Installing my first wood burning stove

[terryit3]

and I need advice.

At the guidance of many websites and posts I've found on this site, we have decided to purchase the Englander 30-NCH wood stove for our house. It's a 1900 square foot ranch home design, with a 400 square foot living room. I wouldn't call it an open floor plan, the the 400 square foot kitchen area in attached to the living room through two large 6-foot openings.

Anyway, from what I have read, the Englander has a 20" clearance requirement. I have a 4' x 4' area in one of the corners that the stove will be placed in. I was hoping that screwing cement board to the floor and wall surrounds and laying slate tile would be good enough to shield the walls safely. I can accommodate any clearance issues with the front of the stove, but I was concerned that the sidesand/or back of the stove would be too close to my walls (which are wood studs and sheetrock).

I've already started on this, so hopefully we can safely install it so I can proceed with laying the tile tonight.

Thanks for any help

 

[begreen]

Welcome Terry. I'm glad you checked in before proceeding. You need to read the manual WRT clearances and hearth requirements for this stove. The 30-NC needs good hearth insulation. A single layer of backerboard is totally insufficient. You will need many layers depending on the brand of cement board used.

What is the goal here? What will be your corner clearances for the stove to the walls? What brand backerboard are you using?

From the manual:
The (hearth) protection must have an R-value of 1.5 (English units) or equivalent (See “Installation on a Combustible Floor”). This stove requires a minimum 39.0” x 52.5” floor protection.
If Durock NexGen cement board is used then that would require 4 thicknesses (2") to meet this requirement. Also note that in order to reduce clearances on the wall there must be a proper 1" air gap behind the backerboard on the walls and it must be at least 1" above the hearth floor and open at the top. The intent is to allow air to freely convect behind the NFPA 211 approved wall-shielding to keep the wall behind the shield cool.

 

[terryit3]

Unfortunately, I added some construction adhesive behind the cement board on the wall panels. If I remove it, it's going to tear up my sheetrock. I doubt it will be seen, but I'd rather not tear it off if I don't have to.

Where my project is now, what would be the most cost-effective way to get my insulation requirements moving forward?

 

[begreen]

What brand backerboard is being currently used? Different brands have different insulation values. What will be your corner clearances from the stove to the wall maintaining at least 16" hearth in front of the stove? Does your stove have the side heat shields?

Just penciling in some numbers and it looks like the area and hearth are too small for this stove for a 45 degree corner install. The closest corner clearance is 12". However, it may fit if installed parallel to the wall. That reduces with shielding the rear clearance to 5" and side clearance to 12". Is that OK? If so you would need to extend the hearth to be at least 52" in the front dimension.

 

[Grisu]

Your walls are not really the problem. You can install the 30NC far enough away from them that all the clearance requirements are met. Englander also offers optional heat shields that can be used to reduce the clearances in the manual. Are you using double-wall pipe for the chimney?

Your real problem is the floor. There you need a r-value of at least 1.5. Here is a handy list of common hearth materials and their r-values: (broken link removed)

 

[terryit3]

It's Hardie Backer. Picked up from Lowe's this weekend: http://www.lowes.com/pd_11640-34299...&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=hardy+backer&facetInfo=

If I stick the stove into the 4' square with the door facing out to the right, I could get 17" of clearance behind and 12" on the right ide (which would be by the wall).

 

[begreen]

I don't have a stove to measure by and Englander's website/manual is poor on actual drawings showing critical dimensions. The stove is listed as 31" deep on Englander's website. 48" minus 31" = 17" of freeplay to be divided between front and back. Front needs 16" from the door and the lowest one can achieve at back with shielding is 5". The front 16" is measured from the door glass, so this could be close. What do you measure from the back of the stove to the door glass?

Hardibacker has an R value of .26, Durock NexGen is R=.39. To achieve the R=1.5 hearth you need 4 sheets of Durock or 6 sheets of hardibacker. The wall shield has very specific requirements. The only way to reduce rear clearances to 5" and side to 12" is to build NFPA 211 protected wallshields. A thin tile veneer on cement board directly attached to the drywall is not a proper, ventilated wall shield. The cement board must be attached on 1" spacers, and open at least 1" on the bottom and the top to allow air to freely convect behind the wall shield. That keeps the walls cool. To make the wall shield use 1/2" Durock NexGen. It will be nice and rigid. One inch ceramic spacers are made for this purpose, but you can make them out of any non-combustible material like 1" sections of 3/8" copper pipe or 1" thick metal studding, etc.. Another trick is to snap off 60" x 3" strips of 1/2" Durock and double them up as firring strip spacers on each stud.

Visit the article for more info on proper NFPA 211 wall shields.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/stove_wall_clear

 

[terryit3]

I missed the second half of your last message begreen. Thanks for your advice so far.

Just to make sure I am understanding all of this R value stuff, I need a combined R-value of at least 1.5 between the wood floors and the stove? I could get this by adding more cement board of the 1/2" variety instead of the 1/4" Hardie backer that I currently have down? If I meet the clearance on the walls, would the backer and slate tile provide adequate insulation?

 

[begreen]

Another option might be to return the stove and get another that has tighter clearances and ember protection only hearth requirements.

 

[terryit3]

Are you using double-wall pipe for the chimney?

I haven't purchased the stove or pipe yet. This will probably be a different post
I have cathedral ceilings in my house, and was planning on just running standard black pipe up to the ceiling, then insulated pipe through the attic and outside.

 

[terryit3]

Another option might be to return the stove and get another that has tighter clearances and ember protection only hearth requirements.

I haven't purchased the stove yet. Is there a stove available for under $1000 that can heat 1900 square feet that can be installed on a 4x4' pad?

 

[begreen]

We're cross posting. Correct on the hearth insulation. As for the walls, in 48" based on Englander supplied dimensions, there is not the minimum hearth distance.

 

[begreen]

A Pacific Energy TN19 has an ember protection only hearth requirement and looks like it would just fit there if double-wall stove pipe is used to connect it to the chimney. This is advisable anyway for a stove pipe run of over 8ft. Caveat being this is a 2 cu ft stove. It will heat the house ok, but you may need to supplement with the central heat when temps are very cold and/or refill the stove more frequently. If you want to stay with a 3 cu ft stove the Drolet HT2000 might work. I haven't run all the numbers, but it also requires just an ember protection hearth, no added insulation required.

 

[check212]

I haven't purchased the stove yet. Is there a stove available for under $1000 that can heat 1900 square feet that can be installed on a 4x4' pad?

Drolet HT2000 for $899 from Northern Tool. Read nothing but good things about it.

 

[begreen]

Checked the HT2000 specs. It is 26" deep from back to door. It needs 16" in front which totals 42". That allows 6" behind it. Not enough unless an NFPA 211 wall shield was behind it and it would absolutely require using a double-wall connector to the chimney support. If considering this stove as an alternative, download the manual. It goes into detail on wall shielding requirements, allowances and construction.
(broken link removed to http://www.drolet.ca/en/products/wood/ht2000-with-pedestal)

 

[Grisu]

Check out the new Englander Madison: http://www.englanderstoves.com/manuals/15-SSW01.pdf I think you can just fit it on a 48" x 48" hearth and still comply with all side and rear clearances. The hearth only needs to have ember protection so your tiles would be ok. With a firebox of 2.4 cu ft it may just be big enough for your home.

 

[terryit3]

Thanks @Grisu - I'll consider this stove. The difference in price between it and the 30-NCH would help offset the additional cost of the double stove pipe I would have to buy. Looks like I will be tearing some cement board down and adding spacers tonight.

 

[terryit3]

So.. the Englander Madison stove listed above requires a R-Value of 2 when installing it on a combustible floor surface, which I will. I have Hickory floors throughout the house..

How can I get my R Value met without sticking 5 layers of 1/2" Durock NexGen cement board down?

Sorry for all the dumb questions.. you guys must be shaking your heads

 

[begreen]

Thanks @Grisu - I'll consider this stove. The difference in price between it and the 30-NCH would help offset the additional cost of the double stove pipe I would have to buy. Looks like I will be tearing some cement board down and adding spacers tonight.

No need to tear out the cement board. You can build up right on top of it.

 

[Grisu]

So.. the Englander Madison stove listed above requires a R-Value of 2 when installing it on a combustible floor surface, which I will. I have Hickory floors throughout the house..

How can I get my R Value met without sticking 5 layers of 1/2" Durock NexGen cement board down?

Sorry for all the dumb questions.. you guys must be shaking your heads

You are probably looking at the 13NC not the Madison. That's the reason I had the link to the manual in my post. See that on page 16 top; only ember protection (= non-combustible surface) is required. You won't find the Madison at HomeDepot or similar yet but you should be able to place a special order for it there. I think cost is the same as for the 30NC.

 

[begreen]

The Madison is a new stove and .5cu ft smaller than the 30NC. It needs an ember protection only hearth. If for peace of mind you wanted to add a layer of 1/2" Durock before setting the tiles, no harm done and a bit more protection.

• The spark and ember floor protector should be UL approved or equivalent (ULC if Canada) and must be noncombustible. Since the majority of the heat from this unit is radiant, the floor protector only serves to keep ashes and sparks from landing on combustible flooring near the unit. A hearth rug is NOT an approved substitute for a proper hearth pad. No R Value is necessary.
  

 

[terryit3]

You are probably looking at the 13NC not the Madison.

You are exactly right. I was looking at the 13-NCH. Besides the manual you posted, I can't fine any information on this stove! I'm going to call Home Depot and a local stove place and try to see about ordering one.

 

[terryit3]

The Madison is a new stove and .5cu ft smaller than the 30NC. It needs an ember protection only hearth. If for peace of mind you wanted to add a layer of 1/2" Durock before setting the tiles, no harm done and a bit more protection.

Ember protection only hearth means I do not have to add spacers to the walls with this stove?

 

[Grisu]

It's a new stove, just came out a few months ago. That's the reason most Englander retailers are not stocking it and it needs to be special ordered. Here are some threads with more info:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/madison-in-my-burn-trailer.128150/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/where-to-buy-madison.133806/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-madison.132173/

I think your best best bet would be to find an Englander retailer in your area and have them order it for you: https://www.englanderstoves.com/Dealers/locate.html

Ember protection only hearth means I do not have to add spacers to the walls with this stove?

The hearth is the floor protection. That does not need a r-value (or air space) for the Madison. Simply, a non-combustible surface will suffice and it must extend 8" on each side of the stove and at least 16" in front from the door. Take a close look at the manual.

For the walls you need to observe the side clearance to make sure the radiant heat of the stove does not create a fire hazard. With side shields you need 17.5" to the wall and the stove is 22.5" wide for 40". Add another 8" hearth protection on the other side and you have 48" or 4 ft of hearth. Exactly what you have but it will be a very tight fit. To the rear you need 7.5" clearance, the stove is ~23" to the door deep, and 16" front hearth. Comes up to ~47". Again, just what you have. However, you will need to make some very precise measurements when installing.

 

[terryit3]

Thanks for your help @Grisu - I appreciate it.