Install hot water heat system from scratch?

[Badfish740]

Have any hearth.com boiler room members done HWH system in a new home or converted from forced air themselves? After the umpteenth story about plummeting home values we've decided that the home we're in (our first-we bought three years just as the mess was starting) is likely to be our last, so we're making much longer term plans than we used to. In order accommodate the coming little ones we need one more full bath and one more bedroom for a total of three bedrooms and two full baths. The addition I've sketched out will simply be a 15' x 26' box tacked onto the rear of our existing home. This will provide the space for two new bedrooms. One of the existing bedrooms will be divided into space for a hallway to access the two new bedrooms, and a full bath connected to the master bedroom. I've been fooling around with ideas in Google Sketchup (amazing tool considering it's a free download) and made up a graphic to illustrate the existing house vs. the planned addition:

The blue walls are the existing walls of the home so you can pretty much tell what the original building envelope looks like. The pink walls represent the planned new construction. The grey walls represent the present bedroom which will be cut up into a hallway and a master bathroom. I realize this isn't a DIY construction site, but I figured that some background would be helpful. Right now the home has a 6 year old forced air oil furnace which we supplement with the Englander 28-3500 add-on which is integrated into the existing ductwork. The Englander is great and it works well for now, but we both hate the forced air heat. There are lots of cold spots in the house no matter what we do, and the dryness is just awful in the dead of winter. In any event, we want to be rid of it when we renovate. I will be doing a lot of the work myself-my FIL is in the construction industry and will be serving as my adviser for the entire project. He will get me subs for the excavation, foundation (there will be a full basement under the addition), and electrical, but the rest we'll be doing ourselves/with the help of a few laborers. Basically I'm trying to get an idea of what skills, tools, etc...I need to install an oil boiler myself.

First, obviously I'm starting from scratch as there is no existing infrastructure for hot water heat. Part of what always made me leery of hot water heat was sweating copper and working with rigid pipe in general. Despite a lot of DIY experience this was something I never quite mastered. Lately though I've been reading a lot about PEX and it's applications in hot water heating. I also happened to see an episode of "Ask This Old House" where they used PEX to add a zone to an existing hot water heat system and it looked fairly straightforward. Is installing a boiler these days really as easy as running attaching PEX to each zone valve, snaking it up to the appropriate baseboard, and then doing the same to bring it back to the cold side of the boiler? I'm hoping so since working with flexible PEX would be a lot easier than cutting copper pipe, sweating elbows, etc... I have the basic idea of how a boiler works down, but one thing I know nothing about is sizing baseboards for a room-can anyone tell me what a good installation would look like in house like mine? I know that I need to do a heat loss calculation to size the boiler, but I have no idea for example how much baseboard an 11 x 14 bedroom or an 8 x 11 bathroom needs. Plus I'd like to heat my garage as well-not sure how to proceed there. I'm definitely going to incorporate storage, I'm just not sure how much at this point. As I said before, there will be a full height basement underneath the addition, and with the slope of the existing grade, it won't take much to make it a walkout, so I'm seriously considering installing a small (8 x 7 or so) overhead door and making the new nearly 400 SF area the boiler room. I'd like to install them upright-I could quite easily fit four upright 250 gallon propane tanks for a 1000 gallons of storage total. Anyway, I'd very interested to see pictures/threads related to installing a HWH system from scratch!

 

[NCPABill]

It sounds like you have your work cut out ahead of you. I'm not good enough to tell you how to do any of the things you asked about, but I'll give you the free advise that you're likely to get from your construction manager relative.

1. Bump your addition over from the corner 1' to 2' - it makes it look much better, especially if there is any bow or tilt to any walls.
2. If your addition is a basic construction type, use trusses - there is not a substantial savings in stick framing the roof yourself, only a considerable loss in hours. If you do, build your walls the same top plate elevation. Then measure the heel height of the existing roof framing and give this info (and info about overhangs, pitch, etc.) to your truss company. The end result is two roof lines which meld together smoothly, rather than one which is a little higher, making a more difficult roofing transition. Clear as mud?
3. I have had baseboard all of my life and wouldn't have anything else.....until I found a radiant set-up. I would recommend that you investigate radiant heating wherever possible throughout your house and addition. When your consider a wood boiler, especially for a lifetime house, try to get a storage set-up, which radiant makes much better use of (lower water temperatures, greater delta T, etc.)

I'm sorry if this sounds preachy, it certainly isn't my intent. I'm a little excited for you - although you have a lot of hard work ahead, it is mostly a fun process (other than the paying part!)

Good luck,

Bill

 

[Badfish740]

It sounds like you have your work cut out ahead of you. I'm not good enough to tell you how to do any of the things you asked about, but I'll give you the free advise that you're likely to get from your construction manager relative.

1. Bump your addition over from the corner 1' to 2' - it makes it look much better, especially if there is any bow or tilt to any walls.
2. If your addition is a basic construction type, use trusses - there is not a substantial savings in stick framing the roof yourself, only a considerable loss in hours. If you do, build your walls the same top plate elevation. Then measure the heel height of the existing roof framing and give this info (and info about overhangs, pitch, etc.) to your truss company. The end result is two roof lines which meld together smoothly, rather than one which is a little higher, making a more difficult roofing transition. Clear as mud?

Thanks-I'll bet my FIL would probably agree with all of that. I know what I want in terms of space but I don't pretend to know the best way to actually frame it all out.

3. I have had baseboard all of my life and wouldn't have anything else.....until I found a radiant set-up. I would recommend that you investigate radiant heating wherever possible throughout your house and addition. When your consider a wood boiler, especially for a lifetime house, try to get a storage set-up, which radiant makes much better use of (lower water temperatures, greater delta T, etc.)

That's a question I've been debating with myself a bit. I could easily install radiant in 75% of the house (including the addition) because it's all unfinished on the underside. Only the ceiling under the living room, dining room, and kitchen is covered with sheetrock. I suppose I could just make that area a separate zone and use baseboards. What has me hesitating about radiant is complaints that the house never feels warm enough, but that seems to be due to most folks running temperatures that are too low.

I'm sorry if this sounds preachy, it certainly isn't my intent. I'm a little excited for you - although you have a lot of hard work ahead, it is mostly a fun process (other than the paying part!)

Good luck,

Bill

Absolutely not! This is why I come here with all of my crazy ideas

 

[woodsmaster]

I would go underfloor radiant first choice. Panel radiators second choice. No baseboard, It is cheaper but takes higher temp water to use effectively. Not ideal for a wood boiler with storage.

 

[Badfish740]

I would go underfloor radiant first choice. Panel radiators second choice. No baseboard, It is cheaper but takes higher temp water to use effectively. Not ideal for a wood boiler with storage.

I'm slowly learning this having just discovered a thread which explains Delta-T pretty well. 180-120 vs. 180-140 = a lot more draw down time.

 

[jebatty]

Quick hip-shots and nothing to do with heating. Switch Master and BR1, have BR1 and BR2 share the bathroom between them, also an access door from the hallway to the bathroom. Make the other bathroom the master bathroom, no access from the hall. Use doors on the diagonal to the now switched master bedroom and BR1, eliminates wasted hall space. Where possible, go with 36" doors and plan for disabled access to at least one bathroom and all other possible places.

 

[tom in maine]

If you are not well acquainted with plumbing, you can still do a fair bit of the grunt work with PEX.
A simple system would use radiant panels in each room with PEX going back to a main mainifold. Connections on both
ends can be PEX, with no soldering. You can have someone who is experienced install the boiler and manifolds.

If you opt for radiant staple up systems, you can really save over the installed cost. But be advised, that the complexity
will go up since you are dealing with loop length limitations, perhaps some sub-manifolds and lots of tubing and installation.

I installed a radiant panel system in my daughter's house a couple years ago, after tearing out the hot air system.
The 5 panels were installed and plumbed in about 2 hours. It was a 1200 sq. ft. house. Talk about instant gratification!

I used Biasi panels, but there are lots of them out there. The Biasi's were pretty reasonably priced.

Of course, she now uses a pellet stove exclusively for heat and the oil system has not run for over three years!!

 

[in hot water]

My next home or major remodel would be radiant floors in nthe bathrooms and kitchen, panel radiators elsewhere. Install the radiators with TRV thermostatic radiator valves at each unit for best control and adjust-ability.

I agree with Tom on a manifold system with pex al pex tubing for ease of installation, requiring one connection at each end with a compression union.

Consider a solar thermal option, DHW and maybe some extra capacity for the heating. Check at www.dsireusa.org for any incentive deals in your state, in addition to the 30% federal tax credit. It may cover some high efficiency upgrades or appliances also.

Is air conditioning a need or desire? Could the home be sold down the road without A/C in your area? If so a ducted system or the mini splits may be needed, have a plan for adding A/C.'

Here is a link for a good read on manifold distribution.


http://www.caleffi.us/caleffi/en_US...gazine_detail_0000073/type/magazine/index.sdo



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[Badfish740]

My next home or major remodel would be radiant floors in nthe bathrooms and kitchen, panel radiators elsewhere. Install the radiators with TRV thermostatic radiator valves at each unit for best control and adjust-ability.

I agree with Tom on a manifold system with pex al pex tubing for ease of installation, requiring one connection at each end with a compression union.

Consider a solar thermal option, DHW and maybe some extra capacity for the heating. Check at www.dsireusa.org for any incentive deals in your state, in addition to the 30% federal tax credit. It may cover some high efficiency upgrades or appliances also.

Is air conditioning a need or desire? Could the home be sold down the road without A/C in your area? If so a ducted system or the mini splits may be needed, have a plan for adding A/C.'

Here is a link for a good read on manifold distribution.


http://www.caleffi.us/caleffi/en_US...gazine_detail_0000073/type/magazine/index.sdo

AWESOME links! Thanks hot! This is exactly what I was hoping for-hopefully my FIL can get me a plumber who can install both boilers and all manifold piping (I can serve as the tool monkey/errand, which will hopefully save on labor cost and teach me something the in the process), then I can install the radiators (nice looking pieces), PEX, etc... Funny-I remember seeing radiators identical to those (may have even been the same brand) when my wife and I went to Italy on our honeymoon-after that I read that they're an Italian company. With regard to A/C we have central air now and it's awful. The unit is undersized, I actually suspect that the air handler was installed improperly, and even though I've sealed like crazy in the places I can get to, the ducts still leak like sieves. I've always been a big believer in A/C in the ceiling since it seems to make much more sense to introduce cold air to the top of a room rather than the bottom. Not to mention the fact that every register seems to be located in a spot where we'd want to put furniture. The plan is to install a whole new system with the air handler in the attic with fully insulated ducts which will then be buried in the R-60 cellulose.

 

[NCPABill]

Any updates on your plans?

 

[stee6043]

Sounds like a fun project all around! My first recommendation is to take your time. Enjoy the build!

I'll also say that radiant in-floor should be your first choice for heat, in my opinion. Especially if you have easy access in the basement. I'm going to be removing drywall ceilings in my basement someday soon so I can install radiant in floor - that's how bad I want it. You can't beat it for efficiency and comfort.

If you'd like a quick view of what might be involved in a boiler install (wood) check out the thread below. Boilers are 100% doable for the DIYer but you have to take the time read read read. There are a lot of opportunities to miss things. It's not quite as easy as "hot water out, cold water in" but it's also not rocket science. In-floor radiant has it's own set of tricks and tips as well. Loop length, insulation and controls (floor sensors, mixing, etc) seem to be hotly discussed topics and there is a lot of info out there.

Either way - enjoy!

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/32524/

 

[pybyr]

Radiant floors are delightful in terms of the "warm toes" you experience, but they are inherently and unavoidably really slow to respond- you've got to change the temperature of a large diffuse mass before you experience a change in the room. The quality type panel radiators can "turn on a dime" by comparison- letting you keep any given room at only the temperature you want at a given time- warming it up fast when you want, letting it be cool when that is OK. With the newer ECM pumps that throttle back flow and electric consumption when less flow is called for to meet heat loads, having many zones that you can turn down except when needed will save not only on BTUs but on electric consumption (lots of the US in-floor radiant systems end up being inadvertent monuments to tons of pumps and associated electric consumption). So I strongly second HR that radiant floors might be nice in selected spaces like bath and kitchen, with panel radiators everywhere else. In fact for a mix of straightforward to build, efficient to run, responsive, flexible, etc., I think panel radiators leave all the other options in the dust. I don't have them myself, but having beat my head against various things and seen many variations of things implemented, the panel rads just stand out as practical and elegant. If piles of cash and free time suddenly and unexpectedly befall me, I'd be putting in panel radiators faster than I could type this paragraph.

 

[jebatty]

Another non-heating system suggestion. Remove that wall separating the LR from the DR, resulting in one large, open and flowing living area from the kitchen to the LR. That's the way our house is built and it works very well. Also allows the DR table to be put in either direction.

Family and guests love to congregate around the kitchen and food. Opening up the floor plan allows for a much more informal, comfortable arrangement, plus allows for easily handling larger family/friend groups.