issue w/ installer -- advice appreciated

[phishman]

Hello everyone,

First, another genuine thank you to the contributors for the invaluable resource that is this forum. You've all earned some serious karma points with the fire gods. Unfortunately, this post is going to be another one of those by a newbie who failed to take full advantage of it before buying a stove and trusting it to be properly installed by a so-called professional.

the salient facts:

-- House was built in the 1700s with a masonry chimney. Damper plate was at the bottom and stuffed with installation below it. There was soot and brick dust, preventing the opening of the damper. Installers came to inspect, took measurements and said that chimney could be operational with removal of damper, an insulated liner & an insert.

-- After confirming that the insert would meet minimum clearances, we settled on a Hampton HI300 with oversized faceplate & blower. It was agreed that we would take care of constructing the hearth extension and installer insisted that it had best be done after the insert installation, so that they could make sure proper clearances would be met.

-- A week before install, we called to inquire about (a) whether we should construct the hearth beforehand and (b) installing a block-off plate due to the drafts that were coming through the chimney and the soot & dust dropping onto the top of the insert. We were told that (a) no and (b) a block-off plate would not be needed, but the installers would clean the chimney and install insulation at both the top & bottom.

-- Due to circumstances, we were not able to be present during the entire installation. The insert was installed crooked to the mantel. When asked why, the installer said that the hearth was crooked but that we could just "shim it up on one side" when doing the hearth extension.

-- Upon reading the manual after the install, we found that the according to the manufacturer, the insert must sit level to the hearth. It was also found that the side facing clearance is about 1/2" short of the minimum 8" when looking at the drawing (although it is very unclear of where the measurement should be taken, see below).

-- Spoke to the Regency rep for the area and asked him where the side measurement should be taken as the table in the manual states "to Side of Unit" but the drawing points to the inside column of the faceplate which is ~ 7" closer to the side. He kept responding that the measurement is where the manual states (???) and deferred any other questions to the installer.

-- On a side note, we also discovered that a regular faceplate was installed, which is good as the oversized required 11" side clearance, but bad because we were charged for an oversized one. We also found about the rebate from Regency for the blower which we were not given.

-- We continued to feel drafts from the chimney through the edges and beneath the insert, as well as heard dust fall down onto the stove. We decided to pull out the stove and remove the top plate to see what was going on. Although there was an insulated liner installed, it clearly appears the masonry flue was not cleaned at all before installing the liner.

-- Also, there was no insulation at the top and the insulation at the bottom had multiple air gaps.

-- We found a sticker on the cap stating it was a 5.5" cap from Integrity (makers of Chim-Flex I believe), however the woman there said there was no way to confirm whether the liner was an Integrity as we received no warranty information with our install packet.

-- At this point, we were planning to install a block-off plate with more insulation above the plate and within the firebox and then doing the hearth so that it's level across the bottom and has the proper clearances, but are very concerned about the creasote buildup in the old masonry flue. A short phone call to the installer about this condition resulted in a response that "we have nothing to worry about with an insulated liner. the installer's been doing this for 44 years and you are being unreasonable" which clearly seems to contradict what has been written in these forums in the past.

-- Since it seems that this may require some extreme measures to resolve these issues with the installer, I wanted to see if I could clarify some things with the crew here before initiating any further contact with them and going forward:

1) it is a correct understanding that even with an insulated liner, an old masonry flue should be cleaned prior to install and not doing so will incur a risk of a chimney fire or is that only when there is an uninsulated liner?

2) if so, short of pulling out the liner altogether and risk it tearing, is there any possible way to clean this? it appears that the area just above the firebox could be done with difficulty but 1/2 way up the chimney, the liner appears to be directly touching the old flue.

3) Does anyone with a Hampton know whether the min. side facing clearance of 8" is to the side of the actual stove (what the manual text states) or to the inside edge of the faceplate column (what the drawing shows)?

4) Is installing a metal heat shield on the side sufficient to compensate for the shortage of clearance or does there need to be an air gap between the metal and the mantel side (wood)?

We realize that there is an always the error in being too cautious, however, we have discovered that with everything else with this house so far, any shortcuts taken by the previous owner seem to have a high price somewhere down the line, and when it comes to fire, we would prefer not to go down that road.

Have attached a link to the manual below as well as some photos of the interior of the flue.
Any help or suggestions on how to resolve a bad situation would be much appreciated.
Apologies for the long-winded post, and thanks for considering.

(broken link removed to http://www.regency-fire.com/Files/Manuals/HI300-918-240.aspx)

 

[Fsappo]

1) it is a correct understanding that even with an insulated liner, an old masonry flue should be cleaned prior to install and not doing so will incur a risk of a chimney fire or is that only when there is an uninsulated liner? Don't know if there is a "rule" but I have always cleaned before lining unless it was 90% clean orange tile. Why wouldn't they do it? Do it and do a nice neat job and charge accordingly.

2) if so, short of pulling out the liner altogether and risk it tearing, is there any possible way to clean this? it appears that the area just above the firebox could be done with difficulty but 1/2 way up the chimney, the liner appears to be directly touching the old flue. No idea how to do it without pulling the liner aside from scrubbing around the liner with a cut down poly brush

3) Does anyone with a Hampton know whether the min. side facing clearance of 8" is to the side of the actual stove (what the manual text states) or to the inside edge of the faceplate column (what the drawing shows)? I don't know, the installer doesn't know and your rep doesn't know. I would call FPI and get an engineer on the phone if no one here can give you a definitive answer

4) Is installing a metal heat shield on the side sufficient to compensate for the shortage of clearance or does there need to be an air gap between the metal and the mantel side (wood)? This is me going against everything I preach, but if you are talking about 7.5" instead of 8"...from what I understand most stove clearances are calculated something like "if safe =# then clearance in manual will state #x3" or something. I would view it as going 66MPH in a 55 zone. But that is opinion only.

as far as the insert not being level, how far off is it? I didn't have a chance to look at the manual, but does the Hampton have levelers? Cant remember.

Free blower, make sure you get that

Sounds like this wasn't installed by a brick and mortar hearth shop, more of an HVAC or sweep who has access to Regency products.

 

[bholler]

1) it is a correct understanding that even with an insulated liner, an old masonry flue should be cleaned prior to install and not doing so will incur a risk of a chimney fire or is that only when there is an uninsulated liner?

Yes it is absolutely required and it is lazy and irresponsible not to do so

2) if so, short of pulling out the liner altogether and risk it tearing, is there any possible way to clean this? it appears that the area just above the firebox could be done with difficulty but 1/2 way up the chimney, the liner appears to be directly touching the old flue.

No there is no good way to do it with the new liner in there

3) Does anyone with a Hampton know whether the min. side facing clearance of 8" is to the side of the actual stove (what the manual text states) or to the inside edge of the faceplate column (what the drawing shows)?

You need to go by the drawing in the manual unless told otherwise by regency

4) Is installing a metal heat shield on the side sufficient to compensate for the shortage of clearance or does there need to be an air gap between the metal and the mantel side (wood)?

Check with regency on that one also

You can level the insert with metal shims we do it all the time with no problems

you also need to insist on getting the warrantee info from the installer and ask them why they used 5.5 instead of 6

 

[Cockshutt]

If you are paying someone to work in your home, you deserve quality work. Out of level, not square. = not good enough. There are too many guys taking short cuts these days. Charging top dollar for poor work. I just ran off a carpenter for garbage work.

 

[bholler]

Out of level, not square. = not good enough.

Well i purposely leave things out of level many times unless it needs to be for functionality because on old houses it would look worse if i made it level. And i don't think there are any more people doing crappy work not than there always was i work on lots of old house that had allot of shortcuts taken originally

 

[Cockshutt]

M

Well i purposely leave things out of level many times unless it needs to be for functionality because on old houses it would look worse if i made it level. And i don't think there are any more people doing crappy work not than there always was i work on lots of old house that had allot of shortcuts taken originally

. My old house was built in 1870, not much square or level. But it was likely levelled up and measured with pieces of string and straightish pieces of wood! My point is, that in this day and age we have the finest tools at our disposal and yet there are too many contractors more concerned with chasing down the next job than doing the one they should be.

 

[bholler]

My point is, that in this day and age we have the finest tools at our disposal and yet there are too many contractors more concerned with chasing down the next job than doing the one they should be.

I agree there are a lot of gus cutting corners now but my point is there always was. I see all kinds of shotty half assed work in houses of all ages there have always been and always will be guys that dont want to take the time to do it right

 

[rwhite]

Everyone's answers so far are spot on. The only one I may disagree with is the level. I have an old house like yours. You just have to pick the spot you want to be square to. It can be the floor or the mantle or maybe even the wall but not both. I always ask my wife when hanging pictures if she wants it level or square with the floor or the ceiling. l can only only do one.

 

[phishman]

Thanks very much for the feedback gentlemen.

Fsappo : Yes, agreed that if everything else were o.k., the clearance might be doable. However, the inspector in our township has a reputation for being a stickler and we do not want to get off on the wrong foot with him, as we have a ton of work to be done. I would rather go to him and ask his opinion after I speak with Regency and deal with it accordingly.

As to why would the installer do this? Have no idea why someone would take advantage of another's ignorance and put their house & lives at risk because he's too lazy to do the proper job. We just feel fortunate that we did not take his advice and light up the insert (which he strongly suggested we do immediately, even before the hearth extension was built and it passed inspection). As a side note, he also said that durock was an inferior material to use anywhere in a hearth extension

And yes, it is a brick & mortar shop. We went to them because the other chimney guys nearby that did our inspection before buying turned out to have an F from the BBB with 6 complaints in the last 24 months.

bholler : Thanks for confirming that cleaning is absolutely required. That was my feeling after reading past threads this weekend, but we're going up against someone who keeps touting their "44 years of experience". All the other things, we could have dealt with and done properly ourselves, but the lack of cleaning appears to have left us in quite a pickle.

Will be calling FPI today to see if I can make any headway.

rwhite : Yes, indeed, in an old house, you have to pick what you want it level to. In this case, it was obviously crooked to the mantel and looked like crap. They stuck 4 bricks underneath to support the insert (our bricks actually), but 1 wasn't even bearing any of weight at all.

Cockshutt : After last the 3 months of experience of uncovering the "improvements" that's been done to our house over the past 30 years, I have to side with that lack of care & quality not being a recent phenomenon. Last weekend, we unearthed 2 groundwater drainage pipes that were left to drain right into the foundation about a foot away. No connections nearby, just left there seeping water, then buried with stone dust which was not allowing for any drainage. If this house was not built so solidly 200+ years ago, it probably wouldn't be standing today. That's just one example of about a dozen similar things that we found in the 3 months we've been here.

Much of the construction work was done by the guys who bartered their services with the previous owner in order to hunt on the land every year. They got all bent out of shape when we told them to hit the road after discovering all the halfass work they did and responded by dumping nails all over the property when they came to pick up their stands.

And yeah, we are prepared to do whatever it takes to ensure that quality work is done before they see another dime, it's just a shame that such time & effort need to be wasted to just get to the point of what should be common sense. Our mistake was making the assumption from an idealistic POV, rather than accepting the reality and not trusting someone else's schtick. I understand now why the DIY movement is growing so rapidly.

 

[bholler]

but we're going up against someone who keeps touting their "44 years of experience"

44 years of doing something wrong doesn't mean a thing we have been in business 38 and have had very few complaints through the years. And no i do not have 38 years of experience in this field and i doubt the guys that did your install had 44 years experience either the company may be that old but i would bet the installers have not been there that long

 

[DougA]

My thought would be to get the inspector to look at it and then have them fighting on your side.

 

[bholler]

My thought would be to get the inspector to look at it and then have them fighting on your side.

You could do that but i would recomend that instead you call them and tell them either to come out pull the liner clean the chimney and do the install right or you are canceling payment

 

[phishman]

We only paid a ~20% deposit. The stove sitting on the floor next to me is worth at least twice as much. Still waiting for Regency to get back on the clearance issue.

Today, I read the installation manuals for pretty much all the liners out there. All of them said almost word for word, "The chimney must be thoroughly cleaned before the installation of the liner." A couple of them added caps and bolds for emphasis.

Thanks for the suggestions on how to approach. Gonna sleep on it and make a counterattack first thing in the morning.

BTW, bholler, it was the old man and his son who did the install. I heard them say on three separate occasions that they don't trust anyone else to do a good job

I hope that, if anything, this serves as a cautionary tale for any other neophyte out there that might read this thread. Take the time and do the research beforehand, folks. Be an informed consumer. In the age of the internet, all the information is out there, so there is no excuse. And don't let your desires get in the way of following your gut.

 

[bholler]

BTW, bholler, it was the old man and his son who did the install.

Ok i stand corrected

 

[Hogwildz]

Don't know if this was mentioned, but many inserts come with leveling bolts similar to a clothes wash or dryer.
My Summit came with them, but didn't need them.
There is no excuse for them to install it out of level.