Insulated shutters

[wg_bent]

In thinking about energy loss and having used Insulpink in my basement, makes me think that homes should be built with insulating shutters. Especially where there are large glass panes like patio sliders. If bifold "doors" or shutters that were insulated, even with r10 rigid foam insualtion that could be shut at night in cold weather, that would really cut down on a pretty nasty heat loss.

I've seen something like this advertised, but they're VERY expensive. Economy is expensive! I'm sort of thinking of building something like this and include decorative or at least finished sort of surface that I could press into place on cold evenings. Maybe laminate the inside with a reflective surface, and put a lite board like Luan on the outside and paint it to match the house. Would store it in summer. A minor hassle maybe but a huge gain in reducing heat loss.

 

[velvetfoot]

Don't those pesky building codes want you to cover the foam with some kind of fire resistant material, like 1/2" gypsum board?

We got these cellular window shades by Comfortex. Supposedly has some insulation effect.

(broken link removed to http://www.comfortex.com/cellular/symphony/symphony.cfm)

 

[precaud]

Last winter I made window insulators out of 2" polystyrene board (R8) and covered the windows in two rooms at sundown. Made a HUGE difference. It became very clear that the windows, even double-pane ones, are the greatest source of heat loss in the home. So I think insulated shutters are a great idea.

 

[wg_bent]

Don't those pesky building codes want you to cover the foam with some kind of fire resistant material, like 1/2" gypsum board?

We got these cellular window shades by Comfortex. Supposedly has some insulation effect.

(broken link removed to http://www.comfortex.com/cellular/symphony/symphony.cfm)

on the building code point. Yup. Do you mean on the shudders? Hmm. a good point. Not sure if it's a removable item.

If you mean in my basement... again....Yup. My plan for my basement is to do foam board, then 2x4 wall with fiberglass non-faced bats, covered with sheetrock. Should total about r25 when done (including the cement block). Will be better than the rest of the house!

 

[velvetfoot]

I meant the luan cover on the shutters. It seems pretty thin. I personally like your basement wall system. Will the wall board be paperless(my memory fails me here - how the heck would you paint that)? Will there be a high perm paint on the wall? Will the foam be <2"? I think I remember that's what BuildingSciences recommends so that the insulation can dry out.

 

[Eric Johnson]

A more practical approach for the glass sliding doors might be insulated curtains. Nice for privacy, too.

 

[wg_bent]

I meant the luan cover on the shutters. It seems pretty thin. I personally like your basement wall system. Will the wall board be paperless(my memory fails me here - how the heck would you paint that)? Will there be a high perm paint on the wall? Will the foam be <2"? I think I remember that's what BuildingSciences recommends so that the insulation can dry out.

My plan is just to use standard wallboard for now, just keep it from touching the cement below. Actually the cement is quite dry now that I sealed the wall/floor boundry with a quick set hydrolic cement then painted the wall and first 6" of floor with drylock paint. I've seen the paperless wall board advertised. Interesting, but I'd have to travel quite a way to get it. (I have wondered about green board that's used in bathrooms where high moisture is present. The foam board is the pink Insulpink stuff from Owens corning. It's a closed cell polystyrene, so it won't absorb any water (vs the foil faced dow stuff that can wick water)

I haven't really thought the shutter thing through much...just my mind going a bit.

Eric...Convenient? What's that? %-P This whole wood heat thing is NOT convenient, so if the temp drops below 0 It would not be much of a problem to push a couple boards in front of the sliding glass door. I'm thinking a real simple solution that would be large gain in lost heat.

 

[elkimmeg]

Are you insulating the windows to keep the cold out or heat in?. I outlined how to insulate windows with curtains as Eric suggested.

I think the post were in my own home description. It's not a guess that it worked but 30 years of living proof.
Four keys for sucess were valance board on top tight to the ceiling to direct room heat circulation in front of the sliders
Second Rock wool curtians insulated liner. Third draft stopping tubes placed at tyhe bottom of the certain. Finally #4
timing After a day of solar gain. Time to close those curtains to prevent loosing all that solar gain In tyhe winter its the first thing Ellen or I do when we enter the home after work. As the days get longer We close the curtaINS LATER. JUST LIKE YOUR WOOD STOVE,WE LEARNED THE CHARACTERISTICS OF OUR HOME AND IT'S ORIENTATION TO THE SUN sorry hit caps key

 

[HarryBack]

used to be, certain window companies voided their warrantees if insualted curtains were used...something about heat buildup causing the glazing to fail.....Andersen used to do this....dont know about now tho....

 

[elkimmeg]

This may be true but I did not suggest trapping in heat with curtains only allowing it to pass threw when the conditions present themselves

 

[PAJerry]

We've used the heat-shrink clear plastic on our windows for years, even though they are all triple pane and I have old wood frame storm windows on the smaller ones. That stuff makes a huge difference and is crystal clear. We usually pick up a couple packs at the end of the heating season when you can get it at half price. Very easy to install.

 

[HarryBack]

This may be true but I did not suggest trapping in heat with curtains only allowing it to pass threw when the conditions present themselves

What Andersen tells me is it is when the curtains are closed, heat builds in the space between the curtains and the glass, causing the glazing compound they use to reliquefy and thats when they see seal failures. I guess Id only see this happening when its hot out and someones got the curtains closed in an attempt to cool the home. Ive never seen this happen, just got wind of it at a seminar. Kinda like you are only supposed to use Latex paint on steel doors, because alkyd paints used to react with the primer on the door and cause peeling.

 

[elkimmeg]

I have seen full view storm doors ruin the nicest wood exterior doors even warp steel doors from the trapped in heat.
People do not realize the amount and how hot dead sun exposure, can trap heat beteen them

 

[HarryBack]

yeah, Elk....all too true!
We had a guy buy a very expensive fiberglass unit.....was something like $4k......threw on a fullview storm door, even though the tag on the door said not to, (he didnt read it). We got called back like 8 months later.....the glazing compound totally liquefied and ran right down the door.....the glass was flopping in the opening! He about tore our heads off when we got there! you know they type......"im gonna sue....im gonna own you! etc......heck, this guy was so anile, he had his case all prepared....original invoice, all tags and literature from the door, etc. Good thing too, because it made it easy to point out on the tag which was affixed to the door, that by adding a storm door, he'd void the warrantee. Also, said that in the literature as well. He wasnt very gracious, even when proven wrong. ;-P

 

[elkimmeg]

As an inspector most of the problems I find ,are with installations where the instructions are not read.
Why is it that I'm the only one to read the manuals? One such incident the gas hot water heater is vented in the wall of a stairway to the stoop for the side door exit. Printed clearly way 7' from walkways. So I ask the plumber if he read it he tells me he has never had a problem before and that was the easiest place to locate it. I have them vented directly under windows when there are 2 full pages of location descriptions. One did not have to read to figure out it was wrong. I come to two conclusions one most installers can't read or they never take the time to read how in install the appliance they are installing. This also happens with wood stove/ pellet stove installations.

 

[Eric Johnson]

Nothing like an irrational, pissed off customer who's been stewing in his own juices for a couple of days to really make your day as a retailer.

Good point Harry. Most people would close the curtains at night and open them up during the day, but I can see why they would void a window/door warranty. Maybe somebody should design insulated curtains with pex tubing installed as a heating system or DHW assist.

 

[elkimmeg]

Eric I did this originally a 4/6 tile area was in front of my south facing sliders. I looped 3/8 copper under the dark tile and cement board then channeled it to a collection tank My passive solar hotwater system. It actually worked the cheapest solution one could think of no worry of freezing so I could use portable water. Problem being as the childern required their own bedrooms this room became ours / wife and me/. She did not like the look of tile in the bedroom I ended up ripping it up for oak flooring which a couple years later got covered with rug Rug is gone now oak exposure returned. At night we were able to heat that room by re-circulating the previous heated water from the day time sun. so essentually my solar collectors were tile and cement board 4/6 mounted inside the home

 

[HarryBack]

alot of merit in the PEX tubing idea actually....think of the surface area of those curtains....hot water anyone?

 

[velvetfoot]

Thanks for the interesting info about the storm doors. Never realized it.

 

[precaud]

Was just at the public library, and found a whole book on the subject of shutters, called "Movable Insulation" by William K. Langdon. 380 pages of great ideas for insulating windows. Very cool!

According to his research, R5 is the sweet spot (cost vs benefit), and anything above R8 is a waste.

 

[Rhone]

Windows do lose a lot of heat. My house, has R2 windows and by simply purchasing those plastic stretch window kits at the store for probably $20 for all my windows, and increasing them by R1 it will save me $113.89 in oil & electricity/year or $48.34 in wood. Well worth the initial $20 investment if your windows can take the tape and won't be damaged.

It's difficult and usually the products VERY expensive to insulate windows. As pointed out you have to think about damage. It's one thing, to keep them covered 24x7 it's another if you periodically open/close them. Closing insulating curtains in the winter at night, the glass can cool to 20 degrees, and when you open them up in morning you now have 70 degree house air brushing against 20 degree windows and condensation will form which can drip and damage your window or frames. They should be air tight, else you won't get the benefit of the extra insulation of dead air space.

I've seen someone with their own insulating blinds, they're extremely similar to roman blinds. They were made of the same material as those car windshield sun screens, you know the foil bubble insulation shields some people put in their windshield in summer? This individual may have purchased many of the car ones and created them from that because the car ones are made to fold into a small rectangle like theirs did where the rolls of the stuff don't have the folds in them. They kept it shiny on the outside, and covered the inside with a cloth that matched the interior. To have it air tight, they attached magnet strips the entire lengths of the frame of the window and put I think metal strips on the sides of the curtains, they may have been magnet. You pull it down, and the sides suck tight to the magnets. For the bottom, they used a solid, small metal rod and depend on its weight to keep the bottom closed off. Probably something like R3 including the dead air space in the end. The windows of their house is wood and now has water damage from them opening these blinds up the mornings of winter and condensation drips afterward. Better if you have vinyl windows. They purchased some of the honeycomb insulating blinds for some of their windows and didn't feel they worked as well as their own home made design. The honeycombs didn't fit as tight, got dirty too fast, and proved difficult to clean and don't hold up as long.

Making that and applying it to each of my windows would save me around $13/year in oil & electricity each window or $6/year for wood/electricity each window.