on non-TOD use plus $8/mo more base charge.

They have also changed up their PV/net metering stuff since I looked last. They will actually buy back excess production at the end of the year, at standard rates. Something else to quiz up on at a homeshow - I don't think there are any incentives.
 
Wow on the tanks - that's like 8000 gallons. With the right place to put them, and some heavy dickering on the price, and a capable boiler - I would give one of those some thoughts. The dickering would need to be VERY heavy though.

I was checking out the NSP site just last week about time of day, actually. They have come around a bit - I have thought about getting into time of day rates, or seeing if I could with this setup but still not convinced. They used to be strict about having a real 'ETS' system in order to get them, for one thing - their wording about that seems to be more relaxed now. Would have to ask them to know for sure - I would just need to add a timer & plumb in one new short pipe with a zone valve in it to heat all my storage with my electric boiler when I wanted to. But there are strings attached. The base rate goes from $10 to $18/mo, for one thing - then this time of year, your consumption at 'normal' hours (7am-12pm, 4pm-11pm, or thereabouts) is at $0.03/kwh more. (0.18 vs. 0.15). TOD rates are 0.08, 11pm-7am or so. My monthly bill is only around 100 total right now (not using electric boiler). I might be better off just putting in a mini-split if I wanted to heat more using electricity, although wouldn't be as comfortable - even burning electricity with $0.07/kwh cheaper TOD rates will still be expensive with an electric boiler. I think I'll try to hit up a homeshow that they are at this spring, and put the questions to them. A timer on the hot water heater in the summer would save too - but that only costs me in the area of $25/mo anyway. So would only save in the area of $10-15/mo - vs. 0.03 more on non-TOD use plus $8/mo more base charge.

They have also changed up their PV/net metering stuff since I looked last. They will actually buy back excess production at the end of the year, at standard rates. Something else to quiz up on at a homeshow - I don't think there are any incentives.

Yeah I looked at the net metering thing, but I think it is way to much hassle with all of their requirements. And I'm sure they have a lot more hoops for you to jump through. If I remember right you have to put in a system that is big enough to satisfy your whole house. So if you are going that big then you are more or less just using NSP as a battery bank, sending it out to them when you have extra power and drawing from them when you need it. A guy that I work with put in a bunch of solar panels and wanted to do the net metering and they gave him such a hard time he told them to shove it and come disconnect the grid from his house. No he building a windmill for the cloudy days and running on a Honda generator when he needs to. I don't think my wife would like that lifestyle change lol