Insulation for used wood fireplace

[nspasic]

Hi
I have a wood stove that I got used that was insulated and I am looking for insulation that is non toxic that I can use in my stove. In all my research I have found none except hemp, however I have never seen it used in wood stoves for insulation for inside a wood stove. Any recommendations? Any type of insulation that is non toxic or perhaps green certified?
The most common on the market seems to be ceramic fiber and before that was asbestos, however each has toxic risks to both of them. In my wood stove there is insulation between the lid and the metal part of the stove as well as the inner sides. I approached this problem when I installed the wood stove and saw that it was smoking from the inlay (outside) of the pipe, it would appear that the insulation was burning. The chimney pipe was not sealed so we will be doing that (as before there was soot and burnt ash all around the pipe) and because of that we will be replacing with new insulation because we took insulation the burnt/smoked insulation out. We wire brushed it and sand papered around the pipe and inside the border to prepare to caulk it with speacial caulk around the pipe so it is not just a good fit , but so that nothing seeps out.

 

[begreen]

Ceramic wool is what is typically used, definitely not hemp. What is this fireplace's make and model? There are some red flags with this installation but without the manual the scope is undetermined.

It looks like the stove pipe may be installed upside down. If this is single-wall stovepipe, the crimped end should point down, toward the stove.

How was the pipe passed through the wall? Do you have a before picture? What is it connected to on the other side of the wall? How tall is the chimney? Pictures welcomed.

 

[GrumpyDad]

Ceramic wool is what is typically used, definitely not hemp. What is this fireplace's make and model? There are some red flags with this installation but without the manual the scope is undetermined.

It looks like the stove pipe may be installed upside down. If this is single-wall stovepipe, the crimped end should point down, toward the stove.

How was the pipe passed through the wall? Do you have a before picture? What is it connected to on the other side of the wall? How tall is the chimney? Pictures welcomed.

The back of the stove looks way way way way way way way waaaay too close to the wall.

 

[GrumpyDad]

Hi
I have a wood stove that I got used that was insulated and I am looking for insulation that is non toxic that I can use in my stove. In all my research I have found none except hemp, however I have never seen it used in wood stoves for insulation for inside a wood stove. Any recommendations? Any type of insulation that is non toxic or perhaps green certified?
The most common on the market seems to be ceramic fiber and before that was asbestos, however each has toxic risks to both of them. In my wood stove there is insulation between the lid and the metal part of the stove as well as the inner sides. I approached this problem when I installed the wood stove and saw that it was smoking from the inlay (outside) of the pipe, it would appear that the insulation was burning. The chimney pipe was not sealed so we will be doing that (as before there was soot and burnt ash all around the pipe) and because of that we will be replacing with new insulation because we took insulation the burnt/smoked insulation out. We wire brushed it and sand papered around the pipe and inside the border to prepare to caulk it with speacial caulk around the pipe so it is not just a good fit , but so that nothing seeps out.
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Take my advice : Provide everything the people in this forum ask you, like before/after pictures, information about the stove and stove pipe. Im fairly new at this and I see a few red flags that need to be addressed ASAP. In my opinion I would not burn in this stove until you can determine if this was installed correctly.

 

[begreen]

Yes, everything from the hearth on up looks wrong, but I want to verify with the manual.

 

[nspasic]

Ceramic wool is what is typically used, definitely not hemp. What is this fireplace's make and model? There are some red flags with this installation but without the manual the scope is undetermined.

It looks like the stove pipe may be installed upside down. If this is single-wall stovepipe, the crimped end should point down, toward the stove.

How was the pipe passed through the wall? Do you have a before picture? What is it connected to on the other side of the wall? How tall is the chimney? Pictures welcomed.

Ceramic wool is what is typically used, definitely not hemp. What is this fireplace's make and model? There are some red flags with this installation but without the manual the scope is undetermined.

It looks like the stove pipe may be installed upside down. If this is single-wall stovepipe, the crimped end should point down, toward the stove.

How was the pipe passed through the wall? Do you have a before picture? What is it connected to on the other side of the wall? How tall is the chimney? Pictures welcomed.

The cabin is about 45 minutes from my house so I need to go back up there and take more pictures and video. Here is the outside chimney on how we hooked it up. It does have a chimney stack on it, the plastic bag is obviously removed. I beleive it is about 5-6 feet high. I don't know what you mean by a single- wall stovepipe? There are 2 black metal pipe pieces that go together and 1 elbow piece to help it angle out the wall the way you see it and not through the metal roof. It's not all one piece (inside black pipe). There is no brand name that I can find on the stove unless I can't see it. This was a trade swap sort of deal when I got it as is. Everything seems structurally sound inside and outside. We have fired it up and it does heat well. I do remember seeing a the black metal being crimped on one side so I will try that suggestion you mentioned making sure that crimped side is point down. When we took of the lid there was caked on soot around the pipe and we did clean it as stated in my original post. I really ythink that was the issue and we will go back up there to try your suggestion and turn the pipe around so the crimped part is pointed down toward the stove. The insulation does look old as well and parts of it are burnt so I need to replace it. However wondering if I should replace it at all, rather then just take it out altogether and have no insulation there? The idea of putting more ceramic fibre is worrysome without a non toxic option. You will see the old burnt insulation from the issue we are having that sits on the top of the lid, which I will be taking out carefully. I will be back soon with more images post. Thankyou for your advice. I continue to listen

 

[nspasic]

Take my advice : Provide everything the people in this forum ask you, like before/after pictures, information about the stove and stove pipe. Im fairly new at this and I see a few red flags that need to be addressed ASAP. In my opinion I would not burn in this stove until you can determine if this was installed correctly.

Yup working on getting more pictures, have to go back up to the cabin. I did post a couple more in another response that I had. and yea right now gathering alot of information and carefully digesting it. This is my first time posting and already very useful.

 

[begreen]

Thanks, that helps. I can definitely say that the "chimney" is illegal and not safe at all. It is made of stovepipe which should never pass through a wall and definitely is not approved for outdoor chimneys. It is hot and much too close to the stud wall and exterior siding. This is a house fire waiting to happen.

I suspect that this fireplace has some very strict installation requirements. Setting it on cement board and then against the wall with more cement board separating it from the combustible studs is definitely not ok. But the product should be identified to get the correct installation requirements, especially if it is designed to fit inside of an existing masonry fireplace. Look around it closely for any labeling on the sides or back and perhaps in the door channel.

The insulation looks stained, but probably not burnt. Kaowool is stable up to around 2100º. I am not sure why the stove is smoking, but a guess would be a too short chimney with two 90º turns in it is not helping.

 

[nspasic]

The back of the stove looks way way way way way way way waaaay too close to the wall.

ok how far away from the wall should it be? Currently there is cement backerboard there and I will be putting tile on the wall and floor just have not got to that part yet

 

[bholler]

Yeah there is nothing at all safe about this install. The insulation is the least of the safety concerns

 

[begreen]

ok how far away from the wall should it be? Currently there is cement backerboard there and I will be putting tile on the wall and floor just have not got to that part yet

Cement board + tile offers very little protection unless it is on 1" spacers off the combustible wall and open, top and bottom so that air can freely convect behind it. If there is no UL testing label on this product it is considered unlisted and requires 36" clearance from the studs in the wall. This can be reduced to 12" with a proper, ventilated wall shield.

The actual clearances for the original product may have been less, but we have no way of knowing this without documentation.

 

[nspasic]

Thanks, that helps. I can definitely say that the "chimney" is illegal and not safe at all. It is made of stovepipe which should never pass through a wall and definitely is not approved for outdoor chimneys. It is hot and much too close to the stud wall.

I suspect that this fireplace has some very strict installation requirements. Setting it on cement board and then against the wall with more cement board separating it from the combustible studs is definitely not ok. But the product should be identified to get the correct installation requirements, especially if it is designed to fit inside of an existing masonry fireplace. Look around it closely for any labeling on the sides or back and perhaps in the door channel.

The insulation looks stained, but probably not burnt. Kaowool is stable up to around 2100º. I am not sure why the stove is smoking, but a guess would be a too short chimney with two 90º turns in it is not helping.

ok thanks for the input. This is a tiny home cabin shed. This was installed by a hvac tecnician / metal worker who also installed a wood stove in his house. The stove came with the 2 black stove pipes as you say and then outside is galvanized metal for the chimney. If this was a city building this would not be up to code, however this is out in rural land in the desert. As for the cement backboard that you see there is insulation behind it we put in. The stove was originally used in a big house with no problems. When I got it it. It was sitting for a while and they probably did not maintain it in terms of cleaning it. We found that out when we hooked it up and saw it needed to be cleaned. However I will see if I can contact the people and see if there is a model number to this and do more research. How far should the stove be from the backboard? As a note the there will be tile put on the backerboard both wall on floor.

 

[stoveliker]

Maybe Code is not enforced in rural areas, but that doesn't mean it's wise to build the chimney as it is. Most building Code is for safety - i.e. for your protection. (Yes there are possibly "useless rules" - but chimney code is not one of them.)
I am also concerned by the beds nearby. I don't know how this applies to single-room cabins, but it is illegal to install a stove in a bedroom. Possibly single room cabins are allowed, but ...

 

[bholler]

ok thanks for the input. This is a tiny home cabin shed. This was installed by a hvac tecnician / metal worker who also installed a wood stove in his house. The stove came with the 2 black stove pipes as you say and then outside is galvanized metal for the chimney. If this was a city building this would not be up to code, however this is out in rural land in the desert. As for the cement backboard that you see there is insulation behind it we put in. The stove was originally used in a big house with no problems. When I got it it. It was sitting for a while and they probably did not maintain it in terms of cleaning it. We found that out when we hooked it up and saw it needed to be cleaned. However I will see if I can contact the people and see if there is a model number to this and do more research. How far should the stove be from the backboard? As a note the there will be tile put on the backerboard both wall on floor.

State code is state code it doesn't matter if you sre in a city or rural. And you are missing the point that code is a minimum safety standard. It's there as a guideline to keep you and any other people sleeping in the cabin safe.

As far as clearance for the stove unless it has a ul tag on it it requires 36" of clearance to any combustible materials. That can be reduced with a nfpa ventilated wall shield. But that doesn't address the most dangerous part of the install which is the singlewall galvanized pipe used as a chimney

 

[Ashful]

How far should the stove be from the backboard? As a note the there will be tile put on the backerboard both wall on floor.

I believe it's 12" to the studs, with a properly installed shield. Shield should be spaced 1" of the wall on spacers, with air gap all around, not sitting on floor. bholler or begreen will have more details.

But to answer your question directly, drywall thickness + spacers may add up such that stove is something 10.5" from shield, minimum.

 

[GrumpyDad]

ok thanks for the input. This is a tiny home cabin shed. This was installed by a hvac tecnician / metal worker who also installed a wood stove in his house. The stove came with the 2 black stove pipes as you say and then outside is galvanized metal for the chimney. If this was a city building this would not be up to code, however this is out in rural land in the desert. As for the cement backboard that you see there is insulation behind it we put in. The stove was originally used in a big house with no problems. When I got it it. It was sitting for a while and they probably did not maintain it in terms of cleaning it. We found that out when we hooked it up and saw it needed to be cleaned. However I will see if I can contact the people and see if there is a model number to this and do more research. How far should the stove be from the backboard? As a note the there will be tile put on the backerboard both wall on floor.

All of your thoughts are common for someone new, I had similar as I didnt know much at all when I wanted to buy and install a stove a bit ago.

The insulation, the stone, the backerboard - is meaningless. That backerboard attaches to wood studs, thats combustible. The backerboard and tile will only serve to slightly delay the wood getting to an unsafe temperature, it DOES NOT reduce the distance you can put your stove next to that wall. So you would measure from the wall stud out 36" and know that it the minimum you can safely put a stove without risking catching the place on fire eventually (and likely unknowingly as you'll assume the smoke smell is from the stove, and the fire will be hidden behind the wall)
Id also seriously consider never using that HVAC person again. There are many things you can fudge outside of a city where no one is looking or caring, but fire is not one of them. Even if they recommended against using that pipe or placing the stove in that location and did it anyway, I still wouldnt use them. Ever.
Do yourself a favor and figure out what proper stove pipe to use, the proper method to exit the house and the ceiling support or wall box required to connect interior stove pipe with exterior (expensive) class A chimney pipe.

Drolet makes the Spark II with a little viewing window for $1k. Your stove pipe + chimney pipe will likely be $1k as well but hard to tell without measurements and seeing the full view of your roof including the pitch. Northline express has a tool to help you decide on parts.

If I were you, if I couldnt figure out who made that and read up about it, I wouldnt use it. But that's just me, and Im not the overly cautious type to be honest.

 

[begreen]

Yes, unfortunately, there is nothing safe or done right with this installation. Regardless of code or location, this is a fire waiting to happen. I can appreciate trying to save money, we all can, but not at the expense of a life.

 

[kennyp2339]

OP, perhaps the best thing to do is to explain from start to finish a safe install for your application, fellow posters if I miss something add to it, I'll number it so its easier to refer each step.
1. find the manual or at least make and model of the stove / fireplace, specifically we want to know the clearances to combustibles (if it was tested) this will include the distance from a combustible wall, side clearance, front clearance and whether the stove can be set on a minimum hearth pad or something with a certain K-factor (thickness w/ heat resistive properties) If the stove is unlisted then NFPA 211 rules need to be applied - unlisted woodstove clearances)
2. The woodstove collar connection - obviously its round as the pics suggest, but is the stove pipe installed correctly, the bottom "male" or crimped end should be into the inside of the stove collar and rest almost flush with the collar, no part of the stove pipe should be past the collar on the inside of the stove, the stove pipe (black pipe) should be secured with 3 sheet metal screws, if there is a big gap between the pipe and collar a small fiberglass rope gasket can be installed between the pipe and collar then sheet metal screws to hold everything in place.
3. The black stove pipe - clearances are a must - single wall pipe must have 18" clearance from any combustible, yes with the proper pipe shielding those clearances can be reduced by 2/3, again the male ends of the stove pipe should be pointed down or towards the stove, this will allow any liquid creosote to drip back to the stove without making a mess, 3 sheet metal screws should be used to hold each section of pipe in place.
4. The wall pass through - for combustible walls there are whats called "Through the wall kits) these kits have the proper hardware, parts and instructions to create a hole in the wall large enough w/ proper clearance and uses proper class a pipe to pass through the combustible wall, they also come with the proper transition peice to terminate the black pipe into, giving it a clean look, for the outside portion, a class A tee will come with the kit, along with the proper anchor plate to support it and straps for additional pipe sections.
5. Class A pipe - this pipe is usually now double wall insulated and designed for wood stoves (actually considered all fuel pipe) they come in sections and snap together or have metal bands that clasp and marry each piece.
6. Chimney height - most stoves need 15ft + feet total length, for your specific application, once 5ft about the roof a chimney brace is needed, the 15ft total length may be able to be trimmed down due to local environment, but the chimney must be at least 2ft higher then your roof's ridge - this reduces any embers from catching the roof on fire, also allows for decent draft in winds due to less turbulence from the roof, but I suspect thats not a big deal with your application.
7. Chimney cap w/ spark arrester - need enough said - prevent accidental brush fires which can be brutal in your area
Considerations - Fiberglass rope gasket - I know you expressed concerns about ill effects, but the fiberglass is made for that job to act has a door seal, or in the special case a seal between the stove pipe and stove collar - the risk is way lower then breathing in the fire's particulates in an enclosed environment.
The rest of the smoke pipe should not be sealed, just screw to hold it in place, any high temp silicon will eventually make a mess and cause rouge odors.
Hearth pad - sealed so no embers can pass through any cracks, thick enough to block any major heat from the bottom of the stove, long enough so embers that pop out the front can land on it and not burn the place down
Chimney length = better draft which means less likelihood of smoke entering the living space, since if its working properly it should be negative inside to positive outside.
Hope this helps.