interesting craigslist add

[CTBurner]

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Reply to: [email protected] [?]
Date: 2008-10-17, 10:03AM EDT



I have bought wood from 3 different people from here. I bought 2 cords from 1 guy and got 1 1/3 cords, next guy I bought 2 cords from and got 1 cord, the final guy I bought 1 cord and got 2/3 of a cord. All claimed to be selling full cords (4X4X8) of seasoned wood and guess what, none were full cords and nothing was seasoned.

So instead of having 5 cords of seasoned wood I have 3 cords of green wood. I have spent $1,200 dollars for just 3 cords which breaks down to $400 a cord. Unbelievable I should have just bought oil! I work hard for my money and was just trying to save a little by using wood to heat.

I would think twice before buying wood through this site. I am currently working with my state senator and representative on legislation to regulate these hacks. Please be careful I'd hate for more innocent consumers to be robbed the way I have been.





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[bayshorecs]

In other words:

"I willing over-paid for wood that was not seasoned and less than advertised. I want my money back" If he didn't like the deal, he should have told them to take it back and not pay them. Granted it should not have been sold that way, but he is the one who agreed.

I bet he is also a victim of the sub-prime junk. "I made a deal with the bank for a mortgage I could not offord. Now I need someone else to pay my bills!" How come no one ever has to pay MY bills....

Guess my post should be in the ash can...

 

[EddyKilowatt]

Well, when you buy gas for your car, you can count on a gallon being a gallon, and you don't have to analyze it yourself for, say, sulfur, or varnish content.

Is it unreasonable that people should hope to have a similar experience when the fuel is wood? Why shouldn't a cord be 128 cubic feet every time, and "seasoned" be < 20% moisture content? Not everyone knows the conversion ratio between loose wood in the truck and stacked wood in their yard, and not everyone has a moisture meter handy.

Part of the reason you can buy gasoline without a chemistry degree is because the industry's gotten its act together and defined standards for fuel quality. An equal part of the reason is because there are legal teeth behind the rules, and behind the weights and measures... a.k.a. "government regulations".

It would be nice if the fuel wood industry in concert with the wood burning industry would self-police itself; that would help reduce the pressure for what might wind up being heavy-handed action by the government.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Why not just stack the 3 cords of unseasoned woods and burn it next year? Save yourself the transport/delivery costs (again). Yep, ya got burned and paid way too much. Why compound your problems?

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Many states have laws about what a cord is, what seasoned means, etc. We've discussed this in threads. If you get shorted- then that violates the law already- no extra senators involved.

I would not be surprised if they started running a sting operation now that wood is taking off again. I'll help- they can dump the wood in my yard to make room for the next load in the operation.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Many states have laws about what a cord is, what seasoned means, etc. We've discussed this in threads. If you get shorted- then that violates the law already- no extra senators involved.

I would not be surprised if they started running a sting operation now that wood is taking off again. I'll help- they can dump the wood in my yard to make room for the next load in the operation.

"OK Mr FBI Undercover Sting agent. You are welcome to pick up the 3 cords you dropped off at my house earlier this year"
"Don't you mean the *5* cords, Mr San Pantalones?"
"Um yes, of course. But I think it was closer to 4"

 

[bayshorecs]

Talking to one of my neighbor's about 2 years ago and we were both complaining about the local gas station. Only station for 15 miles, long established in town and would always have $.10-$.20 per gallon higher gas than other stations. People would still buy from him because he is the "local" guy. Neighbor alway complained that he was being short changed on gas. So, he took a 1 gallon milk jug and filled it with 1 gallon of gas. It filled the jug 85%-90% full when the meter measured 1 gallon. Going inside and complaining about it got he quickly kicked out of the station, told the gov regulates the pump, don't come back.

So, higher prices on the sign and less gas per "gallon". Sounds like a winning business formula to me...

Since then, another gas station finally made it to town (the local guy kept buying all of the ground out from under the chain under he ran out of funds, he was on the city council...). Local guys fill rates went to normal, price is $.01-$.02 higher than the chain. Hmm...magic! Too bad the town already paid for all of his land and college eductations for his kids over the 30 years he had a monopoly...

Bad business men are bad business men. If you don't stand up for yourself, expect to stay bent over.

 

[jdemaris]

I should have just bought oil!

I am currently working with my state senator and representative on legislation to regulate these hacks. Please be careful I'd hate for more innocent consumers to be robbed the way I have been.

If you'd spent $400 on oil, today - you'd get around 16 million BTUs of heat energy. Same $400 spent on one cord of wood - assuming it's not softwood - has approx. 22 million BTUs of heat energy. So, you still didn't lose as compared to oil. If you paid $400 a cord for softwood - well . . . I've been rendered speechless.

That being said, I can't figure why anybody would trust a firewood cutter without checking. If I buy anything, I check, if possible. If not, I pay less to cover myself. Wood, tractors, trucks, . . . anything. I've been involved, one way or the other, with the tree and firewood industry for 40 years. I can't say I've ever seen anyone deliver a full cord on the first dump - unless it's someone that's stacking it as part of the deal. Then, he/she knows the load can be easily checked. Most - if not just about all dump the load - with at best - a guess that . . . if anything . . . is a bit under, not over. Then, if the buyer stacks, checks, and gripes, the guy might come back to add a little more. That's to be expected - and it's not an anomalie - at least not here in the northeast.

You are buying, in most cases, from an unregulated supplier. It's up to you to check and make sure you're getting what you pay for. If you manage to get the government involved, then everyone else pays for YOUR misfortune. Those that DO check and buy carefully, get penalized via raised taxes - to support some incompetent government official and a not-very-careful buyer - to monitor, and tax firewood sales.

Also, in regard the word "seasoned." Again, I know few wood guys that actually sell seasoned wood - even when they call it that. The word "seasoned" has a sort of floating and nebulous connontation. Most cutters I know - call wood green if they cut it down this week, and . . . if they have trees down in the woods somewhere, for a month or two - not even cut up yet, they call it "seasoned." And, often that wood that's been down laying on the ground, is wetter than it was when it was alive and standing. I just cut up some oak and maple that I had down in the woods for three years - and it is very wet.

Again, it boils down to you - to check what you're getting, and how much you are gettting. Once the government, or your state senator gets involved, it won't be worth buying. It will just turn into another aspect of socialism - where everyone pays for the mistakes or the misfortunes of a few.

Boy, am I glad I don't buy firewood - and cut all my own. Things have really changed, too. Back in the 1960s when I worked for Asplundh Tree Expert Company - we had to pay to throw our hardwood out in the landfill. Oak, maple, etc. Nobody wanted it, we couldn't even give it away.

On one sidenote - by daughter just had her firewood guy come back for the third time. She paid for 5 cords of maple and red oak. I lent her the money. She needed the wood fast - just closed on a house this week and it has wood heat. The guy dumped it all in a pile and I warned her to move fast and get it stacked. She and her husband did it, and it measured out to 3 1/2 cords. I called the guy up, he went back and dumped some more - and then it was up to 4 1/2 cords. So, I called him again, along with a few threats - and he just came back and dumped a full extra cord this time. So, it's now up to 5 1/2 cords. I consider the extra 1/2 cord payment for our aggravation.

 

[BurningIsLove]

I think everyone has a similar story... even a firewood dealer you have an existing relationship with and can trust will occasionally shortchange you, even if unintentionally. There is a local dealer I and several friends use, and my buddy orders 2 cords of seasoned splits. Normally the splits this guy delivers are top notch in terms of moisture content, rot free, good species w/ high btus, etc. This time, the pile is SOAKING wet, bark either fallen off or near falling off, infested w/ critters, etc. My buddy calls them back up after stacking it and realizing how bad the whole pile was. THe dealer comes over, sez "Yep, this is unacceptable" and delivers 2 fresh cords of his normal (above average) quality at no charge.

Best part, he let my buddy keep the two already stacked (wet) cords which over the next year dried out and turned out to be reasonably decent.

but the moral of the story is, ya gotta keep on these people.

 

[billb3]

Well, when you buy gas for your car, you can count on a gallon being a gallon, and you don't have to analyze it yourself for, say, sulfur, or varnish content.

Is it unreasonable that people should hope to have a similar experience when the fuel is wood? Why shouldn't a cord be 128 cubic feet every time, and "seasoned" be < 20% moisture content? Not everyone knows the conversion ratio between loose wood in the truck and stacked wood in their yard, and not everyone has a moisture meter handy.

Part of the reason you can buy gasoline without a chemistry degree is because the industry's gotten its act together and defined standards for fuel quality. An equal part of the reason is because there are legal teeth behind the rules, and behind the weights and measures... a.k.a. "government regulations".

It would be nice if the fuel wood industry in concert with the wood burning industry would self-police itself; that would help reduce the pressure for what might wind up being heavy-handed action by the government.

Have you actually done any testing to prove this ?

Buy your gas early in the morning: http://articles.latimes.com/2007/aug/22/autos/hy-wheels22
30% of customers are hosed: (broken link removed to http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/features/news/story.html?id=f2d2c39c-cfcd-4167-91ee-61c76eb6899a)

A town inspector here was fired for just putting stickers on the pumps. Without bothering to test. Kickbacks appear to be involved. Imagine that.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Buy your gas early in the morning: http://articles.latimes.com/2007/aug/22/autos/hy-wheels22

Actually, thats an urban myth and has no basis in science. Quite the reverse, basic science debunks it quite easily. First off, I challenge anyone to find a tank buried deep in the ground, even in southern CA, that changes even a few degrees over the course of the day. Subsurface temps dont change (ANYWHERE) rapidly, especially at those depths. And the chemistry that the article is referring to, good ole PV=nRT, applies to a GAS, not a liquid. Last I checked, most consumers are filling up their tanks with gasoline in liquid form, not gaseous form. Sure, there's a little vapor when ya top off, but thats what the vapor systems in both your car & the pump are there to detect/prevent.

As far as town inspections, that one I can believe. Whether the town inspector is on the take or not (or just lazy), it's more profitable for a filling station to scam the customers as the fine is ridiculously tiny compared to the potential profit in most states/towns. It's like in Massachusetts, where every single item in a retail store is required by law to have individual price tags affixed to them. But if you go into the Home Depot for example, you'll find the the price marked on the steel support below/above the merchandise or suspended from plastic tag which is subject to a fine. But the fine for each infraction is something silly like $100 and the cost in labor to individually mark each item is thousands, so Home Depot just pays the fine each time.

 

[CTBurner]

I just want to clear up the fact that I just copied pasted the craigslist ad here to alert unsuspecting buyers of the pitfalls., I cut almost all my own wood, if I buy it, I go see it first to make sure it is seasoned, and this usaully helps me not get shorted also, If you buy wood regulary try to find an honest supplyer and stick with them.

 

[humpin iron]

CTBurner, you are in Ct. There are already laws on the books, ck with the Dept. of Consumer Protection if you feel you were shorted on a cord of wood.

 

[CTBurner]

CTBurner, you are in Ct. There are already laws on the books, ck with the Dept. of Consumer Protection if you feel you were shorted on a cord of wood.

Again, this was not about me, it was posted on craigslist and i posted it here to warn some of the new to burning wood crowd

 

[humpin iron]

rgr my mistake

 

[jdemaris]

thats an urban myth and has no basis in
science.

Urban myth?

The idea of getting less then you pay for with hot gasoline or diesel is certainly NOT a myth. Perhaps that specific article citied was a bit specious, but that's doesn't prove, or disprove a thing. Gasoline is supposed to be sold by a constant - i.e. a certain weight per gallon. This is tightly controlled in Canada and parts of Europe, but not much in the USA. When a gas station takes delivery of gas, they are supposed to check the temperature at delivery, and adjust what they pay for the load, accordingly. But, that isn't done when it's sold to the consumer at the pump. The buyer of bulk gasoline pays the same price per BTU regardless of what temp it is at delivery. If that gas warms up, perhaps in an above ground tank - it will weigh less per gallon, have less BTUs per gallon, and the consumer gets less - period. No conspircacy, no myth. Many places in the world are now using temperature-compensation right at the pump, and the price the consumer pays is adjusted - just like it is for the bulk buyer. On a totally empirical level, I see this happen at my farm often. I have a couple of 300 gallon fuel tanks in a shaded building. I fill my truck or tractor, park it out in the sun - and shortly after, fuel forces its way out of the tank and spills all over the ground. That because it gets hot and expands.

Well, when you buy gas for your car, you
can count on a gallon being a gallon, and you don't have to analyze it yourself for, say, sulfur, or
varnish content.
Is it unreasonable that people should hope to have a similar experience when the fuel is wood?
Part of the reason you can buy gasoline without a chemistry degree is because the industry's
gotten its act together and defined standards for fuel quality

First of all, it's pretty hard to look at gasoline (if you even get to see it) and tell what you're getting. On the other hand, you certainly CAN look at wood and easily tell what you're getting.
But, on the subject of motor fuel always being correct and a constant? Nonsense. Gallons differ by temp. A cold gallon weighs more than a hot gallon. As to content? Winter mix has less BTU energy then summer mix. When leaded fuel was dropped, there were many issues of premature valve-seat recession wear - which the consumer suffered. Now, there is a premium added to the price of ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel - which we diesel owners are forced to use now. So, we pay extra, yet - the BTU content is not enforced, and is often 3% - 5% less then standard high sulfur diesel was a few years ago. And, to add insult to injury, the lube quality has been lowered and can harm some vehicles with older mechanical injection systems.

And, on top of all that, now most motor oils do NOT have the proper antiwear additives for many engines built 20 years ago - and this type of information is not overtly displayed anywhere that I've ever seen. The ZDDP antiwear additives have been quietly removed from USA engine oils the past few years - but not so in Europe.

My point to all this is - the mentality that having government controls on all this stuff means, we can always take for granted it all good, is just plain silly.

I hope to heck no aspect of government ever gets involved in the firewood industry. It already taxes my woodlands, forces wood stoves to be EPA rated, demands permits for most wood burning installations, etc.

 

[Redox]

I like urban myths! One opinion:

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/gastips.asp

There was a guy in AZ a few years ago that was pushing for temperature compensation on gas pumps. Now that it is so expensive, people are starting to look into it. It should be easy enough to incorporate a temperature probe into the measuring system of a modern electronic gas pump to pull this off. We just need for more people to realize it and push for it. Back in the days of manual gas pumps, you used to pump the gas up into a glass measuring tank and let it drain into the car. A commom trick was to pump it up there and let the sun warm it up. When you are measuring by volume, it makes a big difference.

One of the good things government does is regulate weights and measures. In Maryland, it is controlled by the Dept of Agriculture and forces anyone selling anything by the pound to periodically certify their scales. I ran into one of their techs in a gas station once and watched him as he calibrated a gas pump. After a while, I asked him about temperature compensation and he looked at me like I was from another planet. I let it drop...

Chris

 

[JJWOODCUTTER]

Not all firewood dealers are out to rip off their customers. Every load of mine is measured in boxes before being loaded and any new customers are always asked to come and check it out, but very few do as I was referred to them by one of my existing customers