Installation and stove size advice

[msal]

Hi everyone, new to the forums. I'm looking to install a wood stove in my house and I'm in the planning phase. We have oil heat currently but would like to use the stove as a primary heat source (not just supplemental here and there). I've got a lot of questions!

My house is a ranch with a full unfinished walkout basement, we've been here for about a year now. The first floor is ~1500 square feet. The house was built in 1995 and has pretty good insulation/windows. We live on the Maine/NH border, about halfway up NH. Last winter was pretty darn cold.

I was given an older Federal Airtight stove from my father, from the early 80s I think. It seems like a really big stove (~22inches wide, must weigh at least 600lbs). The original plan was to install the stove in the basement, and go out and up the back side of the house, outside. There is a single room in the basement that is sort of finished - I had planned to take down those walls since they weren't done well in the first place, and adding registers at first, and maybe eventually ductwork. Could be a lot of work, but worth it, right?

After a good deal of lurking online, I'm now thinking I should just look for a newer model stove. My biggest concern is the 8" flue collar on the back of the stove. From what I've read, I should stick with 8" pipe all the way up. Not only will this be most efficient (and safest), but trying to reduce to 6" pipe will probably violate code and cause issues with my homeowners insurance. Also, the price difference between 6" and 8" triple wall pipe is very large. I might actually save money by just buying a new stove outright.

I've also waffled back and forth regarding going out and up through the basement after further lurking. It sounds like it would be much more efficient to stick the wood stove right in the living room on the first floor. My wife and I figure that the corner in the living room on the inner side of the house would be the only possible spot, as it's pretty much dead center of the house.

A somewhat unrelated sidenote. I've got another federal airtight out in the garage that's much smaller, about 1'x2' box. I thought maybe I could use this in the detached garage one day, but that's something I'll deal with at a much later date.

On to the questions!

1. Are my findings regarding an 8" flue collar correct? Is there any way to use this stove without spending a boatload?
2. Is it a bad idea to try to run the stove from the basement? I'm not only worried about efficiency, but also safety since the stove will be 'out of sight'. I would also have to go away from the house quite a bit to clear my soffit vents, and would need to go very far above the roof line as well per code. Not sure if I would have issues with snow piling up against the pipe, or stability issues in storms. If we are OK with having the stove in the living room, is it a no-brainer to put it on the first floor and go up through the attic?
3. If I decide to go with a new stove, what size should I consider? I've heard good things about Englanders. Would something like the 13nc (1800sq ft) suffice, or would I be better off with something like the 30nc? I'm worried that the 13nc won't keep up since we get pretty cold winters. On the other hand, I don't want to underfire the 30nc or have to keep windows open just to cool the place down! I guess my real question is, how accurate are the manufacturers specifications?
4. I can't use the smaller stove (out in the garage) in the house, right? I assumed it was too small. I couldn't find a model number or anything on it.

Sorry for an essay, thanks ahead of time.

MSal

 

[begreen]

Welcome. The stove is primarily an area heater. You can heat from the basement, but with some caveats and unless the basement walls are insulated, with some serious heat loss (up to 33%). That heat loss will mean a lot more wood consumed to do the job. If this were my house and I was trying to keep costs down I would forget about the Federal and 8" pipe. Instead I would get an Englander 30NC or a Drolet HT2000 and run 6" chimney pipe. As far as heating upstairs, it will depend on where the stove and the stairway is located. Hopefully the stairway it centrally located. If so, try to locate the stove close to the open stairway as possible and perhaps consider putting a couple return air grilles in the floor at the opposite ends of the house.

For the best success plan on insulating the basement walls and for sure you are going to want to have several cords of fully seasoned wood on hand. That can be a challenge the first year so you may need to supplement with kiln dried wood or solid fuel bricks or logs. If insulating the basement is out you might want to consider putting the stove on the main floor. The smaller Federal might work there to put a dent in the heating bill, but not for 24/7 heating.

 

[msal]

Welcome. The stove is primarily an area heater. You can heat from the basement, but with some caveats and unless the basement walls are insulated, with some serious heat loss (up to 33%). That heat loss will mean a lot more wood consumed to do the job. If this were my house and I was trying to keep costs down I would forget about the Federal and 8" pipe. Instead I would get an Englander 30NC or a Drolet HT2000 and run 6" chimney pipe. As far as heating upstairs, it will depend on where the stove and the stairway is located. Hopefully the stairway it centrally located. If so, try to locate the stove close to the open stairway as possible and perhaps consider putting a couple return air grilles in the floor at the opposite ends of the house.

For the best success plan on insulating the basement walls and for sure you are going to want to have several cords of fully seasoned wood on hand. That can be a challenge the first year so you may need to supplement with kiln dried wood or solid fuel bricks or logs. If insulating the basement is out you might want to consider putting the stove on the main floor. The smaller Federal might work there to put a dent in the heating bill, but not for 24/7 heating.

Thanks for the quick response! It sounds to me like I might just be better off installing the stove on the 1st floor. The big pro for me was not taking up living space and instead using some of our unused basement space, but I think my wife and I are OK with that now. Going up through the attic will be a lot cheaper as well, since I won't need nearly as much insulated pipe. I had considered using the larger federal on the 1st floor but it is really large, and once I put in an 8" pipe I am stuck with it so the 6" seems like a better choice.

I forgot to mention, I'm not sure how good of shape the smaller federal is in. It looks like one of the corners might be degrading a little bit, and need to be re-joined.

Assuming I go with a new stove and a 1st floor installation... do you think the 30NC would be overkill vs the 13NC? It seems well worth the extra $250 in the long run to go for the larger stove, but I don't want to go too big! Again, the upstairs is roughly 1500 square feet, decent insulation. I know the 13NC is rated to 1800 square feet, but I'm skeptical and we get pretty cold winters...

Thanks again

 

[begreen]

Sounds like you would be better off with a new stove. In the budget range for a 2 cu ft stove also look at the Pacific Energy TN19 or Super 27 and the Heatilator WS18. In a larger stove yes, consider the Englander 30NC, Drolet Myriad or HT2000 and the Heatilator WS22. All of these stoves take a 6" flue. Both sizes will work, the larger 3.0 cu ft stoves will afford longer burntimes and more reserve capacity for very cold days.

 

[Grisu]

I agree with the choice of installing the stove in the main living area. I am sure you will enjoy the heat and flame show. When you want to go with an Englander stove consider the new Madison model: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/madison-in-my-burn-trailer.128150/ Its firebox size is ideal for the area you want to heat and it only needs ember protection for a hearth. If your wife would like to have something nicer looking there take a look at the Jotul F45 Greenville. It has a good-size firebox and Jotul still has its woodstove changeout program that saves you $300 when you trade-in your old airtight. (broken link removed to http://jotul.com/us/campaign)

As for the other stove in the garage: Most local building codes don't allow a wood stove in the garage. Check with your code inspector and also your home insurance whether you can install the second stove there.

How many cords of wood do you already have drying in your yard? Without dry wood you won't do much burning this winter.

 

[firefighterjake]

Random thoughts . . .

Make sure you check in with your insurance company before going too far . . . insurance companies are all over the board when it comes to woodstoves -- some will charge a premium, others charge nothing, some will require professional installations, others will have mandatory inspections and I've heard a very few will flat out not insure a property with a woodstove.

Wood . . . biggest newbie mistake made by most folks is not cutting, splitting and stacking the wood many months in advance. Most folks get the woodstove and then start getting the fuel . . . and sadly, since many start thinking about a woodstove during this time of year or early fall, typically any wood they buy or find just will not work very well in a modern woodstove.

New stove vs. old stove: For me this was a no-brainer. Cleaner burn and burn less wood with a new stove. Yes, the lure of a cheap or free woodstove vs. buying a brand new stove can be tempting . . . but me . . . I like to have the long, clean burns that you get with a modern woodstove and burn less wood in the process -- since wood is never free -- you're either buying it or taking the time to process it so burning less = money and/or time saved. A few other benefits of going new is knowing that the stove should be free of any issues (i.e. you're not getting something that may need to be repaired soon . . . or down the road) and the newer stoves offer a very nice view of the fire.

Stove size: Some very good advice I got here when I first joined was to figure out the size of your house and then get a stove one size larger than what you need. I can only think of a handful of folks here who have bought a stove and then sold it when they realized it was just too large for their home . .. on the otherhand there are many folks here who bought a stove which was just too small for their home and they needed to buy a larger stove. As I have said in the past . . . and others have said . . . you can always build a small fire in a large woodstove when you only need a small amount of heat, but it's much harder to build a larger fire in a small woodstove when you need more heat.

Stove placement: It's your house, but I suspect a lot of us folks who have sacrificed the living space to place the stove in the area where we congregate the most often would do it again in a heartbeat . . . yes, there is the savings from not having to buy as much stove pipe (or Class A vent) and yes it does allow you to more easily monitor the woodstove . . . but it also gives you that great view of the fire which you may find quite mesmerizing (I know I often turn off the TV or stop reading in the evening and just watch the fire) and more importantly you will receive more of that heat directly and indirectly.

 

[msal]

Sounds like you would be better off with a new stove. In the budget range for a 2 cu ft stove also look at the Pacific Energy TN19 or Super 27 and the Heatilator WS18. In a larger stove yes, consider the Englander 30NC, Drolet Myriad or HT2000 and the Heatilator WS22. All of these stoves take a 6" flue. Both sizes will work, the larger 3.0 cu ft stoves will afford longer burntimes and more reserve capacity for very cold days.

I'll have to check out these other stoves, I haven't looked at much besides the Englander and Pleasant stoves.

I agree with the choice of installing the stove in the main living area. I am sure you will enjoy the heat and flame show. When you want to go with an Englander stove consider the new Madison model: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/madison-in-my-burn-trailer.128150/ Its firebox size is ideal for the area you want to heat and it only needs ember protection for a hearth. If your wife would like to have something nicer looking there take a look at the Jotul F45 Greenville. It has a good-size firebox and Jotul still has its woodstove changeout program that saves you $300 when you trade-in your old airtight. (broken link removed to http://jotul.com/us/campaign)

As for the other stove in the garage: Most local building codes don't allow a wood stove in the garage. Check with your code inspector and also your home insurance whether you can install the second stove there.

How many cords of wood do you already have drying in your yard? Without dry wood you won't do much burning this winter.

Isn't the Madison the same as the Englander 13nc? I checked out the Jotul, it looks like it's only rated to 1500 sq ft. I've read that you want to go at least a size up... I would be worried this one would be too small. The trade in program is nice though, maybe I'll check out the bigger Jotul's as well. Could I trade in either one of my Federal Airtights? Too bad I'm not 2-3 miles east or I would get additional discounts in ME . The stove in the garage is a non-issue for now, not something I'm worried about for the time being, but I'l definitely check with the inspector and insurance if I ever decide to pursue that.

So... about the wood... Zero wood stacked. Definitely not ideal. Worst case scenario, I use it in emergency situations only (this is part of the reason we wanted the stove in the first place, last year was scary with no backup heat) for this winter. If that occurs though, I'm not sure how I'll deal with 'curing' the stove. Also, are there any ill-effects of not using a stove frequently, then firing it up suddenly when I lose power in 0 degree weather? I originally thought I would just have to pony up and buy some pre-seasoned wood, but it sounds like even that won't actually be seasoned as long as it should be.

FYI I have 27+ acres of woods out back and loggers made a mess of things before I purchased the property - downed trees everywhere, pretty messy/unprofessional job. I have a friend who is willing to drag up some of the downed hardwood (I believe there is some, going to walk back there with him again) up to the house for me to chop up. These trees have been downed for ~2 years, and are somewhat elevated and not laying in the dirt. Does this count as seasoned wood, or did they not season sufficiently since they're not cut up (less surface area, sun exposure, etc.)?

I'm aware that I should be seasoning wood for 3 years. I am going to get on the ball here this season and cut some up from outback, potentially buy some pre-seasoned, etc. to set myself up a little better for next season. Then next season, hopefully I can establish a 3 year supply. My main concern right now though is this season! Any suggestions? I've read about purchasing kiln dried wood, and I know there is a seller nearby. Could I get by on that for this year? Is it that bad to burn 'seasoned' (supposedly) wood that I've purchased, that may have only been seasoned a single year? Am I just SOL?

Random thoughts . . .

Make sure you check in with your insurance company before going too far . . . insurance companies are all over the board when it comes to woodstoves -- some will charge a premium, others charge nothing, some will require professional installations, others will have mandatory inspections and I've heard a very few will flat out not insure a property with a woodstove.

Wood . . . biggest newbie mistake made by most folks is not cutting, splitting and stacking the wood many months in advance. Most folks get the woodstove and then start getting the fuel . . . and sadly, since many start thinking about a woodstove during this time of year or early fall, typically any wood they buy or find just will not work very well in a modern woodstove.

New stove vs. old stove: For me this was a no-brainer. Cleaner burn and burn less wood with a new stove. Yes, the lure of a cheap or free woodstove vs. buying a brand new stove can be tempting . . . but me . . . I like to have the long, clean burns that you get with a modern woodstove and burn less wood in the process -- since wood is never free -- you're either buying it or taking the time to process it so burning less = money and/or time saved. A few other benefits of going new is knowing that the stove should be free of any issues (i.e. you're not getting something that may need to be repaired soon . . . or down the road) and the newer stoves offer a very nice view of the fire.

Stove size: Some very good advice I got here when I first joined was to figure out the size of your house and then get a stove one size larger than what you need. I can only think of a handful of folks here who have bought a stove and then sold it when they realized it was just too large for their home . .. on the otherhand there are many folks here who bought a stove which was just too small for their home and they needed to buy a larger stove. As I have said in the past . . . and others have said . . . you can always build a small fire in a large woodstove when you only need a small amount of heat, but it's much harder to build a larger fire in a small woodstove when you need more heat.

Stove placement: It's your house, but I suspect a lot of us folks who have sacrificed the living space to place the stove in the area where we congregate the most often would do it again in a heartbeat . . . yes, there is the savings from not having to buy as much stove pipe (or Class A vent) and yes it does allow you to more easily monitor the woodstove . . . but it also gives you that great view of the fire which you may find quite mesmerizing (I know I often turn off the TV or stop reading in the evening and just watch the fire) and more importantly you will receive more of that heat directly and indirectly.

Yup, I've already emailed my local inspector, waiting to hear back or get a call back. I'll be calling the insurance company and talk with the inspector before I purchase anything. I was planning on doing the installation myself, with some help from family most likely who has experience with this. If my insurance requires a professional install I'll be annoyed for sure, and may consider switching companies if it's an option. I understand having to get an inspection.

At this point, my wife and I have decided to go with a new stove, and for the placement to be in the living room (1st floor). Thanks everyone for providing more information for us to make a knowledgeable decision!

Regarding stove size: I would rather go with the bigger 30nc (2400 sq ft) over the 13nc (1800 sq ft) due to the box size, ability to have longer overnight burns, avoid ash on my floor (read a lot about it spilling out when the door opens on the 13nc). My big concern is whether this is too much stove for my house. Can anyone weigh in on this specifically? I know it depends on the house, but any additional input on this would be great. Maybe I'm just worrying to much about it and should go big.

Thanks everyone!
MSal

 

[begreen]

The Madison is a new stove and quite different from the 13NC. It is larger (2.4 cu ft), more efficient and requires ember protection only for the hearth. It also has a new air control that allows one to preset it for a low burn.

In your climate zone the 30NC should not be too much stove. You control the amount of wood loaded and burning. Run smaller loads of lower heat wood in fall and spring and burn full loads of your best hardwood in the winter.

FWIW, we were told by the local PE dealer that our stove was too big for the house and climate. He wouldn't sell it to us. I ended up buying from a great shop 90 miles north of us and have not regretted getting the larger stove for a minute. The Madison would probably heat your place fine, so will the 30NC. One will be idling a bit more in milder weather but it will have more reserve capacity when pushed during very cold weather.

 

[Grisu]

In general, there is no such thing as a stove that is too big. You can always load less wood to get less heat. That said, I don't see the point in buying a large stove that can be filled to capacity only a few days per year and most of the time needs to run on half loads. Those are more work and I doubt you will get the optimal efficiency that a modern stove can have. A cool flue is also more likely to accumulate creosote. For reference, I heat my 1300 sqft upstairs floor in VT with a 2 cu ft insert down into the single digit outside temps quite well and I would not describe my home as well insulated. I also have no problems with supplementing some "conventional" heat for the below zero days but opinions differ on that. For someone who wants to solely heat with wood going a size bigger is not a bad advice. Btw. Look at firebox sizes, not at sqft ratings when comparing different stoves.

Do you know how much oil (in gl) you used last winter in January and/or February? With that info we can calculate your heating load and size the stove based on that.

The Madison is a new stove and different from the 13NC (which would be too small). It has a 2.4 cu ft firebox. Its advantage over the 13NC and 30NC is that it only needs ember protection as hearth. For the 30NC you need one with a r-value of 1.5. For a larger Jotul I would look at the F55. There is also the F50 but due to its top-loading technology it is almost as expensive as the slightly larger F55. There are certainly other large stoves out there. It depends what is your budget and what look you prefer.

Wood: The logs are unlikely to be dry and could be pretty punky by now. Your best bet from your lot would be too look for standing dead trees with the bark off. Not all species need 3 years of drying although it does not hurt. Start with ash and softwoods like pine. Those dry sufficiently over one good summer. Then work up to maple, cherry etc. until you come to oak and hickory that need 3 years. Kiln-dried wood is ok but ask what moisture content they dry it to. Some suppliers just want to kill bugs and not dry out the wood. Lumber scraps and pallets would be other sources of dry wood. Finally, you could purchase compressed wood logs like Envi-blocks, Bio-Bricks etc. Those will get you through the first winter although the savings won't be as great.

A stove does not need to be used all the time. However, you want first to do some smaller break-in fires to cure the paint before filling it up and letting it rip.

 

[msal]

The Madison is a new stove and quite different from the 13NC. It is larger (2.4 cu ft), more efficient and requires ember protection only for the hearth. It also has a new air control that allows one to preset it for a low burn.

In your climate zone the 30NC should not be too much stove. You control the amount of wood loaded and burning. Run smaller loads of lower heat wood in fall and spring and burn full loads of your best hardwood in the winter.

FWIW, we were told by the local PE dealer that our stove was too big for the house and climate. He wouldn't sell it to us. I ended up buying from a great shop 90 miles north of us and have not regretted getting the larger stove for a minute. The Madison would probably heat your place fine, so will the 30NC. One will be idling a bit more in milder weather but it will have more reserve capacity when pushed during very cold weather.

Ah, ok. I am planning on checking out a local stove shop this weekend to compare prices. I stopped by my local HD to take a look at a 30nc today and they didn't have any on hand (no stoves on display either). They were claiming that they had 2 on stock in their systems though. There's another HD nearby so I'm not too concerned, plus they can ship to store for free. I'm hoping the stove shop has a lot on hand for me to look at! The madison sounds like it might be a good size, definitely interested.

Do you know how much oil (in gl) you used last winter in January and/or February? With that info we can calculate your heating load and size the stove based on that.

I was emailed receipts but apparently they didn't include the price per gallon. Figures, I threw out the paper receipt since I had the emails which I never thought to look at. Here's the breakdown:

12/02/14 - $286.44 -- 95 gallons
01/05/15 - $330.80 -- 110 gallons
02/10/15 - $377.47 -- 125 gallons
03/18/15 - $452.70 -- 150 gallons

The gallons are assuming I paid $3/gallon. It looks to me like we were using somewhere around 125 gallons/month during the coldest months. I've got about a million questions about R-value and hearths, but I don't think it's fair for me to ask them until I do a little more research on my end about it! It sounds like ember protection will be a lot easier/cheaper than an R value of 1.5 though.

 

[Grisu]

Thanks. The price per gallon is not needed. Let's say you used 125 gl of oil per month. At 140,000 BTU per gallon that is 17.5 mill. BTU per month. Assuming your boiler/furnace is ~80% efficient you had an effective 14 mBTU per month for heat. Roughly half million then per day. A cu ft of mixed hardwood burned in a ~66% efficient stove gives you about 100,000 effective BTU. With other words, you would need to burn ~5 cu ft of wood in your stove per day to offset your oil usage. When you get one with a 2.5 cu ft firebox that would be roughly two loads per day which would still leave you with the option of adding one or two more loads when needed. (Of course, that only works when someone is at home and can fill up the stove again.) IMHO, unless you want to have it substantially warmer with your stove and/or want to make sure you will never turn the oil burner on, the Madison should be enough. Don't forget also that the last winter was really cold.

For the hearth, this link may be helpful: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/hearth_design

 

[begreen]

Ah, ok. I am planning on checking out a local stove shop this weekend to compare prices. I stopped by my local HD to take a look at a 30nc today and they didn't have any on hand (no stoves on display either). They were claiming that they had 2 on stock in their systems though. There's another HD nearby so I'm not too concerned, plus they can ship to store for free. I'm hoping the stove shop has a lot on hand for me to look at! The madison sounds like it might be a good size, definitely interested.

If you can, bring a couple 16-18" splits with you. Try loading them N/S and E/W. I think you will find the 30NC has the more flexible firebox for loading. FYI, they probably won't have a Madison in stock.

 

[BrotherBart]

The big square firebox in the 30-NC is a delight for loading. 18" splits are optimal to leave air space on the sides for E/W. But the sucker is a N/W burning dream with 18" or 19" splits.

 

[msal]

Thanks. The price per gallon is not needed. Let's say you used 125 gl of oil per month. At 140,000 BTU per gallon that is 17.5 mill. BTU per month. Assuming your boiler/furnace is ~80% efficient you had an effective 14 mBTU per month for heat. Roughly half million then per day. A cu ft of mixed hardwood burned in a ~66% efficient stove gives you about 100,000 effective BTU. With other words, you would need to burn ~5 cu ft of wood in your stove per day to offset your oil usage. When you get one with a 2.5 cu ft firebox that would be roughly two loads per day which would still leave you with the option of adding one or two more loads when needed. (Of course, that only works when someone is at home and can fill up the stove again.) IMHO, unless you want to have it substantially warmer with your stove and/or want to make sure you will never turn the oil burner on, the Madison should be enough. Don't forget also that the last winter was really cold.

For the hearth, this link may be helpful: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/hearth_design

Thanks for the calculations!! I was able to get my history from the oil company. Looks like my average is much closer to 150 gallons per month. Using your calculations, that puts me at 21 mil BTU per month, and with 80% efficiency at 16.8 mBTU/month for heat, 560 kBTU/day. Since some of that heat goes to hot water (I forgot to mention that I have an indirect fired hot water tank), I think your estimate of ~5 cu ft of wood a day is probably still accurate.

We are total homebodies. I work from home 4/5 days a week and my wife is a stay-at-home mom (we have two little girls). We are always home! It sounds to me like at minimum, I will want a 2.5 cu ft firebox to be able to keep my boiler from kicking on (at least for heat demand). I have no problem tending to the fire several times a day if necessary, and my wife is also comfortable with it (she grew up with a wood stove as an almost primary heat source). I'm still learning about hearth differences, so I'm in the process of understanding what I will need if I go Madison vs. 30nc. I'm handy enough with carpentry so building a hearth shouldn't be a big deal, the hard part for me is figuring out what materials to use, and what measurements to use to get the necessary R value, etc.

If you can, bring a couple 16-18" splits with you. Try loading them N/S and E/W. I think you will find the 30NC has the more flexible firebox for loading. FYI, they probably won't have a Madison in stock.

Can I load either E/W or N/S with both the madison and the 30nc?

I am going to call the insurance company shortly. I have a bad feeling about it... I am hoping they don't require professional installation. I plan on going to Woodman's stove shop tomorrow to look at stoves, I think I have a better grasp on what to look for now.

 

[msal]

Phew, I thought for sure when I originally set up the insurance that if I were to ever get a stove they would require professional installation. I just called, no professional installation or inspection required. My rate did go up ~$6/month, but I can deal with that!

 

[begreen]

Good news on the insurance. Yes, both can load E/W or N/S. The 30NC has a flat firebox floor. The Madison is a little unusual. There is 4"? wide a firebrick ledge in front that is about an inch higher than the back flat floor. Not sure how this affects the fire. It may actually help by allowing air to get under the fire. Can't say as I've never burned in one.

 

[msal]

So I was basing my square footage on memory, and what the house was originally listed at. I decided to get outside and measure to be sure. It turns out my house is only ~1350 square feet (28'x48', 4")! I was almost sold on the 30nc, especially because I might be able to snag one for $650 (and maybe even less if I can haggle with a Lowe's movers coupon!). Now I'm worried again about heating us out of the house . At the same rate, having the ability to overnight burn is still of high importance to us.

Can anyone confirm whether or not the Englander Madison has a legs option? I thought I read somewhere that it does not. That stove does seem to be better sized, but my wife and I really don't like the look of the pedestal and this stove will be a centerpiece in our living room at this point. I hate to base my decision on looks, so we are weighing our options. Also hard to pay more for a smaller stove (vs. the deal on the 30nc!).

I'm heading down to the local stove shop in a few minutes. They're a Jotul dealer (among others), so I'll be taking a long look at those (especially because of the potential $300 trade in, and the really nice looks). I can't seem to find the firebox size for the Jotul f45, any info on it? I'm sure I can find out while I'm there. Do you guys think I could get an overnight burn out of the Jotul f45?

Thanks again everyone!

 

[begreen]

It will depend on how well insulated the house is. Ranches are a bit hard to heat uniformly due to their typical layout. The main area gets good heat but the bedrooms at the end of the hallway do not. This can be remedied with a fan system. The 30NC may be a bit of overkill without some circulation assistance. This is a very common topic in the fall. Search for move heat. If the 30NC is the goal there still is the heating from the basement option if the basement is insulated. I'm not a strong proponent for this type of heating, but a lot of folks do it and are satisfied.

A good stove for the main floor would be the 2 cu ft Pacific Energy Super 27 or the Spectrum Classic which has legs, close clearances and is based on the Super 27 firebox and air control system which has very good burn times for a non-catalytic stove. It's a good looker, however, it will cost more. A much simpler version, but still around 2 cu ft is the PE True North TN19. Alternatives would be to go to a catalytic stove like a Woodstock Fireview, Blaze King Sirocco, etc., but they will cost more.

 

[msal]

It will depend on how well insulated the house is. Ranches are a bit hard to heat uniformly due to their typical layout. The main area gets good heat but the bedrooms at the end of the hallway do not. This can be remedied with a fan system. The 30NC may be a bit of overkill without some circulation assistance. This is a very common topic in the fall. Search for move heat. If the 30NC is the goal there still is the heating from the basement option if the basement is insulated. I'm not a strong proponent for this type of heating, but a lot of folks do it and are satisfied.

A good stove for the main floor would be the 2 cu ft Pacific Energy Super 27 or the Spectrum Classic which has legs, close clearances and is based on the Super 27 firebox and air control system which has very good burn times for a non-catalytic stove. It's a good looker, however, it will cost more. A much simpler version, but still around 2 cu ft is the PE True North TN19. Alternatives would be to go to a catalytic stove like a Woodstock Fireview, Blaze King Sirocco, etc., but they will cost more.

We are definitely leaning main floor, I think the basement option is out. Our ranch is set up non-standard. The main living area is open concept, connects to the dining area and kitchen. The entire middle section (and back corner) are all part of this open concept area. Then there is one bedroom on one end/corner, and 2 bedrooms and a bathroom down a short hallway down the other side. I think typically the bedroom and living room are swapped and all bedrooms are down one side of the house. I think this works in my favor though, since there is less hallway and the stove will be more centrally located!

I've compared the Super 27 with the Jotul f45 and I prefer the f45. It has a slightly larger firebox, and it looks like I can get one cheaper than the Super 27 with their trade in offer (I can trade my small federal airtight in the garage and get $200 back). However, this still puts me up at $1650 without a blower (blower is $330 extra). This is double what an Englander would cost me so it's hard to justify (Englander throws in the blower as well).

Despite the not so beautiful pedestal (I wish they had a leg option, pretty sure they don't though), we are considering the Madison right now. I called HD, and tried to get a price out of them - they had no idea how to go about ordering one. This doesn't surprise me since the Madison seems like an urban legend at this point! Besides that, we are still considering the Jotul f45 and the 30nc. Liking the idea of only needing ember protection and the 30nc may be too hot. Not liking the price on the Jotul still.

I seem to be fixated on getting a 2+cu ft firebox so I can sustain overnight burns. I feel like 2.2-2.8 is the sweet spot for me. Maybe this isn't wise, and I can just go with something like the 13nc? Sorry guys, I'm being super indecisive and I realize that no one can choose for me haha.

My big questions right now:

1. Can anyone confirm or deny whether or not the Madison has a leg option?
2. Where the heck can you buy the Madison? I only see AM FM online, which to me looks like refurbs.
3. Does anyone know why Madisons aren't readily available yet? I'm reading 18 month old posts about how it will be hitting stores soon.
4. Can I hit overnight burns with the 2.2 cu ft Jotul f45?

I'm going to keep looking around for stoves around my target size.

Thanks guys.

 

[begreen]

I seem to be fixated on getting a 2+cu ft firebox so I can sustain overnight burns. I feel like 2.2-2.8 is the sweet spot for me. Maybe this isn't wise, and I can just go with something like the 13nc? Sorry guys, I'm being super indecisive and I realize that no one can choose for me haha.

Did you price out a the PE True North TN19? It should sell at around $800.

 

[Grisu]

I took a look at the Madison's manual but could not find any mentioning of legs in there. (broken link removed to http://www.heatredefined.com/assets/images/general/15-SSW01.pdf) You may need to live with the pedestal. You can start a conversation with stoveguy2esw who works at Englander to get more info also about its availability etc.

A 2.2 cu ft stove should give you overnight burns. Maybe do a forum search for a member who has a F45 and ask him directly.

If you really want a (budget) stove with legs take a look at Timberwolf stoves which come with a leg option. Unfortunately, they don't have one in the ~2.5 cu ft range so you may need to go bigger there, too. Another affordable stove with a good firebox size would be the Heatilator Ecochoice WS22 but I am not sure if that comes with optional legs.

 

[begreen]

IIRC the Madison's base is a pedestal to accommodate the integral ash collection system.

 

[msal]

Hey guys, I searched around and couldn't find a definite answer on this. We were originally planning to install the stove in the corner of our living room (not kiddie cornered, alongside the inner wall), right near the peak. The living room goes from the center-wall of the house to the outer edge of the house. I know I have read that you want to be close to the peak so you don't have to extend too high outdoors, and to keep things like ice dams from forming (can be very problematic around here). Instead of installing on the inner side, would I be asking for trouble if I installed the stove halfway down along that same wall? This would put the chimney ~1/2 up the roof instead of right near the peak.

We thought about re-working how our living room is set up and having the stove right in the center of the wall may work out better for us. Plus, we don't have to worry so much about clearances. We were trying to factor in getting a stove as tight into the corner as possible to still allow for enough space, etc. Having space on both sides seems like a possibly better option for us. This has limited our choices somewhat, and we don't want to protect the wall if we don't have to. I can provide a picture/drawing if my description didn't make sense... .

If we stick with the corner install, we are pretty close to pulling the trigger on a Jotul f45. The f45 seems to have the best clearances when placing the stove alongside a wall. If in the center, we may still go with the f45 but have some other contenders. Let me know what you guys think! Thanks again, I know this thread is all over the place!

 

[begreen]

It may work out ok at that location. Our chimney by necessity of stove location is in the lower half of the roof. It's straight up 20 ft and draws well even in windy weather. The chimney performance can also be affected by topography so you might want to consider the prevailing winter wind patterns. Stoves in a neutral or negative pressure zone can be more susceptible to problems with less ideal chimney locations.
http://www.woodheat.org/wind-chimney.html

 

[msal]

Well, I think we've made up our indecisive minds finally. We are going with the corner installation (right in the center of the house, near the peak) in the living room (1st floor). We are hoping to pick up a Jotul f45 in the next week or two from the local dealer. It's listed at $1850, and I have the small Federal Airtight out in the garage to trade in which gets me down to $1550. I've already mapped out where it will go with some tape regarding clearances, etc. We are probably going to add some wall protection to get in a little tighter to the wall. I'm going to run without the blower for now, since it's an additional $300+. I have ceiling fans in almost every room so I'm thinking that will help distribute the heat just fine.

Regarding wood - my neighbor has offered to give me a hand with cleaning up my trails and bringing up wood from out back, in exchange for some pine that he can burn in his outdoor furnace. He can't do much of the physical labor due to age but can operate his tractor just fine! Hoping to get as much wood as possible stacked in the next couple of months. He has plenty of seasoned wood stacked and has also offered to trade some seasoned wood for green wood to get me going this year, if I need it.

I will post again when I have an update, maybe add some pictures . Thanks again everyone, the input I've received here has been very helpful so far.