insert installation questions

[msjones2452]

Another new guy here. First, I would like to thank everyone on here for all the great information. I've been perusing through the forum for about a month now trying to get ideas/information about wood inserts. I've finally made up my mind and am ordering the Enviro Cabello 1700 tomorrow. I'm not necessarily new to wood burning but all of my experience is with an open masonry fireplace. I'm looking forward to having something that will actually put some heat in the house instead of outside!

I have a couple of quick installation questions though. First, the floor of my masonry firebox is around an inch lower than the hearth, should I build up the floor a little to make it more level with the hearth? I know the insert has leveling legs but I don't know HOW much they will level - the specs don't say. Also, I was thinking it would make sliding the insert into the opening a little easier. I don't have a lot of height clearance in the opening. If so, what would you use? I was thinking just paver stones and a piece of cement board.

Second, do I need to use anything to seal the appliance connector to the liner/stove such as stove/furnace cement? I've watched several videos and read multiple articles about the installation process. Only one video mentions using stove cement to seal the appliance connector to the liner/stove.

Finally, I read somewhere on here about insulating the masonry firebox. Unfortunately, I can't remember right now who posted the thread but I have a question about it. Is there any concern with a nuclear meltdown of your insert? My guess is that as long as I maintained minimum clearances and had an air gap between the insert and insulation it should be o.k. Also, should I bring the Roxul all the way against the liner/stove connector or should I maintain an air gap there also?

Sorry, I know that's a lot but I'm ordering the insert tomorrow and getting ready to order the liner also. I'd like to try having as much of this planned out as possible. You know, well laid plans of mice and monkeys

Thanks,

Matt

 

[jatoxico]

Hi Matt,
Definitely raise the floor of the firebox. I had the identical situation and had mine "professionally installed". They neglected to (even though I told them) bring some tile or something to raise it and it was never right. Was cocked in the opening and was resting on the surround which its not meant to do. When I reinstalled I used 2 layers cement board and now its level and I can slide the unit around and make adjustments no problem, Will be a big help when installing,

Mellow did a good job detailing his insulating and experience here;
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/

Again well worth it. I did not have a block off plate or insulation at first and the only advantage was that I got to run both ways so I was able to see what a positive difference it makes. I don't think you want Roxul to be in direct contact with the top or any part of the unit for risk of blocking air inlets. Best way up top is stuff Roxul above the damper and fill the smoke shelf etc then put metal block off plate an inch or two above the steel lintel which should give you a couple inch gap to the actual stove top.

Most don't seem to use or need stove cement at the flue connection as long as you make a good fit. Won't hurt but how long it stays in place seems to vary.

 

[begreen]

Welcome. That is a nice insert. If this is an exterior wall fireplace install a block-off plate. You can use Roxul to pack above the liner and at the chimney top under the cap too. No space from the liner needed.

 

[Hogwildz]

Many insert come with leveling bolts, check your model and see if it does, you may not need to raise the fireplace floor.
Install a block off plate regardless of interior or exterior chimney. Keep the heat in the house and not up the old chimney.

 

[jatoxico]

Not to be disagreeable but...my stove has leveling bolts however 1" is (was) a lot to make up. I expect they will be all the way out just to get it to right height if they even go that far. Mine are in the back only with none in front so they had to shim the front. All in all it was a mess. IMO get it to the nominal correct height with tile or cement board then use the leveling bolts to make the 1/8" or so adjustments to get it just right. With some cheap cheap or damaged floor tile could be done for <$10 and save headaches.

 

[Grisu]

Have your chimney swept and preferably inspected before installation. Are you getting an insulated liner? Certainly highly recommended, especially when you have an exterior chimney.

Since you have already read here for a while you probably know the importance of dry wood. That will be a big change between fireplace and insert.

 

[msjones2452]

Thanks everyone for the info. Ordered the Cabello 1700 this morning, 4-6 weeks from the factory.......bummer. Oh well, it gives me time to get some other stuff done. I'm definately installing a block off plate and I'm seriously considering insulating the masonry firebox. I've read Mellow's post several times. Ordering a smooth wall liner from Rockford and yes I'm fully insulating it. Talked to the dealer about the leveling bolts, he's not 100% sure but was thinking the bolts were only about an inch long total. At any rate, my firebox is OVER an inch lower than the hearth so.......raise the floor I will!

Begreen, I was thinking about putting some Roxul at the top of the chimney also but wasn't sure how much that would help. I will have a rather short liner. My masonry chimney is only 15' so the liner will be a little shorter than that. The dealer didn't think it would be any issue. I'm a little worried about not having enough draft. I don't really want to add any additional "extension" above the chimney if I don't have to. So anything I can do to keep that liner drafting is a bonus.

The chimney get's cleaned and inspected in a couple weeks. Wood this year will be a little bit of a problem. I only have a little bit split/seasoned and maybe 1/4 cord unsplit. I just haven't stock piled very much because we don't really use the fireplace anymore, just for ambiance. It costs too much to re-heat the house once the fire goes out.

Thanks again,

Matt

 

[Grisu]

Look for ash and softwoods to be stacked early spring. Those have a good chance to dry over one good summer. Top covering helps, IMHO, and is almost mandatory for softwoods. I don't think you said if the fireplace was at an interior or exterior wall. Insulating it (other than block-off plate) will only help with an exterior one. For an interior wall fireplace there is no gain.

I will look forward to see some pics once the stove is installed and burning.

 

[msjones2452]

Look for ash and softwoods to be stacked early spring. Those have a good chance to dry over one good summer. Top covering helps, IMHO, and is almost mandatory for softwoods. I don't think you said if the fireplace was at an interior or exterior wall. Insulating it (other than block-off plate) will only help with an exterior one. For an interior wall fireplace there is no gain.

I will look forward to see some pics once the stove is installed and burning.

Thanks Grisu, I've got a buddy up the hill that has a ton of beatle kill pine. Not the best, but I can have all I want for free and he's willing to help cut, load and haul! How could you beat that? He usually gets started around end of March. Other than that, I've got a fairly good contact for quite a bit of "seasoned" hardwood (yea right!). That'll cost but it's not bad. I figure I'll get a cord or two here and there throughout the spring/summer and start a stockpile. Hopefully by this time next year I'll have a fairly decent supply of both that are realatively well seasoned. Luckily I have a fairly decent size area that gets a lot of sun in the summer to store it.

My chimney is on an exterior wall on the North side of the house, bairly any sun during the winter. So, yea, insulation is a must. I'm considering pouring the vermiculite in but I've had guy's tell me it's not worth the extra $$. They've all said that the wrap will work just as well. Any opinions?

 

[jatoxico]

Jump all over that pine. Biggest problem for first year burners is wood quality. A healthy supply of dead pine further dried for a season will be good burning and would help to burn any other marginal wood you might want to mix in. I thought I was prepared my first year with my 2/yr CSS locust but could have been better. I can have all hardwood in my stacks but try to have a fair amount of pine or similar each year.

I thought about doing a poured in insulation but if you ever want to modify or sell in the future it seems like an unneccesarily permanent option. If the chimney needs to be stabilized that's a different story but as far as I've heard the wrapped liners do the job fine. Just stuff the smoke shelf and do the block off and you'll be way ahead of the game,

 

[bholler]

My chimney is on an exterior wall on the North side of the house, bairly any sun during the winter. So, yea, insulation is a must. I'm considering pouring the vermiculite in but I've had guy's tell me it's not worth the extra $$. They've all said that the wrap will work just as well. Any opinions?

We pour insulation allot in chimneys with a tee and crock but rarely in fireplaces it generally takes a ton of material and is difficult to seal the bottom really well. Wrap will be fine. When you say smooth wall what type are you referring to? If you are considering the 2 ply stuff i would urge you to reconsider i find them difficult to work with and easy to damage both installing and cleaning. We either use heavy wall or mid weight liners for wood but even regular light wall in my opinion is a better liner that the light smooth wall stuff. If you do desire to pour it that is still reversible it is not as easy as a wrapped liner but definitely still doable.

 

[msjones2452]

We pour insulation allot in chimneys with a tee and crock but rarely in fireplaces it generally takes a ton of material and is difficult to seal the bottom really well. Wrap will be fine. When you say smooth wall what type are you referring to? If you are considering the 2 ply stuff i would urge you to reconsider i find them difficult to work with and easy to damage both installing and cleaning. We either use heavy wall or mid weight liners for wood but even regular light wall in my opinion is a better liner that the light smooth wall stuff. If you do desire to pour it that is still reversible it is not as easy as a wrapped liner but definitely still doable.

This is the liner I was looking at:

(broken link removed to http://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/smooth-liner-only.php)

It was recommended by a local installer, not that brand specifically but smooth wall in general. It's the heaviest smooth wall I've found, there is definately thinner stuff out there. Any recommendations on other brands/types/places to order?

 

[bholler]

It's the heaviest smooth wall I've found

no actually it is the lightest smooth wall around They add the 2 separate layers together for their thickness which is very misleading because if the very thin inner layer is compromised the entire liner is. This is the type of liner we use for wood it is made from much thicker material and the construction technique is much more durable.
http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/1243/category/Flex-King-HD-Insert-Kit-(wood).html
This pipe costs quite a bit more and i under stand it does not fit into everyone's budget but i would go with regular light wall over that 2 layer stuff any day.

 

[msjones2452]

no actually it is the lightest smooth wall around They add the 2 separate layers together for their thickness which is very misleading because if the very thin inner layer is compromised the entire liner is. This is the type of liner we use for wood it is made from much thicker material and the construction technique is much more durable.
http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/1243/category/Flex-King-HD-Insert-Kit-(wood).html
This pipe costs quite a bit more and i under stand it does not fit into everyone's budget but i would go with regular light wall over that 2 layer stuff any day.

Cost isn't an issue when it comes to quality. I tried looking up the Flex King HD but it really doesn't say much. Both liners state they are smooth wall, can you give me a little more information on the differences? I really want to do it right the first time.

 

[bholler]

Cost isn't an issue when it comes to quality. I tried looking up the Flex King HD but it really doesn't say much. Both liners state they are smooth wall, can you give me a little more information on the differences? I really want to do it right the first time.

We dont actually use flex king that is just the first link to a heavy wall flex liner that i found. But heavy flex is made with one peice of thicker steel it is made with .010" to .018" while the metal used for the other stuff is only .005" or .006". Also the heavy wall is made with a continuous interlock where as the other stuff is crimped on the outer layer but the inner layer has the one edge loose which can easily buckle or get snagged by a brush.
here is another example
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimn...-304L-Chimney-Liner-Kits?state=5728|5745|5734

 

[msjones2452]

bholler,

Got it, thanks. That makes a lot of sense. It is a little misleading about the thickness of the two ply stuff, it makes sense when you actually look at it though. I'll be looking at other liners now. Unfortunately now I may have more time to look since I found out today that Enviro has discontinued the Cabello in the enamel brown. The wife will be displeased with that one!

 

[Grisu]

Unfortunately now I may have more time to look since I found out today that Enviro has discontinued the Cabello in the enamel brown.

That's disappointing. Have you looked at the Hearthstone Clydesdale and Quadrafire Grand Voyageur? If you would consider a freestanding, rear-vented stove you would have a few more options (e. g. Quadrafire Explorer, Jotul F500, Hearthstone Shelburne potentially)

 

[msjones2452]

That's disappointing. Have you looked at the Hearthstone Clydesdale and Quadrafire Grand Voyageur? If you would consider a freestanding, rear-vented stove you would have a few more options (e. g. Quadrafire Explorer, Jotul F500, Hearthstone Shelburne potentially)

Grisu, I have looked at both of those inserts. I really liked both of them, especially the Quadrafire, but unfortunately they don't fit. While I have a fairly large firebox, the opening is kind of an odd size. The Clydesdale is something like 1/4" or 1/2" too tall (I think, I'll have to check again) and the Quadrafire is almost 2" too tall. I don't think the Grand Voyager's little brother has a big enough firebox. As far as freestanding stoves, it would be difficult at best. I have a raised hearth that is only 18" deep, a low but wide firebox opening and a wife that absolutely despises freestanding wood stoves.

Thanks for the recommendations though. I originally was very interested in the Hampton HI400 hybrid. Then I read about all of the problems with the Regency version of that insert and decided against it. Not sure right now, but my guess is that we'll probably just get the basic black version of the Cabello. It won't fit in quite as well with the look of my family room but I think it'll still look o.k.

 

[RockfordChimney]

no actually it is the lightest smooth wall around They add the 2 separate layers together for their thickness which is very misleading because if the very thin inner layer is compromised the entire liner is. This is the type of liner we use for wood it is made from much thicker material and the construction technique is much more durable.
http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/1243/category/Flex-King-HD-Insert-Kit-(wood).html
This pipe costs quite a bit more and i under stand it does not fit into everyone's budget but i would go with regular light wall over that 2 layer stuff any day.

msjones2452,
bholler is correct in his advise about the heaviness and lightness of the liners. However, from our experience, the smooth wall chimney liner is favored by homeowners due to the combination of smooth interior and weight. The heavy flex is just that - heavy! Homeowners doing a one time job prefer the smooth wall because it will not wear out, is warrantied, and isn't extremely heavy so it makes for an 'easier' installation. If you have any additional questions while deciding, please don't hesitate to ask.

 

[bholler]

However, from our experience, the smooth wall chimney liner is favored by homeowners due to the combination of smooth interior and weight.

And when i scan most of this type of liner after it is installed by a novice i find at least one spot where that inner liner is puckered. I am sorry yes it is lighter and easier to install but it also damages very easily. I installed 2 of this type and will never do it again. I have since swapped out one of them at my cost.

 

[bholler]

bholler is correct in his advise about the heaviness and lightness of the liners. However, from our experience, the smooth wall chimney liner is favored by homeowners due to the combination of smooth interior and weight. The heavy flex is just that - heavy! Homeowners doing a one time job prefer the smooth wall because it will not wear out, is warrantied, and isn't extremely heavy so it makes for an 'easier' installation. If you have any additional questions while deciding, please don't hesitate to ask.

And while i have you here i am curious why one of your reps would give this advise without any questions at all when in most cases it is required to meet code?

I agree with you, although, insulation is helpful in reducing the amount of creosote that is formed, by keeping the exhaust gasses warmer, and also gives you add protection should a chimney fire develop. It is only a recommendation, not a requirement to have.