Is Price Competition Killing Stove Quality? Will Our Stoves Be Burning in Twenty Years?

[BrotherBart]

I have never started a "discussion" topic here but it looks like we need this one.

This season there seems to be a spate of quality related problems with stoves and not just one brand but a bunch of'em. I guess what has me wondering is if the obvious lowering of materials quality to meet price competition in a lot of stove lines is also being reflected in build quality. Or if the materials issue is what is causing the other problems to show their ugly heads. First and foremost is the lighter weight steels in virtually every steel stove on the market (I know PE owners, I know. Big iron.) vis-a-vis just a few years ago when 3/8" tops and 1/4" bodies were the norm. Now 1/4" and 3/16" are the norm and in a lot of cases 3/16" for the entire stove in a bunch of manufacturer's stoves. One has to wonder if the same thing is going on with cast stoves also. And in construction methods with all of them. Cost has to be reduced somewhere to be competitive be it steel or cast.

Are they getting cleaner, but weaker? I don't know. Well, that isn't true. Fires in a tank have got to be safer than in a wash tub. No matter what the particulate emissions are.

And yes, this year I moved from a fairly clean burning pre-EPA stove to a lighter grade material EPA stove. And I wonder about it.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

actually BB i think we have gotten a bit more clever with how we design units , yes they are thinner metal , but if you loo at how the unit is built, the thinner steel wals are actually reinforced by the secondary manifolds. to bust that somthing would have to go seriously wrong, we werent able to break one in testing and it was attempted (was it ever) i imagine that others are doing similar things to ensure they are structurally sound.

 

[BrotherBart]

actually BB i think we have gotten a bit more clever with how we design units , yes they are thinner metal , but if you loo at how the unit is built, the thinner steel wals are actually reinforced by the secondary manifolds. to bust that somthing would have to go seriously wrong, we werent able to break one in testing and it was attempted (was it ever) i imagine that others are doing similar things to ensure they are structurally sound.

Ain't diss'in the stove Mike. I love the sucker. I just keep seeing a lot of issues popping up here this year that have me wondering about all of them.

 

[elkimmeg]

BB I think you raised a valid point But I'm going to offer up what I call the Katrina effect.
When fuel prices excalated so quickly all pellet stove inventorins were sold out in Oct. Wood stove sales also depleated inventories Remember how posters were telling the stories of how long they had to wait . The manufactures rushed to ramp up production to meet the orders and demand. Naturally when one rushed quality is not as good Harman and pellet manufactures had to fing other suppliers of blower motors and auger motors they were using parts from manufactures that they had no history with just to get the orders out the door. This year we are now seeing where quality control suffered with all manufactures IT took a year or season for them to show up. I know of dealers that received stoves half painted and they painted then before delivery.

Actually sales started out briskly this year for wood stoves but slower for pellet stoves. Think about it Katrinia effect

 

[stoveguy2esw]

yeah i know i just posted about that quad secondary , and the cfm unit that the side fell off of, both units ought to be replaced. i hedged on the dutchwest as at the time i looked at it i wasnt sure if it was "struictural" but i may be wrong, just dont know that stove. if load bearing or structural i'd likely not even suggest local welding. VC should just replace it anyway

 

[webbie]

Both Elk and I have burned Efel Kamina stoves, which are made of steel about 1/8 as thick as a fisher (or less), yet they often lasted 20 years or more. Many antique stoves are made of even thinner sheet metal.

As Mike mentions, it is not thickness, but design that makes the difference. The important point as far as longevity is allowing for relatively easy parts replacement for those parts which will tend to go.

I would say that, in general, the stoves of today are made as well or better than those of the past.

 

[Fire Bug]

BB I think you raised a valid point But I'm going to offer up what I call the Katrina effect.
When fuel prices excalated so quickly all pellet stove inventorins were sold out in Oct. Wood stove sales also depleated inventories Remember how posters were telling the stories of how long they had to wait . The manufactures rushed to ramp up production to meet the orders and demand. Naturally when one rushed quality is not as good Harman and pellet manufactures had to fing other suppliers of blower motors and auger motors they were using parts from manufactures that they had no history with just to get the orders out the door. This year we are now seeing where quality control suffered with all manufactures IT took a year or season for them to show up. I know of dealers that received spoves half painted and they painted then before delivery.

Actually sales started out briskly this year for wood stoves but slower for pellet stoves. Think agout it Katrinia effect

It definitely appears to me,(this is only my opinion), that these stoves, fireplace inserts, fireplaces, wheter fired by wood, pellets, gas, corn, or whatever else will burn and produce heat , are suffering from some form of manufactureing defect which should be caught by the R&D Dept. of the company through exstensive testing before being released to the public for sale.
If you look at the ratings for these stoves, fireplaces,inserts, on this website, it appears that their isn't a whole lot of people that are total satisified by their units, dealers, and manufacturers. It seems the only company that ranks near perfect is The Woodstock Co..
I don't know if price competition is the cause of poor quality control but there definitely seems to be an issue with quality control, especially for what the public is paying for these items.
I have a Heat & Glow FB Grand propane insert that had numerous factory production related problems that I can't believe a company like H&G would ever allow to leave their production line and be installed in a consumers home.
I recently purchased a Jotul Firelight Gas stove that was bought in Oct. 2006 that is sitting idle in my rec room because a Jotul Engineer advised me not to use, for fear that a manufactureing oversight might "Destroy" the insides of my stove if I continue its use.
I also see safety recalls of defective gas valves,(Robert Shaw), explodeing glass,(Heat & Glow, Jotul), that have or may cause personal injury or worse yet , even death. These are only items that were recalled because of safety issues, not manufactureing defects that do not pose a safety issue.
My God, I know these products are somewhat sofisticated, but I still think compared to other products, they havent grown all that much in complexity.
What worse many of the manufacturers won't even tell their dealers own technicians that they are having problems, (TSB's), unless it is a safety issue and they could be subject to litigation. How are the techs. suppose to fix a reocuring problem when the manufacturer won't send them a technical serviec bulletin telling them they goofed in manufacturing, and it should of been caught by R&D or at the very least, by the quality control dept..
It is truely becoming scary to have one of these products installed in your home.(Again, my opinion).
These are quality name companies not new commers to the market.
What happened to a quality product for a good, honest price?
Keep up the good work Woodstock Soapstone Stove Co.. Your ratings of product, company, and service make you stand alone in a market that seems to be going down the crapper.

John

 

[Corie]

Craig and I had this exact conversation at the show. Although thinner metals are certainly sufficient in construction, the consumers have dictated that a stove must be 1/4" steel or better to be considered "quality".


Ultimately the thinner stuff is just as sufficient, as long as the design is good. Don't worry BB, you'll have that stove for many many years.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

IMO, the problems we problems arent the norm in the industry, there the very small exception. Fourms are to help people. People who need help have a problem, so we see the problems more often then the consumer just wanting to praise there stove. This industry is not going downhill, if anything its making huge strides in renewable energy heating. Quality is up, not down. I dont expect a fourm to properly represent the state of a industry.

 

[BrotherBart]

IMO, the problems we problems arent the norm in the industry, there the very small exception. Fourms are to help people. People who need help have a problem, so we see the problems more often then the consumer just wanting to praise there stove. This industry is not going downhill, if anything its making huge strides in renewable energy heating. Quality is up, not down. I dont expect a fourm to properly represent the state of a industry.

Probably right MSG. Although I think the positive comments and experiences here far outnumber the negatives.

Hmmm... Come to think of it the only manufacturer's products that I can think of that haven't shown up here having problems is Vogelzang. But they are the ones that get foisted on their own petard all the time.

 

[webbie]

Wow, Bro - notice that you and others have now passed the 3,000 post number - and that does not include the stuff I erase in the Ash Can.

 

[BrotherBart]

Wow, Bro - notice that you and others have now passed the 3,000 post number - and that does not include the stuff I erase in the Ash Can.

I obviously have way too much time on my hands. Or you have a forum with very addictive subject matter.

Actually I think it is a product of being way involved in stoves this last year and also it being too easy to keep a forum session on the desktop for the occasional break from actually, like, working.

 

[begreen]

So true, so true. That and I've met some really nice folk here.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Im not talking about the regualrs here... im talking about the person who logs on for the first time. Rarley are they here to say hey! i love my stove! its usually a problem they are trying to solve.

 

[webbie]

Or, they are researching for a new stove- check out that mega-post guy! I think he wins the award for "shopping like a true engineer".

But, yes, I agree with MSG that this forum - and even the stove ratings - do not reflect an exact slice of the burning public. Then again, there is probably no where that you can get that demographic with any accuracy. On one hand we have someone looking for a pretty gas flame, and on the other we have Eric with the worlds largest personal wood stash.

 

[restorer]

It's my opinion we have no data to say they quality has fallen in manufacturing. We also have no data to say the complaint rate is soaring. Why? We have no historical information from dealers and manufacturers about what's happened in the past. Add to that the fact that we are only getting anecdotal information about current problems, we can see a trend. Stove owners are seeking out sources like this forum for help and answers.

I agree with MSG, the aggrieved seek a place to vent and support for that venting. On this forum, we let you gas(pun intended) and then try and find a solution. Frankly each manufacturer should have a hot link to this site from theirs for a real world solution the retailer can get not tainted by a PR department (real or imagined).

I, also agree, that there has been forced change in suppliers by manufacturers to vendors not used to the demands of parts in stoves. Pellet stoves seem the most obvious. Motors, switches, relays, circuit board are not likely made by the manufacturer, but subcontracted to a company specializing in their manufacture but done under specification to the stove company. On stoves that have been in the market two or three years, the bugs seem to be worked out. New stove models and new systems seem to have some problem, but without knowing the volume of manufacture and the number of units in use, we are only speculating that a manufacturer has a problem unit on it's hands. It may be that the one stove we hear the fewest complaints about may be the worst performer based on complaints per unit in use.

If I were a manufacturer I would have more than one competent technical employee who can make real decisions monitoring this site. I would certainly expect my customer service people to monitor it and I would make as many positive contributions as possible, not simply defend the company.StoveGuy2ESW is the ideal representative of this help at all times philosophy.

Seems a little long, but I guess the forum topic just doesn't fit for me. I think those buying stoves know it's not a space heater from HD. They know the investment they need to make and more often than not base a decision on as much information as they can gather. We don't see a lot of home decorator traffic here, and it's not an issue of "Do I get the white one, the chrome one, or the black glass front one?" Stove buyers are driven in ways that are totally different from the impulse buying public. Saving a few puck in manufacturing is not the motive here. I think that is why we have 20 +/- makers verses the 200 before EPA II.

Promise no more books.

UR

 

[webbie]

OH, here's an interesting Reno tidbit....

When folks stopped by the booth this year, Hearth.com was - for the first time - nothing new to them. Rather I had retailers in the industry stop by and tell me "Yes, we look at the stove ratings before we take on a new line" and stuff like that. I was glad to see that we have finally penetrated (somewhat) into the mainstream....

These were typically dealers that were relatively new to the biz. I think there is finally a new generation taking over from us old salts!

 

[wg_bent]

Both Elk and I have burned Efel Kamina stoves, which are made of steel about 1/8 as thick as a fisher (or less), yet they often lasted 20 years or more. Many antique stoves are made of even thinner sheet metal.

As Mike mentions, it is not thickness, but design that makes the difference. The important point as far as longevity is allowing for relatively easy parts replacement for those parts which will tend to go.

I would say that, in general, the stoves of today are made as well or better than those of the past.

Good point on the Efle Craig. My father's Warm Morning was this really cool fire brick that had "chimneys" built into it in the corners. Rest of the interior was either cast or brick. outside surface was sheet metal. That stove was never a problem. Only top was cast.

 

[Eric Johnson]

on the other we have Eric with the worlds largest personal wood stash.

I expect my wood usage to decrease by about half beginning next winter and to be perfectly honest with you, I'm a little bummed about the prospect of only producing ten cords a summer. My wife wasn't buying the "just need to get two years ahead on our wood supply" line last summer, so you know 3 and 4 is out of the question. Which means I have to submit to the indignity of having an average wood pile and get serious about painting the house.

And no, I'm not interested in going into the firewood business. Way too much work for the money.